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Barristan the Bold is not a true knight


300 replies to this topic

#1 Ser Douglas

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:49 AM

Barristan hides behind his oath while under the Mad King. Then when Lord Stark presents the kings seal claiming Joff had no claim, Barristan stood their while the Starks were slaughtered instead of defending his kings last testament and will. Coward or True knight you be the judge.

 

Note: Knights are suppose to be just and true!



#2 The Mountain That Flies

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:04 AM

 

"You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him"      -Gerold Hghtower

Barristan is hardly alone is allowing Aerys to act unopposed, largely because he would have been in a contradictory position if he had tried to do anything. As for Joffrey, Robert's last will said for the throne to pass to his heir. We know ed changed that wording to allow for Stannis, but Barristan has zero proof at that point of Joff being illegitimate. In both cases, he acted as best he could, an judging him to be untrue seems a bit harsh.



#3 Fanless Mace

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:27 AM

The knights are security, not judiciary.

#4 jon stark I

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:30 AM

Jaime:Sir Barristan did you know Aerys raped his wife?How can we let that happen?

Barristan:Oh Ashara is here, wait a second, how do I look Jaime?

Jaime:Sir I am talking about a horrible action here

Barristan:As long as it is king who does the rape I don't care

Months later

Jaime:Sir they are going to burn an innocent men

Barristan:As long as it is king who orders it I don't care

Years later

Barristan:Sir they are going to kill Dany Targeryan

Jaime:As long as it is king who orders it I don't care

Barristan:WTF man she is only a child we are knights our vows suggest we have to protect the innocent

Jaime:Yeah thats what I said to myself years ago but thanks to you guys I totally got over it.

 

Barristan is someone who would hold his position and reputation over everything else.When everything is said and done he starts talking before that there is nothing we hear from him.Dany crusifies people orders torture insults a prince etc and ll this while  our great knight can't even tell her about her father.Actually if you ask me Hound has more honor then Barristan.

Do you think if Joff or Queen ordered him to kill Mycah he would have said no?Do you think if Aerys ordered him to kill Jaime or Rickard or Brandon do you think he would have said no?

The only vow that is important is protect the innocents other vows are just to add more people to serve.But most people just forget their vows.There are like at least 10 vows that suggested Baristan to protect Rickard and Brandon and Dany.I seriously hate how KG acted like cowards.And most importantly I hate Barristan Selmy.



#5 Ser Douglas

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:45 AM

I agree Jon Stark, the fact that a knight should let rape, torture, and senseless killing happen shows Barristan and his fellow kingsguard brothers as self serving men at best. They had no problem with Prince Lewyn Martell taking a paramour that furthers the point of being self serving mindless drones for the King.



#6 Ours is the Stannis

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:48 AM

I'll say this, if I had to pick 10 knights that we have met in the story, he would be one of them.  He's is not the pinnacle of Knighthood as the populous believes, but he is among the best in the realm (that's not saying much).  



#7 IRON BANK

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:56 AM

Barristan is a true knight almost to a fault.  In ADWD he starts to question his motives.  He also questions what a true knight represents.  IMHO If I had to pick someone to go into battle with Brienne, and Selmy would be at the top of my list.  They do not break oaths easily and do not back stab.



#8 FerociousVeldtRoarer

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:03 AM

I agree Jon Stark, the fact that a knight should let rape, torture, and senseless killing happen shows Barristan and his fellow kingsguard brothers as self serving men at best. They had no problem with Prince Lewyn Martell taking a paramour that furthers the point of being self serving mindless drones for the King.

 

Huh. What do you care if Lewyn had a lover? If there's a single reason against it, it's his KG vows. But you are absolutely outraged when they follow them, too.



#9 Mikkel

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:32 AM

Huh. What do you care if Lewyn had a lover? If there's a single reason against it, it's his KG vows. But you are absolutely outraged when they follow them, too.


But it is hypocritical to on the one hand follow your vows the point where you allow someone like Aerys to run amok, and on the other be willing to bend the rules where celibacy is concerned. There is quite a huge difference between a minor bend and openly opposing the King though - but still, allowing Aerys' reign of terror to continue really is hiding behind your vows, and it certainly doesn't mesh with the other vows of knighthood, such as protecting the weak.

#10 Winterfell is Burning

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:41 AM

Like I've said in another thread: Arthur Dayne is as guilty of anything people accuse Barristan of and yet doesn't get criticized.

 

Not only that, but Barristan actually did something to stop Robert's Rebellion, fought battles, killed enemies, nearly died trying protect the Targaryens.

 

Meanwhile, during a war that led two of the King's children to exile and the King, the Queen, the Crown Prince, his wife and his children to die, Dayne did nothing but serve as a glorified sentry for a 15 year old girl that might not have been there willingly, and accomplished absolutely nothing but to die.


Edited by Winterfell is Burning, 10 June 2014 - 09:41 AM.


#11 Rhaegar I Targaryen

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:42 AM

I enjoy Ser Barristan 

 

I miss Arthur Dayne



#12 The Mountain That Flies

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:55 AM

Like I've said in another thread: Arthur Dayne is as guilty of anything people accuse Barristan of and yet doesn't get criticized.

 

Not only that, but Barristan actually did something to stop Robert's Rebellion, fought battles, killed enemies, nearly died trying protect the Targaryens.

 

Meanwhile, during a war that led two of the King's children to exile and the King, the Queen, the Crown Prince, his wife and his children to die, Dayne did nothing but serve as a glorified sentry for a 15 year old girl that might not have been there willingly, and accomplished absolutely nothing but to die.

Nicely put. I suspect since most Barristan-bashers tend to prefer Jaime's style of knighthood, they give more leeway to the man Jaimed adored.



#13 The other prince

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:55 AM

Barristan hides behind his oath while under the Mad King. Then when Lord Stark presents the kings seal claiming Joff had no claim, Barristan stood their while the Starks were slaughtered instead of defending his kings last testament and will. Coward or True knight you be the judge.

 

Note: Knights are suppose to be just and true!

 

 

Barristan hides behind his oath while under the Mad King. Then when Lord Stark presents the kings seal claiming Joff had no claim, Barristan stood their while the Starks were slaughtered instead of defending his kings last testament and will. Coward or True knight you be the judge.

 

Note: Knights are suppose to be just and true!

It is pretty much understood that the oath to obey and protect the King trumps everything else oath wise. If Barristan was "hiding under his oath" while serving the Mad King then all the rest of the Kingsguard were as well. Remember that a large part of what makes Jaime the person he ends up being is his inability to reconcile the conflict between different oaths and his idea of what a knight should be. This is also one of the reasons that Sandor hates knights, they are supposed to reresent virtue and honor yet here is Gregor as a knight. We have not been given the exact wording of the oath the Kingsgaurd take but from what we do know is it is very focused on not only protecting the king but also obeying him. When someone finally did actually do what most of us consider the right thing (Jaime) look how he is viewed. 

Barristan is hardly alone is allowing Aerys to act unopposed, largely because he would have been in a contradictory position if he had tried to do anything. As for Joffrey, Robert's last will said for the throne to pass to his heir. We know ed changed that wording to allow for Stannis, but Barristan has zero proof at that point of Joff being illegitimate. In both cases, he acted as best he could, an judging him to be untrue seems a bit harsh.

Exactly. You know the saying "The king is dead, long live the king"?  It would apply here.

 

 

Note: Knights are suppose to be just and true!

It is not always up to the knight to decide what is just though, certainly not a knight sworn directly to the king. What do mean by "true"? If any of the kingsguard did not obey and follow their oath then they would have certainly been considered untrue.



#14 Ser Douglas

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:22 AM

 

 

It is pretty much understood that the oath to obey and protect the King trumps everything else oath wise. If Barristan was "hiding under his oath" while serving the Mad King then all the rest of the Kingsguard were as well. Remember that a large part of what makes Jaime the person he ends up being is his inability to reconcile the conflict between different oaths and his idea of what a knight should be. This is also one of the reasons that Sandor hates knights, they are supposed to reresent virtue and honor yet here is Gregor as a knight. We have not been given the exact wording of the oath the Kingsgaurd take but from what we do know is it is very focused on not only protecting the king but also obeying him. When someone finally did actually do what most of us consider the right thing (Jaime) look how he is viewed. 

Exactly. You know the saying "The king is dead, long live the king"?  It would apply here.

 

It is not always up to the knight to decide what is just though, certainly not a knight sworn directly to the king. What do mean by "true"? If any of the kingsguard did not obey and follow their oath then they would have certainly been considered untrue.

What I mean by true is, obliging the innocent and unable aid. But in a sense Jamie showed himself to be self serving as well in the way of he would die if the Mad King succeeded in his plot. (wildfire)    



#15 TheSnape

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:28 AM

Knights Barristan is morally better/more honorable than:

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Ilyn Payne

-Ser Jaime Lannister

-Ser Kevan Lannister

-Ser Gregor Clegane

-Ser Jorah Mormont

-Ser Lancel Lannister

-Ser Boros Blount

-Ser Osmund Kettleback

-Ser Balon Swann

-Ser Mandon Moore

-Ser Meryn Trant (don't even get me started on this motherfucker, he's one of the least deserving people to be a knight and deserves to be hanged)

-Ser Bronn (tough one, but probably a tad more honorable)

-Ser Amory Lorch

-Ser Addam Marbrand

-Ser Harys Swyft

-Any knight from House Frey

 

There's many I've left out, but this is all I can think of at the moment. A few on here are debatable, simply because we don't know enough about them, but the vast majority aren't. Fact - a lot of Westerosi knights really don't deserve their titles.

 

Once Barristan was dismissed by that dipshit Joffrey, why wouldn't he go to another monarch, especially when it was clear for all to see that Joff was bad news? And he did the right thing - the throne was usually better off when there was a Targaryen King - most of the reasons for overthrowing the Targaryens were self-serving, only Ned Stark actually believed he was doing the right thing, everyone else had self serving reasons, esp. the Lannisters and Baratheons.

 

Why wouldn't Barristan go back to the proper monarch?

 

 

My reply to your other thread above.

 

And as I said, it's stupid. There are so many worse, who don't get half as much shit as Barristan does

 

People in ASOIAF who aren't true knights:

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

-Ser Meryn Trant

...you get the idea.



#16 LordQorgyle

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:32 AM

And Robert said that Joffrey would heritate the throne..It was Ned that changed the testament to my heir

#17 Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:36 AM

Barristan is the last living legend. The last of a dying breed. He comes at the end of the long list of fairy tale knights, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Sir Arthur Dayne... and because he isn't perfect he gets criticized, because he has unachievable expectations placed on him. Of course a TRUE knight may have stepped up to defend Ned, but realistically? Dayne, Hightower, and Whent abided by their vows and died for it at the Tower of Joy, and I think had Barristan been one of the knights entrusted to protecting Lyanna, he would have done so just at the others did. 



#18 gregg22

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:37 AM

My reply to your other thread:

 

 

Which "atrocities" took place right in front of him???

 

He was the only member of the Small Council other than Ned to object to killing Dany.

 

He was half dead after the battle on the Trident "wounded by spear, arrow, and sword".  So he was convalescing when the Targaryen babes were laid at the feet of Robert.  He later said he would not have served Robert if he had seen Robert smile at that.

 

After the Definace of Duskendale, Aerys executed the ENTIRE House Hollard, except for a baby, and only because Ser Barristan asked Aerys to give mercy to the babe, who turned out to be Dontos Hollard.

 

The true reason Cersei dismissed him from the Kingsgaurd was not age, it was because Barry wasn't "down for anything".

 

Not to mention he arguably the greatest fighter alive in the novels.

 


..and when I say he wasn't "down for anything" I mean he had a well known history of opposing the execution of children and babies...

 

Which by the way is the exact work Cersei needed done with Robert's bastards.

 

He was dismissed precisely because he WAS a true knight..or better said the "truest
"


Edited by gregg22, 10 June 2014 - 11:37 AM.


#19 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:40 AM

Arthur Dayne has been presented as the quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?

Well... keep reading.

 

 

http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/



#20 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:46 AM

Yes, he is a lousy knight and an oathbreaker. That that's par for the course doesn't change the fact that he is no true knight.

 

Like I've said in another thread: Arthur Dayne is as guilty of anything people accuse Barristan of and yet doesn't get criticized.

I do!