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Jaime: another possibility for Knight of the Laughing Tree


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#1 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:17 PM

The consensus is the KotLT was Lyanna. I admit a strong probability, so all those who are adamant in this belief and won't consider any other possibilities, I'd as soon you don't answer this question as I've heard those arguments. I believe there is still some wiggle room. I don't know if anyone else has posted on this-the forum goes back ten years. Here are some reasons I think it could be Jaime if we take Lyanna out of the picture:

Some things we know:

1. Jojen and Meera themselves when they relate the story don't know who it was. Meera thinks it was a crannogman because the Knight was shorter than normal, but Jojen says'Or not'.

2. Jaime was a newly made Kingsguard at 15in the first days of the tournament with stars in his eyes about Selmy and Arthur Dayne and honour and knighthood. Becoming a KG would change all that rapidly when he got to know Aerys, but there was no doubt at this point he was romantic and idealistic.

3. Right before the tournament, as a squire in his first real battle, he had just assisted Arthur Dayne to defeat the Smiling Knight, the greatest villain of that age. His hero is the perfect knight Arthur.

4. He wanted to stay at the tournament but was ordered away to KL. That would have been extremely hard on him after the excitement of being knighted, made a Kingsguard, at a tourney where he likely would have made his first appearance as a full knight fighting for the honour of himself or a lady.

5. As he's leaving, he hears about Lyanna's encounter with the squires or overhears Howland talking it all out at the Weirwood tree. This gives him a cause to fight for the lady's and Howland's and knighthood in general's honour.

6. He has been ordered away so can't appear as himself or in his own arms. What better than to appear as that most romantic of tournament icons, a Mystery Knight, and uphold the ideals of knighthood?

6. The arms: nobody has so far explained satisfactorily for me the Laughing Face on the weir wood tree. The weir wood is most easily explained. The Mystery Knight fights on behalf of Lyanna Stark and Howland Reed, both weir wood worshippers, and is possibly answering a prayer made to a weir wood tree. But what of the Laughing Face? Is it a coincidence that he and Arthur Dayne had just defeated the Smiling Knight, the greatest villain of the Age, and here comes a Mystery Knight wearing the emblem of a Laughing Knight. Moreover, as a key personality trait, Jaime out of everyone is said to be always laughing. What better homage to Arthur Dayne, his hero who killed the Smiling Knight, than to fight with an emblem that recalls that historic defeat and symbolizes his own personality?

7. Although he had not attained his full height at 15 and is a comparative newby, he has trained in jousting for years, and moreover is exceptionally talented. He is able to defeat the more experienced knights. And let's see here: his request is purely Jaime. He himself has just risen from squire to knight. He likely know the squires well. Why not uphold knightly honour and at the same time embarrass those layabout squires? I can see him laughing indeed.

8. Aerys, who is mad and paranoid, identifies the Mystery Knight, perfectly correctly, as his enemy and wants him found. This seemed a little odd even for Aerys. But I suspect we'll find that Aerys was prophecy-cursed and had a little foresight. Because the greatest enemy of Aerys is of course the Mystery Knight if Jaime is the Mystery Knight. It is Jaime who will murder Aerys nine years later.

9. There is all kinds of irony here. Aerys has a premonition about the Mystery Knight but only recognizes him in disguise. For the next nine years he will 'hold him close' as protection from Tywin, not realizing that Jaime is the enemy to be truly feared.

10. When Rhaegar goes to find him, if he does find him, Jaime tells him the story of Lyanna beating off the squires-in true knightly honourable fashion-and Rhaegar gives her the crown in recognition, thereby beginning the events of Roberts Rebellion.

11. One other parallel here: Jamie's most honourable action seems to have triggered the events and subsequent war of 16 years ago, just as his most dishonourable, pushing Bran from the window, triggers the war with the Starks and begins the entire series of ASOIAF.

Edited by Lady Barbrey, 12 July 2014 - 02:19 PM.


#2 LordQorgyle

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:35 PM

It's possible and i would love it but i doubt it...

We would have some hints in Jaime chapters...



#3 ShadowCat Rivers

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:36 PM

No, the KotLT was small and Jaime was tall already. The description doesn't fit.


Edited by ShadowCat Rivers, 12 July 2014 - 01:36 PM.


#4 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:08 PM

No, the KotLT was small and Jaime was tall already. The description doesn't fit.


That's why I didn't consider it at first because I thought somewhere I read he was tall already at 15 but I couldn't find the reference. Where does it say he was tall at 15?

Edited by Lady Barbrey, 12 July 2014 - 02:10 PM.


#5 Old God

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:11 PM

Jamie does like thinking a lot about his past you would think this would have come up in his POV.

#6 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:13 PM

I doubt it wasn't him. He would have mentioned. Although the whole "booming voice" is suspicious. Maybe Lyanna had an hormonal "problem"...



#7 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:16 PM

It's possible and i would love it but i doubt it...
We would have some hints in Jaime chapters...


We do have some hints. The Smiling Knight, Jaime's idealism, how he hated bullies and got the best of Merrett Frey when Frey tried to bully him (who could easily have been the Frey squire that attacked Howland, Merrett was known for his bullying and by that time in the story was a squire again - a perpetual squire - for House Frey). Jaime does not include everything in his POV and if Martin wants to keep it a mystery he's unlikely to be blatant about it.

#8 Howlin' Howland

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:17 PM

When Aerys orded the knight to remove his helmet, he/she refused.  Then Aerys ordered Rhaegar to discover the identity of the knight.  By the end of the tourney Rhaegar was crowning Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty.  Lyanna being the knight of the laughing tree fits so well with R+L=J, Rhaegar first meets Lyanna while investigating the knight and that's when they fall in love, I think it has to be Lyanna.



#9 Mal Malenkirk

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:22 PM

I like Jaime as much as anyone, but this doesn't make sense to me, both from a logistical point of view and because it's out of characters for him to do it secretly.

 

First of all, he was pretty much center of attention at that tourney, since he was being inducted into the king's guard.  Where would he have found the time to be the knight of the LT?  He's definitely one of the personalities at that tourney whose absence who have been noted. 

 

And beside, he competed in that tournament himself!  What was he doing, changing armor back and forth to compete in the same joust under two different alias? 

 

And frankly, while I can certainly see Jaime (especially Young Jaime) wanting to put the bullying squires in their place if he had stumbled upon the event, he'd have done it under his own name.   Why would he build himself an alias to do it secretly?  This is the future Kingslayer we are talking about.  And he'd likely just have beaten the crap out of the squire right then and there and live with the consequence instead of punishing them indirectly through their knight.  The LT charade would be completely out of character.


Edited by Mal Malenkirk, 12 July 2014 - 02:34 PM.


#10 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:28 PM

Why couldn't he have found Jaime, Jaine told him the story, which sparked his interest in Lyanna? Lyanna's bravery in fighting off three large squires by herself for the honour of her banner man is commendable in and of itself. I don't see why everyone needs her to have jousted and beat off three full-grown knights just to top that. Or why she couldn't have met Rhaegar at any other time during the tourney except when he 'discovers she's the laughing knight'.

But could we get away from Lyanna?

The only way this theory couldnt work that I can see is if Jaime at 15 was already tall. Then I've wasted my time thinking about it.

#11 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:30 PM

?

Edited by Lady Barbrey, 12 July 2014 - 02:44 PM.


#12 Luthien Targaryen

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:30 PM

My money's still on The Ned.

 

Wasn't Jaime sent to King's Landing after he was invested? I seem to remember Jaime grumbling about it to himself in one of his chapters.



#13 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:32 PM

I like Jaime as much as anyone, but this doesn't make sense to me, both from a logistical point of view and because it's out of characters for him to do it secretly.
 
First of all, he was pretty much center of attention at that tourney, since he was being inducted into the king's guard.  Where would he have found the time to be the knight of the LT?  He's definitely one of the personalities at that tourney whose absence who have been noted. 
 
And beside, he competed in that tournament himself!  What was he doing, changing armor back and forth to compete in the same joust under two different alias? 
 
And frankly, while I can certainly see Jaime (especially Young Jaime) wanting to put the bullying squires in their place if he had stumbled upon the event, he'd have done it under his own name.   Why would he build himself an alias to do it secretly?  This is the future Kingslayer we are talking about.


He couldn't appear as himself. He had been ordered back to Kings Landing. And a young idealistic Jaime laughing up his sleeve at everybody if he could get away with it is exactly how I see him.

#14 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:35 PM

While Jaime was 15 and possibly not full grown, Ned was 18 and definitely full-grown.

Edited by Lady Barbrey, 12 July 2014 - 02:46 PM.


#15 Winterfell is Burning

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:36 PM

He couldn't appear as himself. He had been ordered back to Kings Landing. And a young idealistic Jaime laughing up his sleeve at everybody if he could get away with it is exactly how I see him.

 

Jaime is also the guy that saved King's Landing from turning into ashes and never told anyone...



#16 Mal Malenkirk

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:40 PM

Hey, that's true, I thought he competed but he had been sent back.  Well, that's a pretty damn good alibi.  He sure as hell was not riding alone so there is no way he could have absconded.  And again, he wouldn't have dealt with the squire that way.  He'd have trashed them on the spot.



#17 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:40 PM

My money's still on The Ned.
 
Wasn't Jaime sent to King's Landing after he was invested? I seem to remember Jaime grumbling about it to himself in one of his chapters.


That's EXACTLY why he would have to have appeared as a Mystery Knight if he returned to the tournament.

And remember too that after he's named a Kingsguard, the youngest ever at 15, he finds out he's been named mostly out of Aerys's spite towards his father. So he had something to prove to himself, that he was as honourable as any of the other KG, and deserved to be in their company.

#18 Dorian Martell

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:40 PM

Jamie remembers staying in a room on the kingsroad after being sent back to Kl and the realization of why Aerys made him. There was nothing about being the mystery knight



#19 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:48 PM

Because he was remembering THAT moment, not what came after. In fact that moment could have been a turning point, putting that together with knowing the Lyanna Stark-squire story.

Edited by Lady Barbrey, 12 July 2014 - 02:55 PM.


#20 Lady Barbrey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:48 PM

 
Jaime is also the guy that saved King's Landing from turning into ashes and never told anyone...


Yes, and even in his POV, we didn't get that full information until he revealed it out loud after many POV's from Jaime.

Edited by Lady Barbrey, 12 July 2014 - 02:50 PM.