Military Force, Naval Force of the kingdoms

[TheCrannogDweller]

70k according to Tyrion is the strength of the Tyrell host at KL though again he could be inflating numbers since he wants to impress Oberyn

“Not only do I see it, I believe I smell it now.”

“Then take a good sniff, my lord. Fill up your nose. Half a million people stink more than three hundred, you’ll find. Do you smell the gold cloaks? There are near five thousand of them. My father’s own sworn swords must account for another twenty thousand. And then there are the roses. Roses smell so sweet, don’t they? Especially when there are so many of them. Fifty, sixty, seventy thousand roses, in the city or camped outside it, I can’t really say how many are left, but there’s more than I care to count, anyway.”

I think the 70 000 would be with the Redwyne fleet. They arrived after the battle and in time for the wedding (which is when Oberyn is arriving, too). Or is my memory failing me?

Edit: Thanks for the quote, btw. Wasn't there another one later on? When Mace and Randyll split the Reach army, weren't there numbers given for each of the hosts?

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Renly's boasts aside, the Reach's strength is pretty clearly shown in the Battle of the Blackwater. The Lannister-Tyrell alliance had about 80 000 soldiers - a quarter of which was Tywin's army. So, after the split between the Reachmen and the Stormlords in the wake of Renly's death, it is quite clear that he inflated his numbers when he was talking to Stannis and Catelyn - and that the Tyrell forces were about 60 000.

No it isn't. Many men of Renly's army returned to their homes after he died, rather than joining either Mace or Stannis. So the size of the Tyrell forces at the Blackwater doesn't say anything.

I'm a little suspicious of both of Renly's claims about his strength. In the first instance (with Catelyn) he claims to have ninety thousand men, more than double King Robb's forces. Considering that Renly wants Robb Stark's alliegance here, the figures given to Catelyn could well have been inflated to awe Catelyn and Robb into obedience to his wishes. His force at Bitterbridge is undeniably large, but we are never given a clear indicator of exactly how many men Renly has beyond his own estimates because we do not get a POV from within the army. Wendel Manderly claims it's a "fearsome lot of men" but that's hardly precise. Renly has even more reason to inflate his own numbers to Stannis; a man he wants to surrender.

Bron: "And every day, more men rally to his banners.His host is now said to be a hundred thousand strong."

Tyrion: "That seems rather high."

Once again, the same can be said of any claims about army numbers. The entire series is told through potentially biased POV characters.

[TheCasualObserver]

No it isn't. Many men of Renly's army returned to their homes after he died, rather than joining either Mace or Stannis. So the size of the Tyrell forces at the Blackwater doesn't say anything.

Once again, the same can be said of any claims about army numbers. The entire series is told through potentially biased POV characters.

That's true, but discussions on Tywin and Robb's armies (through the eyes of Tyrion and Catelyn respectively) are had in places of trust - Robb and Tywin at war councils discussing possible options. Renly's estimates of his armies are given in the context of particular political conversations where Renly has a reason to lie. He might not be lying of course and Tyrion's estimates in the aftermath of the battle give at least some credence to their truth, but I still hold that those Renly figures should be taken with a pinch of salt to say the least.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Not necessarily. I'd say the majority of actual force sizes we're given are either from the commander about their own army/an allies to allies they'd have no reason to lie to, or about the enemies, again which they'd have no reason to lie about.

By ''bullshit'' I didn't necessarily mean just lies, I meant he's japing and fucking about, we have no reason to take what he says seriously.

Regarding the fleet: if half of the men were soldiers, and there were 30,000 men in the fleet... well lets do the maths. 30,000 / 2 = 15,000. And 30,000 is a high estimate, because the Royal fleet is not a fair comparison.

Some of them aren't however, like the Manderly's for example. There the only source for their strength is Wyman when he is trying to convince Davos to fetch Rickon for him. It doesn't have to be deliberate lies either, especially regarding the sizes of enemy forces it is very common IRL even in quite modern times that soldiers/commanders overreport the numbers of enemies they face or have killed. In a medieval setting where you have far less effective means of gathering intelligence this could be an even more serious problem.

For the Renly question, aside from there not being any proof about him having lied about that at (potential motive is not proof), there are two problems with the idea.

1. The chapter where he tells Stannis about his 120 000 men is told from a Catelyn POV, who by that time has been traveling with her retainers together with Renly's forces for a pretty long time. Long enough for that either she or one of the other Northern nobles should have taken time to get an idea about Renly's true strength, either by counting tents or just by asking around or something. Yet when Renly tells Stannis this, Catelyn doesn't react at all. She doesn't think "Hmm, let's see if Stannis falls for this" or anything.

2. Renly's boast is told to Stannis "I-know-the-strength-of-every-house-in-the-realm" Baratheon, and he doesn't have anything to say about it.

Moreover the Reach is by far the largest kingdom in the South (about twice the size of the Westerlands it looks like) and is also the most fertile. The bread basket of Westeros. It makes sense that they'd have much larger military forces than everybody else.

30 000 men total for the Redwyne Fleet is not a high estimate at all, it could well be 40 000 instead. Why is the Royal Fleet not a fair comparison?

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I would never claim that all of them were accurate, but it's nowhere near the amount that causes the ''list'' to collapse. Some could well be inaccuracies, but if that was the case then there would be a reason in the plot for the misinformation, i.e. someone charges in thinking the enemy will be 2 people, there's actually 2000 or whatever and it all goes horribly wrong. If this isn't the case, there's really no reason for the before stated number to be wrong.

I'd say there's as much reason to believe he's exaggerating as there is telling the truth.

1. You're right, I should have relied on Catelyn's expert army-counting skills.

2. Does he need to?

It makes sense that they have larger forces, but 100,000 is a hell of a lot more than anyone else.

The Royal Fleet isn't really a fair comparison because it has a different purpose than the Arbor Fleet. It's much smaller, but of course the Iron Throne can afford to build lots of ships, so if they haven't it makes sense that they would have some large ones, or fast ones. As they do. There ships will on average be of higher quality than the Arbor Fleet.

1. She doesn't need to do the counting herself, she is traveling together with numerous Northern military leaders and warriors. Presumably some of them would have taken an interest in how large the potential future enemy army they were traveling with really was, rather than just playing dice and drinking beer all day long for several weeks straight, or however long they were with Renly. It would also be something King Robb should have been very interested to know about when they got back to Riverrun.

2. If you haven't picked up on it yet Stannis has a pretty pedantic personality, and is very concerned with things being "right" etc. So yes, he should have needed to. Why Renly would need to lie about the size of his army to Stannis is a better question. 90 000 men would not be enough to make Stannis feel weak with his 5000 sellswords and pauper lords, but 120 000 would?

It's really not illogical. The Lannisters have around 50 000 men according to these lists. The Reach is twice as large and very fertile, so around 150 000 men for it would make sense.

What different purpose would that be? The Royal Fleet defends the eastern and northeastern part of Westeros, the Redwyne fleet the southern and western. This doesn't say anything about the size or quality of the ships in them.

[Nittanian]

Here are the figures from A Game of Thrones d20, the RPG published by Guardians of Order in 2005. Some of the info has since become outdated by newer canon stories and SSMs. The book includes the disclaimer:

Although George R. R. Martin himself approved and authorised all the materiel concerning the Seven Kingdoms, including certain grey areas, the only official canon is what appears directly in the novels. Everything else - from place names to knights' shields to house words - may be changed as the story progresses. Therefore please take anything "new" here with that in mind - it is true, unless George decides to change it.

King's Landing and Dragonstone

The city of King's Landing is manned by a City Watch that is 2,000 men strong. These are veterans and grizzled officers whose main job is to keep order during peacetime.

The environs around King's Landing can provide 10,000-15,000 soldiers, at the behest of the lords of Duskendale, Rosby, and others.

King's Landing also has about 50 ships of the fleet, including King Robert's Hammer, which dips 400 oars.

The isle of Dragonstone can bring forth a small force of perhaps 3,000 men-at-arms, and knights - 400 of which would be mounted. Dragonstone's true power is in the fleet, which supports the bulk of the royal fleet. Dragonstone floats 160 ships, 80 of which are full galleys that dip 100 or more oars.

North

The Starks of Winterfell command perhaps 45,000 fighting men. Since the region is so large and has such a diffuse population, however, it takes a very long time to gather an army. Because of this, Robb Stark was only able to go south with 20,000 swords.

Since the winters are so harsh, the local lords are always concerned with having enough men to bring in the harvest. Sending away needed workers means a cold, hungry death for everyone in the area. Though Robb Stark only assembled 20,000 men, the Umbers and others complained of not having enough men for the harvest. Had Robb marshalled his forces in the height of summer, he could probably have gathered another 10,000 men easily.

Among the forces of the North, the average ratio between foot and horse soldier is 4 to 1. The Northerners have no fleet to speak of since Brandon the Burner torched the navy.

Iron Islands

The Iron Islands can call upon an estimated 20,000 swords. The island fleet is the largest in Westeros, greater than the royal fleet and far larger than nearly every other navy. The islands can probably float about 500 longships or more - many of these might dip no more than 20 oars, while a handful dip more than 100. The Iron Fleet is a specific elite fleet of these larger ships. It should be noted that a longship does not compare well to a galley or carrack, despite being faster and more manoeuvrable, as those ships have much higher decks with room to mount scorpions and other such instruments of war.

The ironmen have an advantage over other regions for their martial culture encompasses everyone, high and low, men and even some women, all of whom learn to fight and reave. The only exceptions are the thralls, who are not taught to fight but instead do heavy labour.

Riverlands

The strength of the Riverlands is roughly 45,000 swords, likely comparable to that of the Vale of Arryn. Unfortunately, the strong personalities of the river lords lead to some fractious divisions - the Freys like to sit and wait, and they command some 4,000 by themselves. The lords of Bracken and Blackwood are at odds, helping to paralyse the region. The ratio of foot to horse is likely fairly high, at about 3 to 1. Houses on the major rivers will have barges, galleys, and skiffs.

Vale

The Defenders of the Vale can summon perhaps 45,000 swords to their banners. Their force is comparable in power to the North, or Dorne, although far more concentrated than the former. They have little naval power to speak of outside of Gulltown, but have a decent ratio of infantry to mounted soldiers (perhaps 3 to 1).

Westerlands

The Westerlands commands slightly more troops than places like the Riverlands or the Vale. It is estimated that the entirety of the Westerlands can bring in 50,000 soldiers when all the banners are raised, but this includes the greenest boys, and leaves many castle garrisons desperately weak. The Lannister wealth allows them to command the second strongest land force, in large part because it allows them to field a tremendous mounted force. Lord Tywin and Ser Jaime's armies both had a very high percentage of mounted soldiers to foot - perhaps slightly better than 2 to 1. The pikemen of the City Watch in Lannisport are known to be well trained, perhaps the most disciplined feudal foot levy in the Seven Kingdoms.

The Lannisters also have a fairly significant naval strength (now that they've recovered from the burning of the fleet of Lannisport during Greyjoy's Rebellion). The Lannisters have 20 or 30 cogs, carracks, galleys, and dromonds at Lannisport, and can call upon their bannermen to fill out their fleets. Each minor coastal house likely has two or three ships to patrol their waters. In total, the Westerlands navy is probably close to 50 or 60 large ships, leaving their longships for coastal defense.

Reach

Because of its bountiful harvests and its wealth, the Reach has a large population. With that comes the largest army in the Seven Kingdoms, capable of reaching 80,000 troops with a foot to horse ratio of 2 or 3 to 1. Should the sweepings of the Reach be collected and trained, they might marshal as many as 100,000 swords.

With the Redwynes, the Shield Islands, and the coastal lords gathered together, the Tyrells also command a fleet to rival the king's royal fleet and the fleet of the Greyjoys, floating 200 ships or more of which dip 100 oars or more.

Stormlands

The Baratheons of Storm's End command the most formidable castles in the Seven Kingdoms, but their arms are fewer than those of some of the richer regions. The lords of the Stormlands can raise perhaps 30,000 men to fight, however there is likely a poor horse to foot ratio. Individual soldiers are often seasoned veterans due to the strong martial traditions in the Marches, and the marcher lords tend to have very strong castles to resist Dornish raids.

Dorne

The spearmen of Dorne number about 50,000. They favour spears and lighter armours, due to Rhoynish influence and the heat of the country. The Dornishmen are famous for their sand steeds, light coursers that can outrun any other horse in the Seven Kingdoms; they tend to ready large numbers of mounted soldiers.

The Dornishmen are experts at using terrain to their benefit. Already dangerous fighters, they become almost unbeatable when fighting in their mountain passes or across the hot deserts. They favour guerrilla tactics - light, quick assaults and hasty retreats that favour their fast horses and spearmen.

Dorne has few ships, certainly fewer than the Reach or the Westerlands.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Riverlands:

Difficult to guess, but 45,000-50,000 may work out.

I would have thought that the Riverlands would have the same population density as the Reach, it's just smaller and doesn't have any cities. Wouldn't 60,000 make more sense?

Dorne

Yeah this is out of date. We know that the Dornish like everyone to think they can raise 50K, the reality is it's more like half that number.

[Nittanian]

Yeah this is out of date. We know that the Dornish like everyone to think they can raise 50K, the reality is it's more like half that number.

Yep, and I'm sure there are other inaccuracies as well, since the RPG is almost ten years old now. The book appears to have been where some of the GOT wiki's figures came from. Others just seem goofy (200,000 for the Reach?).

[Fat Mac]

Yea the Dorne numbers outdated, but I think the rest of those numbers seem more or less accurate.

I think the Riverlands could probably raise 60000 men all given, only that they'll never be United enough.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

30 000 men total for the Redwyne Fleet is not a high estimate at all, it could well be 40 000 instead. Why is the Royal Fleet not a fair comparison?

Because the Royal Fleet is built for battle as a primary purpose and relies on the income of the IT, while the Redwyne fleet is more patrol and anti-piracy, with only the income of the Arbor to finance it. That will create a huge difference in the size of the ships.

I would have thought that the Riverlands would have the same population density as the Reach, it's just smaller and doesn't have any cities. Wouldn't 60,000 make more sense?

Maybe. I could agree with that estimation as well and tend towards 50,000+ myself. Basically, the known numbers for the Riverlands are so vague and unreliable, they could field pretty much anything.

[Scorched_Air]

So I made a little check on the houses that exist for each region, and developed a formula for great and normal noble houses, and great and normal knightly houses, included high fertility/low fertility factors and came up with these numbers. This is only preliminary as I have not noted the details of the different houses (some are "major", others only lords in name) - except for Dorne, which I have checked thoroughly. My only problem with Dorne is that I expect House Dayne - both branches - to have more than would be expected, as this is an extraordinary house and with a martial nature to it.

Here are my preliminary results:

The North: max. 40.000

The Riverlands: max. 50.000, and I actually expected more. But it's still close enough.

The Vale: strangely, it outreached 50.000. It's very likely there is something I don't know.

The Westerlands: max. 60.000, but it could be less.

The Reach: max. 110.000 (due to the sheer size of their manpower, factors could distort number by 10.000 or more)

The Stormlands: I don't know why the idea is 40.000 as I have got 45.000 quite easily. It's a fertile enough region.

Dorne: max. 30.000, but could be going towards 35.000.

The Iron Islands: max. 20.000, and not a drop more.

[Barty]

So I made a little check on the houses that exist for each region, and developed a formula for great and normal noble houses, and great and normal knightly houses, included high fertility/low fertility factors and came up with these numbers. This is only preliminary as I have not noted the details of the different houses (some are "major", others only lords in name) - except for Dorne, which I have checked thoroughly. My only problem with Dorne is that I expect House Dayne - both branches - to have more than would be expected, as this is an extraordinary house and with a martial nature to it.

Here are my preliminary results:

The North: max. 40.000

The Riverlands: max. 50.000, and I actually expected more. But it's still close enough.

The Vale: strangely, it outreached 50.000. It's very likely there is something I don't know.

The Westerlands: max. 60.000, but it could be less.

The Reach: max. 110.000 (due to the sheer size of their manpower, factors could distort number by 10.000 or more)

The Stormlands: I don't know why the idea is 40.000 as I have got 45.000 quite easily. It's a fertile enough region.

Dorne: max. 30.000, but could be going towards 35.000.

The Iron Islands: max. 20.000, and not a drop more.

Not fertile at all - and hit by storms year round. I think there was a quote by Martin himself confirming this

[Scorched_Air]

OK, you got it all backwards, mister Barty. Here is what he said, according to westeros.org:

[summary: The writer wonders at how the Stormlands could compare in any way with the other major regions, given its lack of cities, it's seemingly-average lands, and so on.]

Well, you're right that there are no major cities in the stormlands, but that doesn't necessarily mean the lands are poor. Cape Wrath, the rainwood, and the kingswood are all fertile enough, albeit somewhat rainy.

As for the marches, the marcher lords were for thousands of years the first line of defense against Dornish incursions, so they had a very strong martial tradition. Some strong castles, too. They had to be.

[LordQorgyle]

Im not sure but the wedding contrat between Viserys and Arianne doesn't say that Dorne will give 50000 lancers to Viserys? Ir is it 20000?

[LordQorgyle]

Im not sure but in the mariage contract between Viserys and Arianne doesn't say that Doran will give 50000 lancers to Viserys cause

[Scorched_Air]

Lances or lancers, that number is impossible. Dorne hardly has that many cavalry, and certainly the number of 50.000 is impossibly high. But what do you expect from a fake marriage contract? Real promises? Hardly.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

1. Doesn't mean she talked to them about it. They treated her with all courtesy, but she wasn't part of Robbs war counsel so why would they include her?

2. Yes, Stannis is pedantic, but that doesn't mean he would reveal his superior knowledge of an enemy's tactics to the enemy. Also, Renly is incredibly flamboyant and fixated on appearance. Of course he would go for a higher number than there actually was. He loves the grandeur and majesty of his people, why wouldn't he seek to increase that?

3. The Westerlands are half as large, but just as rich, if not as fertile.

4. The Royal Fleet is a fraction of the size of Arbor Fleet. Unless you're suggesting that Rob and co. would deliberately build substantially smaller ships than what they are capable of? Or that the Redwynes are somehow capable of having a fleet which is full of hundreds of large ships.

1. Because she was an envoy with authority to make incredibly important deals for the North with the other kings and claimants? She wasn't just some random woman following them around.

2. "Superior knowledge of an enemy's tactics". Come on. It would be completely pointless for Stannis to hold that back, it would make no difference at all since he didn't have the slightest chance to win against Renly in an open war anyway. As for Renly the entire argument of him lying is just based on conjecture, there is no basis in the books for him having lied about the size of his armies. No hints, no nothing.

3. What do you mean with by "as rich"? Per capita or in total? They certainly aren't the latter. The Hightowers alone are said to be as rich as the Lannisters.

4. It isn't a fraction of the size at all. It is about the same size. 130 galleys and 80 sailing ships.

Because the Royal Fleet is built for battle as a primary purpose and relies on the income of the IT, while the Redwyne fleet is more patrol and anti-piracy, with only the income of the Arbor to finance it. That will create a huge difference in the size of the ships.

Source?

[Werthead]

It would be helpful if people checked the history log on the Wiki. First off, the wiki says that the figures came from the 2005 RPG which is based on information from GRRM (the inferior 2009 Green Ronin RPG does not have any information from GRRM in it at all, to my knowledge). In fact, the actual section on military forces was provided by our very own Ran. The GoT Wiki article was written by myself. However, someone's since gone in and done some 'creative' rewriting of the article (i.e. pulling bullshit out of thin air), so it's going to have to be reverted to what it used to be.

[Scorched_Air]

Give us the original when you have it, please.

I did my own big, detailed counting now and am interested to see how wrong/false I was.

Here is my best count so far:

Reach: max. 100.000

Westerlands: ~65.000

Riverlands: max. 50.000

Stormlands: I GOT MORE THAN 50.000!!! I must be missing something.

Vale: ~45.000

North: max. 40.000

Dorne: max. 35.000

Iron Islands: max. 20.000

[The Frosted King]

There is no world in which the riverlands shouldn't be second behind the Reach in overall power.

Fertile lush flatlands, fed by multiple rivers?

If the Reach can field 80k, the riverlands should do 50-60k.

The west should be 45-50k, augmented by mercs.

The Vale should be next, at 40k, with the north on par.

Finally comes the Stormlands with 35k, and Dorne lastly with 30k.