Reasons Roose Bolton is not so hated in the north afterall.

[TallTyrion]

So you have the north in complete disarray, overrun with Iron Born, with petty grudges between some of them, and Roose coming home with almost more veteran troops than all the houses can muster combined. They could not openly revolt against Roose even if they wanted to. Unless of course the planets line up, Stannis invades the north, manages to rally the mountain clans, and the winter storm from hell descends upon them. Even with all that it is still a toss up lol.

Yeah I'm not saying the Northmen are in a position to do anything about it currently. Just that it's clear that Roose betrayed Robb. As for the full extent of his involvement, that will remain unclear. The only way people find out that Roose was the one who actually stabbed Robb is if Great Jon makes it back to the north, assuming he saw it.

I don't know that it's "planets lining up" unlikely that they take out Roose. If Manderly is able to crush the Freys then Roose loses a great deal of support and someone can always betray him from within Winterfell. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Ramsey kills Roose in a foolish attempt to take the North for himself.

[Mourneblade]

I dont even think Roose thinks it's feasible for his involvement at the RW to be a secret. I think part of his motive for personally killing Robb was so he could put on a show to scare people. When the other northern lords hear about that it will paint a perfect picture of how ruthless and dangerous he is. Personally killing a king instills terror in people and Roose is set on ruling through fear.

Not in the long term, no, but Roose's plan was to secure the North is a short amount of time. By the time everyone figured out that he was responsible for Robb's death, and the Arya was fake, there would be no one left to oppose his rule.

That was the plan, Stannis and the weather, however have put a huge wrench in it though.

[Mourneblade]

Yeah I'm not saying the Northmen are in a position to do anything about it currently. Just that it's clear that Roose betrayed Robb. As for the full extent of his involvement, that will remain unclear. The only way people find out that Roose was the one who actually stabbed Robb is if Great Jon makes it back to the north, assuming he saw it.

I don't know that it's "planets lining up" unlikely that they take out Roose. If Manderly is able to crush the Freys then Roose loses a great deal of support and someone can always betray him from within Winterfell. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Ramsey kills Roose in a foolish attempt to take the North for himself.

This is after the planets lined up lol. Imagine no bad weather and no Stannis. Roose easily removes the Lords who are not loyal and secures the North. Slam dunk.

[TallTyrion]

This is after the planets lined up lol. Imagine no bad weather and no Stannis. Roose easily removes the Lords who are not loyal and secures the North. Slam dunk.

Oh I see what you mean now. I would have loved to see Roose's face when he found out Stannis was in the North. Probably the last thing he expected. Goes from contending with the old men and women left in charge of the major houses to having to fight one of the best commanders in the realm.

[Bedwyck]

Not in the long term, no, but Roose's plan was to secure the North is a short amount of time. By the time everyone figured out that he was responsible for Robb's death, and the Arya was fake, there would be no one left to oppose his rule.

That was the plan, Stannis and the weather, however have put a huge wrench in it though.

Eventually though, the other houses will recover from their losses at the RW and they are not ever going to like submitting to Boltons (especially given the recent treachery) when traditionally it has long been the Starks as keepers of the north. Roose also knows that Bran and Rickon escaped. Even if "Arya" is seen as real that will create problems for him even if it takes Bran and Rickon years to come back into the fold. The only way the Bolton's can hold the north is if the other houses are indefinitely highly afraid of them.

[Mourneblade]

Oh I see what you mean now. I would have loved to see Roose's face when he found out Stannis was in the North. Probably the last thing he expected. Goes from contending with the old men and women left in charge of the major houses to having to fight one of the best commanders in the realm.

Yeah, but even then he lays a really good trap for Stannis with the Karstarks but is foiled by Jon's plan that Stannis gather the mountain clans.

Eventually though, the other houses will recover from their losses at the RW and they are not ever going to like submitting to Boltons (especially given the recent treachery) when traditionally it has long been the Starks as keepers of the north. Roose also knows that Bran and Rickon escaped. Even if "Arya" is seen as real that will create problems for him even if it takes Bran and Rickon years to come back into the fold. The only way the Bolton's can hold the north is if the other houses are indefinitely highly afraid of them.

There was no, had the plan worked, eventually. Roose had a time sensitive window of opportunity. He brought all the remaining Lords together, at F Arya's wedding to figure out who would bend, and who would have to be replaced. That is really the main reason for the whole fake wedding to begin with, to bring the Lords together under a pretense that was innocuous. Those disloyal would be the ones leading the van vs the remaining Iron Born, since this is how Roose has dealt with eliminating rivals from book one. All the while no one can lay blame on his feet because they died fighting.

Anyone left could then be easily removed and new Lords raised from loyal Dredfort men, or Loyal minor Holdfast Lords. It would have worked easily, had it not been for Stannis and Jon.

[marsyao]

of course, I'm not denying that at all, but only LS knows that for certain.

That is not true, all of Roose's men (several thousands strong) knew it, all of Frey's solders and servants know it, there got to be some Rob's men survived the massacre, they would know that too. Since so many people know this fact, it is impossible to keep it as a secrect

[Mourneblade]

That is not true, all of Roose's men (several thousands strong) knew it, all of Frey's solders and servants know it, there got to be some Rob's men survived the massacre, they would know that too. Since so many people know this fact, it is impossible to keep it as a secrect

The Dredfort men like their skins, I seriously doubt many loose lips in that camp. The Frey line has been that Robb turned into a wolf and attacked everyone at the feast, yeah I know, but thats their line and they have been sticking to it, and that Robb dishonored them yadda yadda.

The remaining survivors could not pass moat calin, although, it is possible that quite a few might have sought out the Reeds. The remainder would be scattered, with some joining the BwB, others turning bandits etc. This might be where the BF comes in, or Howland Reed...

[marsyao]

I never know something known by tens of thousands of people could be kept in secrect

[Mourneblade]

I never know something known by tens of thousands of people could be kept in secrect

Its not exactly a secret but the disinformation going around drowns out the truth. There are all kinds of crazy stories mentioned in print that are floating around, but none of them implicate Roose or Lame Walder as the Architects, nor the level of Roose's involvement.

When the hostages are freed the real story will come out.

[The Fourth Head]

The Dredfort men like their skins, I seriously doubt many loose lips in that camp. The Frey line has been that Robb turned into a wolf and attacked everyone at the feast, yeah I know, but thats their line and they have been sticking to it, and that Robb dishonored them yadda yadda.

The remaining survivors could not pass moat calin, although, it is possible that quite a few might have sought out the Reeds. The remainder would be scattered, with some joining the BwB, others turning bandits etc. This might be where the BF comes in, or Howland Reed...

Exactly, the only ones who could tell are just as guilty of the same crimes. Does Manderley say "And I heard that it was Roose Bolton who killed Robb Stark and orchestrated the whole thing! No. It;s just vague suspicion that all Boltons are untrustworthy, and that he came out of it suspiciously unharmed.

That's the thing with this crime. It was a crime committed infront of thousands, We all know what happened- we saw it first hand, but the only person still alive that wasn't a culprit or imprisoned is un dead in the south- presumably...

And thats the story- the vague suspicion that is not proof enough to motivate anyone to be compelled to act, which could lead to the same mistakes being made all over again in future. That is life- people getting away with crimes everyone suspects because they are too powerful (Roose has seen to it that House Bolton is a force to be reckoned with in numbers relative to the rest) and the exact details are unclear.

[Bedwyck]

Yeah, but even then he lays a really good trap for Stannis with the Karstarks but is foiled by Jon's plan that Stannis gather the mountain clans.

There was no, had the plan worked, eventually. Roose had a time sensitive window of opportunity. He brought all the remaining Lords together, at F Arya's wedding to figure out who would bend, and who would have to be replaced. That is really the main reason for the whole fake wedding to begin with, to bring the Lords together under a pretense that was innocuous. Those disloyal would be the ones leading the van vs the remaining Iron Born, since this is how Roose has dealt with eliminating rivals from book one. All the while no one can lay blame on his feet because they died fighting.

Anyone left could then be easily removed and new Lords raised from loyal Dredfort men, or Loyal minor Holdfast Lords. It would have worked easily, had it not been for Stannis and Jon.

Raising up Dreadfort men or other outsiders to be Lords of enemy lands seems impractical. The people who have for centuries been sworn to the Manderlys or Umbers arent just going to start being loyal to Dreadfort Lords who the enemy Boltons are trying to impose on them. This could easily backfire.

It seems to me that the only way to do this would be to raise up Bolton ally Lords from within the previous Lord's own household. Lords like Arnolf Karstark, although even plans like that are frivolous as we saw with Alys Karstark's objection, escape, and eventual marry of another husband who together will be the rightful heirs of Karhold should Harrion be killed.

Roose will always have few true ally Lords. He'll need to continue to rule through fear, not likeness.

[The Fourth Head]

Roose has all sorts of options. If the Manderlys die fighting Stannis (perhaps for Rickon's sake), or end up in the lake, then that is Roose's main threat crippled right there. He always has the fallback of throwing the lords a bone, of offering the lords "justice" to Ramsey. He can always raise minor lords up- like the Karstarks uncle, or perhaps smaller lords of the Hornfoot lands- thus securing their loyalty, and have them fight your battles, thus ensuring division between the former Hornfoot lords and any dissenters.

At the end of the day, the feudal system is based on power and fear. A man only does what his lord commands because the lord can command other men to kill you. That lord only does what his overlord says because that overlord can command more men in a fight- and so on.

If LS makes it north and the north has rallied around Rickon, then perhaps IF Roose got captured (unlikely) LS will sentence him to death. Otherwise, he will die fighting or wriggle out- no way would the Lords have the balls to sentence him to death for a crime they didn't witness, or Stannis sentence Roose to death for a crime he tried to initiate himself magically.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Exactly, the only ones who could tell are just as guilty of the same crimes.

Yes. Just as Merrett Frey. He should've kept his mouth shut in his best interest, shouldn't he? Yet somehow he told everything he knew. Ain't humans illogical creatures?

And anyway, keeping secrets is hard. Consider Jon Snow's parentage: Ned managed to keep his mouth shut, but it was an enormous effort. The more people know, the task gets exponentially harder. A thousand men simply will not keep a secret. And, again, the fact that Roose Bolton got a sackful of valuable gifts from Tywin directly after the Red Wedding is sufficiently damning in itself.

Does Manderley say "And I heard that it was Roose Bolton who killed Robb Stark and orchestrated the whole thing! No. It;s just vague suspicion that all Boltons are untrustworthy, and that he came out of it suspiciously unharmed.

You're rewriting the books to fit your POV better. It's not "a vague suspicion": "Roose Bolton lies about his part in the Red Wedding, and his bastard lies about the fall of Winterfell". The Freys lie, Roose lies, Ramsay lies - Manderly stated it as a fact.

And thats the story- the vague suspicion that is not proof enough to motivate anyone to be compelled to act, which could lead to the same mistakes being made all over again in future. That is life- people getting away with crimes everyone suspects because they are too powerful (Roose has seen to it that House Bolton is a force to be reckoned with in numbers relative to the rest) and the exact details are unclear.

Right now, Roose Bolton is in the same position as, once upon a time, the Tyrell governor left behind by the Young Dragon in Dorne. That didn't end too well for Lord Tyrell, even though he, too, was a force to be reckoned with. And Bolton is in even worse position, because the Iron Throne is probably at its historical weakest, and help from the South will not be coming.

[Mourneblade]

Raising up Dreadfort men or other outsiders to be Lords of enemy lands seems impractical. The people who have for centuries been sworn to the Manderlys or Umbers arent just going to start being loyal to Dreadfort Lords who the enemy Boltons are trying to impose on them. This could easily backfire.

It seems to me that the only way to do this would be to raise up Bolton ally Lords from within the previous Lord's own household. Lords like Arnolf Karstark, although even plans like that are frivolous as we saw with Alys Karstark's objection, escape, and eventual marry of another husband who together will be the rightful heirs of Karhold should Harrion be killed.

Roose will always have few true ally Lords. He'll need to continue to rule through fear, not likeness.

That would be the first choice... try and keep the house intact, however if that is not possible, you raise up loyal minor lords, if that is not possible, you give it to loyal cronies. Without anyone having the forces to oppose him, and the fact that Roose is extremely cautious, this would have been a huge win for team Bolton.

[The Fourth Head]

Yes. Just as Merrett Frey. He should've kept his mouth shut in his best interest, shouldn't he? Yet somehow he told everything he knew. Ain't humans illogical creatures?

And anyway, keeping secrets is hard. Consider Jon Snow's parentage: Ned managed to keep his mouth shut, but it was an enormous effort. The more people know, the task gets exponentially harder. A thousand men simply will not keep a secret. And, again, the fact that Roose Bolton got a sackful of valuable gifts from Tywin directly after the Red Wedding is sufficiently damning in itself.

You're rewriting the books to fit your POV better. It's not "a vague suspicion": "Roose Bolton lies about his part in the Red Wedding, and his bastard lies about the fall of Winterfell". The Freys lie, Roose lies, Ramsay lies - Manderly stated it as a fact.

Right now, Roose Bolton is in the same position as, once upon a time, the Tyrell governor left behind by the Young Dragon in Dorne. That didn't end too well for Lord Tyrell, even though he, too, was a force to be reckoned with. And Bolton is in even worse position, because the Iron Throne is probably at its historical weakest, and help from the South will not be coming.

The flip side is that R+L=J is still a well kept secret 17 years on, or that the news that Tommen is an illegitimate bastard born of incest has been spread to every lord in westeros, and yet still, the Tyrells and Lannisters defend his legitimacy with the unanimous support of the Reach and the Westerlands. Sometimes, truth and justice mean F-all when it comes to power and consensus. Roose Bolton, in a position of power will deny those crimes as opportunistic lies and have the rumour mongers flayed. Roose in a position of weakness? Perhaps more of a problem, but I doubt he will stick around to answer to them.

your point about Merrett is a good one. Perhaps if a Stark consents to torturing Bolton or Frey men to extract a confession, then Roose would be sentenced, but only if he was in a position where he could be arrested without resistance- and I doubt that will ever come to pass.

Bolton is not a Tyrell in Dornish land. If anything, Stannis is the interloper, the Southerner, and he has been incredibly lucky so far given that he was going to march on the Dreadfort and had Roose's Karstark ruse rumbled for him. The Boltons have been hated for thousands of years, but they have always been strong enough to rebel against the Starks, kill many Starks and survive defeat intact. So the Tyrell in Dorne comparison does not work for me. The Boltons must be doing something right to get away with all their crimes unscathed and I think we are witnessing exactly why that happens- it's this vague unknowability of the crime committed by the ones left to judge for themelves, mixed in with division and fear from his fellow lords, clever protection and allocation of men making him too powerful to bring down entirely which explains a lot of it. I also think there is more to House Bolton than meets the eye, otherwise, they would not have the honour of being the Starks main antagonists for so many thousands of years, and yet still be surviving. Whether it is due to something magical, sacrificial, religious, or by surviving long enough for memories to fade, the irony is, the North does not remember because the North has forgotten everything about the old gods other than to pray to a tree. It forgot about the Others, the COTF, and Im sure as hell they will all forget about Roose Bolton and his vaguely suspicious involvement in someone else's crime with time. after all, the Boltons are known to have killed Starks and worn their skins, yet Ned and Robb both put a considerable degree of faith in him.

With winter nigh, the WW's about to bear down on the wall, and the North being the next stop, the motto of "the north remembers" is the biggest joke their is. They should be garrisoning the wall with Manderly's, Umbers, Karstarks etc, but alas...

[Mark Antony]

He was made goddamn warden of the north immediately after his Kings murder. Of course the entire North knows of his treason and they definitely hate him for it.

[The Fourth Head]

He was made goddamn warden of the north immediately after his Kings murder. Of course the entire North knows of his treason and they definitely hate him for it.

someone had to.

[Light a wight tonight]

Yeah I'm not saying the Northmen are in a position to do anything about it currently. Just that it's clear that Roose betrayed Robb. As for the full extent of his involvement, that will remain unclear. The only way people find out that Roose was the one who actually stabbed Robb is if Great Jon makes it back to the north, assuming he saw it.

I don't know that it's "planets lining up" unlikely that they take out Roose. If Manderly is able to crush the Freys then Roose loses a great deal of support and someone can always betray him from within Winterfell. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Ramsey kills Roose in a foolish attempt to take the North for himself.

IMO, that's where Barbrey Ryswell/Dustin comes in. Many people think she's on Roose's side but there's a contingent that are convinced that she's a double-agent.

[Jamie Lannister]

"Roose Bolton's cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse."