What do you feel about the romanticization of Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna's story?

[UVA]

"Old laws are good laws. Ancient laws are even better laws."

Law is what the people accept as the law, mostly because they grew up with it.

And how does this apply to this situation? While Rhaegar setting Elia aside to pursue more heirs may not be the best PR, what authority in Westeros could stop him? It's not like the Westeros Congress can impeach the Crown Prince.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The king is the authority who makes the rules. I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Are you of the opinion that someone's going to impeach Rhaegar over that?

I was just answering your question. Didn't want to imply anything about Rhaegar and Elia.

Truth to tell, I believe that there would be trouble about it. A little civil war or the like, with Dorne being curbstomped. Nothing too serious, only a couple ten thousands dead, as many raped and King Rhaegar being the obedient bitch of the Lords Paramount for the rest of his live. Probably with Lord Yronwood being the new Lord Paramount of Dorne.

[Ser Eric]

Rhaegar's thought process is quite important like I said. He wanted 3 heads and he could have chosen any woman he wanted and ended up chosing Lyanna who bethothed to Robert. So, the question is why Lyanna?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

And how does this apply to this situation? While Rhaegar setting Elia aside to pursue more heirs may not be the best PR, what authority in Westeros could stop him? It's not like the Westeros Congress can impeach the Crown Prince.

The Lords Paramount and lesser Lords can. Just like they did in Robert's Rebellion. Rhaegar would have to pay for their acceptance/support, and he'd better pay big.

[butterbumps!]

I was just answering your question. Didn't want to imply anything about Rhaegar and Elia.

Truth to tell, I believe that there would be trouble about it. A little civil war or the like, with Dorne being curbstomped. Nothing too serious, only a couple ten thousands dead, as many raped and King Rhaegar being the obedient bitch of the Lords Paramount for the rest of his live. Probably with Lord Yronwood being the new Lord Paramount of Dorne.

I really don't think that would be the outcome. How hard could Dorne truly press this in light of the mindset of their society? I think it would be prickly with Dorne, but divorcing Elia and marrying Lyanna would somewhat neutralize the looming power bloc forming between Baratheons, Starks, Tullys and Arryns. Tyrells are already pro Targ. Dorne would probably not retaliate in all likelihood, even if they didn't like it.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I really don't think that would be the outcome. How hard could Dorne truly press this in light of the mindset of their society? I think it would be prickly with Dorne, but divorcing Elia and marrying Lyanna would somewhat neutralize the looming power bloc forming between Baratheons, Starks, Tullys and Arryns. Tyrells are already pro Targ. Dorne would probably not retaliate in all likelihood, even if they didn't like it.

Sort of neutralizing, in the way that at least Stark, Tully and Arryn would push for Crown Prince Jon. Tyrell probably as well, they've now two Targaryens to choose from. Lannister and Baratheon are closer to that power bloc as well.

Yes, Dorne would be insane to retaliate, but that's not a hindrance. For House Martell to eat that insult would be as dangerous as starting a war about it. The only difference would be whether the war is Dorne against most of the Seven Kingdoms or House Martell against most of Dorne.

[butterbumps!]

Sort of neutralizing, in the way that at least Stark, Tully and Arryn would push for Crown Prince Jon. Tyrell probably as well, they've now two Targaryens to choose from. Lannister and Baratheon are closer to that power bloc as well.

Yes, Dorne would be insane to retaliate, but that's not a hindrance. For House Martell to eat that insult would be as dangerous as starting a war about it. The only difference would be whether the war is Dorne against most of the Seven Kingdoms or House Martell against most of Dorne.

I'm really not so sure about all that. Prince Jon would be second in line for the throne, and Lyanna would be queen once Aerys died.

I think you're thinking about this from a post-Rebellion framework. Like, these people only decided to rebel after Aerys called for Ned and Robert's heads. They weren't going to rebel even though Aerys did that whole mass execution thing. The idea of just rebelling against a king because you don't like something isn't really in the Westerosi vocabulary. Until Arryn refuses to obey the request for Ned and Robert's deaths.

None of these people would have been inclined to rebel against Rhaegar's hypothetical divorce. It took Aerys' calling for more executions to inspire rebellion. They were indulging Aerys' utterly ludicrous commands until then. If Aerys could call for all these people to be executed (pre Ned/ Robert) and not inspire rebellion, I hardly think a simple issue of divorce is going to rouse anyone.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Crown someone else queen of love and beauty is huge loss of face. Do you think Naerys have a damn about Aegon? No? Was crowning some else still bad and shameful? Hell to the yes.

No we can't, we can surmise he took from the road for his prophecy. Love too. But marriage is far from what we know. The KG weren't even suppose to be there but with Aerys. They could gone rogue and only be their as a oath to Rhaegar to protect her.

No it isn't just take moon tea, Asha and Arianne had 10 years of sexual experiences without once getting pregnant on the stuff.

Lyanna and her spawn are the bane of Aegon.

We got into similar issues in a similar thread yesterday, so I hate to reignite a fruitless discussion, but you have so many errors in such a short post, I wanted to clear things up.

The crowning situation looked strange to the tournament goers, but it was not without precedent and we really don't know what Rhaegar said to Elia to address the situation. You are making assumptions, but even if you are correct, it is one event and is not the be-all-and-end-all of the relationship between R&E and between R&L.

As far as the KG, you are not correct. Dane and Whent were assigned to Rhaegar, so yes, they were supposed to be with him. They were not supposed to be with Aerys because Aerys assigned them to Rhaegar. As far as Hightower goes, he is a 100% by-the-book kind of guy, so given that he remained at ToJ, he had a good reason to do so and would not be breaking his vows (I believe a theory that has been put forth on this issue, but outside the scope of this post). The conversation between Ned and the 3 KG make it clear that they did not forsake Aerys because they assert that Aerys would still be on the throne if they had been there to kill Jaime in time. We have no reason to believe the KG were lying to Ned. So your supposition about them turning of Aerys and going "rogue" is contradicted by the text and by logic (given what we know independently about Hightower).

Moon tea is not necessarily 100% effective, and Elia could not take the risk. I think the pregnancy itself could be a risk to her health even with moon tea (it is still a form of pregnancy and birth, even if the baby is still-born). So given this situation, moon tea is not the same as the birth control pill, and Elia could not risk getting pregnant--so sex would be out between R&E.

Your statement about Lyanna's "spawn" being the bane of Aegon's existence also is not based on sufficient facts. We know that Rhaegar discussed the prophesy with Elia. If she believed in it as well, she might have been comfortable that Rhaegar had to marry Lyanna and have a third child to produce the third head of the dragon (and possibly TPTWP if they realized L was ice to R's fire). Again, we just don't have enough facts to make definitive conclusions, but we have enough facts to suspect that Elia might have accepted the arrangement under the circumstances. We certainly cannot be so sure that she was not (even if you think she should have been).

The question I really have for you is whether you are more interested in fighting for a version of the facts that you want to be true or a version that your believe will be true. I only care about trying to figure out what will happen. My personal preference for story lines is irrelevant. I get enjoyment not from arguing in favor of plot points that I would want to see happen, but rather from looking back after the fact and seeing that I was able to figure it out from the clues GRRM left for us. If you simply want to try to figure out what GRRM will have happen, I advise you to stop being so personally invested in your own preferences and look at the clues that have been given to the readers and the actual world that GRRM has constructed (where people behave quite differently than our world--and often differently than you might think they should behave).

[MaesterSamwell]

Sort of neutralizing, in the way that at least Stark, Tully and Arryn would push for Crown Prince Jon. Tyrell probably as well, they've now two Targaryens to choose from. Lannister and Baratheon are closer to that power bloc as well.

Yes, Dorne would be insane to retaliate, but that's not a hindrance. For House Martell to eat that insult would be as dangerous as starting a war about it. The only difference would be whether the war is Dorne against most of the Seven Kingdoms or House Martell against most of Dorne.

Rhaegar never believed he would have another male heir. It is implied that he believed him and Lyanna's child would be female. To him, that would have solved a good deal of the arguments because House Martell would have still had the heir and the North would just have a connected niece to the throne. At the time Jon was conceived the North was still run by Rickard and had three healthy male heirs with the oldest being betrothed to Riverrun. This would have been a perfect situation for Rhaegar because the only houses he would have to worry about were Lannister and Barratheon. They would most likely not team up and rebel. Jon Arryn was known as a loyal man so he would have followed suit. I think this was part of his plan to oust his father and take the crown. He would have know had four of the seven kingdoms related to him or at least on his side (Martell, Tyrell, Stark, and Tully) and would have had almost no threat from another (Arryn). He probably knew Tywin was cross with the way his father had treated him, so he could find a way to sway him to his side (probably by planning to make him hand again). Now, one the rebellion happened all bets were off and Rhaegar had to try and put it down for his plans to work. He may have realized that everything was too far gone and thus had to lead his father's army to put down the rebellion (hence his talk with Jamie about how things would change when he returned). He was a cocky guy who though that there was no way he would lose.

[Kyoshi]

Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the rebellion days of Westeros and the damage caused. Since my top three favorite Houses of Westeros are Targaryen, Martell, and Stark, I definitely want to discuss about the turn of events causing the Rebellion. Especially addressing the wrongly romanticized story of Elia and Lyanna + Rhaegar. It bothers me to a degree of how these fangirls continue to talk about their story like this. I feel bad for Elia and Lyanna for being subjects of romanticization which caused deaths of their families, countrymen, and even themselves just for the sake of creating an illusion of a tragic love story which fans play around with, morphing it to be a 'cute' and 'beautifully tragic' tale off love. Now, I'm not going to go rant about this right now but I would like to hear your thoughts about the Trio.

I found it hard to read past the bolded part. But I don't think it was all peaches and roses between those three. The problem is that we don't have enough information to come to any kind of conclusions or have any kind of textually supported debate.

[Wmarshal]

And the people also accept that it's a woman's duty to produce as many heirs as her husband requires. Meaning that the conundrum Rhaegar was faced with is something people would generally see as justifiable to act on.

The king is the authority who makes the rules. I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Are you of the opinion that someone's going to impeach Rhaegar over that?

Um, ok. So I was trying to not use the term "divorce" since it doesn't occur in the series. I'm not arguing for annulment, which I told you a few posts ago.

Which he can not, marriage is matter of faith and belief, as holy as you get,by eyes of gods and men Rhaegar can't sent Elia a side.

[WSmith84]

Rhaegar never believed he would have another male heir. It is implied that he believed him and Lyanna's child would be female. To him, that would have solved a good deal of the arguments because House Martell would have still had the heir and the North would just have a connected niece to the throne. At the time Jon was conceived the North was still run by Rickard and had three healthy male heirs with the oldest being betrothed to Riverrun. This would have been a perfect situation for Rhaegar because the only houses he would have to worry about were Lannister and Barratheon. They would most likely not team up and rebel. Jon Arryn was known as a loyal man so he would have followed suit. I think this was part of his plan to oust his father and take the crown. He would have know had four of the seven kingdoms related to him or at least on his side (Martell, Tyrell, Stark, and Tully) and would have had almost no threat from another (Arryn). He probably knew Tywin was cross with the way his father had treated him, so he could find a way to sway him to his side (probably by planning to make him hand again). Now, one the rebellion happened all bets were off and Rhaegar had to try and put it down for his plans to work. He may have realized that everything was too far gone and thus had to lead his father's army to put down the rebellion (hence his talk with Jamie about how things would change when he returned). He was a cocky guy who though that there was no way he would lose.

The thing we have to ask is: was Rhaegar only planning on having one child with Lyanna? Was he never planning to sleep with her again, or was he planning to make Lyanna abort all future pregnancies, or did he know Lyanna would die in childbirth?

We got into similar issues in a similar thread yesterday, so I hate to reignite a fruitless discussion, but you have so many errors in such a short post, I wanted to clear things up.

The crowning situation looked strange to the tournament goers, but it was not without precedent and we really don't know what Rhaegar said to Elia to address the situation. You are making assumptions, but even if you are correct, it is one event and is not the be-all-and-end-all of the relationship between R&E and between R&L.

As far as the KG, you are not correct. Dane and Whent were assigned to Rhaegar, so yes, they were supposed to be with him. They were not supposed to be with Aerys because Aerys assigned them to Rhaegar. As far as Hightower goes, he is a 100% by-the-book kind of guy, so given that he remained at ToJ, he had a good reason to do so and would not be breaking his vows (I believe a theory that has been put forth on this issue, but outside the scope of this post). The conversation between Ned and the 3 KG make it clear that they did not forsake Aerys because they assert that Aerys would still be on the throne if they had been there to kill Jaime in time. We have no reason to believe the KG were lying to Ned. So your supposition about them turning of Aerys and going "rogue" is contradicted by the text and by logic (given what we know independently about Hightower).

Moon tea is not necessarily 100% effective, and Elia could not take the risk. I think the pregnancy itself could be a risk to her health even with moon tea (it is still a form of pregnancy and birth, even if the baby is still-born). So given this situation, moon tea is not the same as the birth control pill, and Elia could not risk getting pregnant--so sex would be out between R&E.

Your statement about Lyanna's "spawn" being the bane of Aegon's existence also is not based on sufficient facts. We know that Rhaegar discussed the prophesy with Elia. If she believed in it as well, she might have been comfortable that Rhaegar had to marry Lyanna and have a third child to produce the third head of the dragon (and possibly TPTWP if they realized L was ice to R's fire). Again, we just don't have enough facts to make definitive conclusions, but we have enough facts to suspect that Elia might have accepted the arrangement under the circumstances. We certainly cannot be so sure that she was not (even if you think she should have been).

The question I really have for you is whether you are more interested in fighting for a version of the facts that you want to be true or a version that your believe will be true. I only care about trying to figure out what will happen. My personal preference for story lines is irrelevant. I get enjoyment not from arguing in favor of plot points that I would want to see happen, but rather from looking back after the fact and seeing that I was able to figure it out from the clues GRRM left for us. If you simply want to try to figure out what GRRM will have happen, I advise you to stop being so personally invested in your own preferences and look at the clues that have been given to the readers and the actual world that GRRM has constructed (where people behave quite differently than our world--and often differently than you might think they should behave).

I struggle to believe that Elia was so convinced of the prophecy that she had no fear about the danger of Lyanna. If Lyanna had a girl and no other children then sure, minimal threat posed. But if Lyanna had more children, or her first was a boy, Elia should have been afraid. And I can't see her being stupid enough to say 'sure, take a second wife who you clearly love and publicly declared as QoLaB and has significantly better political connections than me, I'm sure that she'll only have one child and it definitely won't be a boy and that nothing bad will come of this.'

[butterbumps!]

Which he can not, marriage is matter of faith and belief, as holy as you get,by eyes of gods and men Rhaegar can't sent Elia a side.

You mean because he literally cannot divorce her and remarry due to some authority preventing it, or are you saying that people as a whole will not recognize Lyanna as queen?

[Wmarshal]

You mean because he literally cannot divorce her and remarry due to some authority preventing it, or are you saying that people as a whole will not recognize Lyanna as queen?

Kind of both ways, I can call myself king of the world, it is not true. Rhaegar can abandon Elia but in the end she his wife.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Rhaegar never believed he would have another male heir. It is implied that he believed him and Lyanna's child would be female.

I don't agree with this statement at all. While it might have been implied that Rhaegar expected to have a girl with Elia if they had a third child--replicating Aegon and his sisters, we have no idea what he thought when he went off with Lyanna. In fact, I believe that he recognized that Lyanna was ice to his fire, and realized that he was wrong about Aegon being TPTWP. Rather, logically, once Rhaegar decided to have a child with Lyanna, I suspect he would have realized that if the song of TPTWP is A Song of Ice and Fire, then the child he had with Lyanna would be that song, personified, and that child would be TPTWP and not his son with Elia (Aegon). If Rhaegar made this connection (and we have some clues that he would have, such as the fact that he already changed him mind once about the identity of TPTWP), then he would have expected his child with Lyanna to be a boy and not a girl.

[butterbumps!]

Kind of both ways, I can call myself king of the world, it is not true. Rhaegar can abandon Elia but in the end she his wife.

Well, the idea that Rhaegar couldn't actually marry someone else due to literally being preventing it doesn't apply. He and Aerys are by design the authorities in Westeros.

And no to the other part as well. Did the rest of Westeros not recognize Targ polygamy or something? Where this would have a future impact is in the event Jon chose to challenge Aegon for the throne. At that point there would have been division, like we see in the other intra-Targ struggles.

Prior to the Rebellion-- and specifically the moment Jon Arryn refuses to obey Aerys' command about Ned and Robert-- the Targ king doesn't have to answer to "the people." What you're talking about is the way it works in a post-Rebellion world.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'm really not so sure about all that. Prince Jon would be second in line for the throne, and Lyanna would be queen once Aerys died.

I think you're thinking about this from a post-Rebellion framework. Like, these people only decided to rebel after Aerys called for Ned and Robert's heads. They weren't going to rebel even though Aerys did that whole mass execution thing. The idea of just rebelling against a king because you don't like something isn't really in the Westerosi vocabulary. Until Arryn refuses to obey the request for Ned and Robert's deaths.

None of these people would have been inclined to rebel against Rhaegar's hypothetical divorce. It took Aerys' calling for more executions to inspire rebellion. They were indulging Aerys' utterly ludicrous commands until then. If Aerys could call for all these people to be executed (pre Ned/ Robert) and not inspire rebellion, I hardly think a simple issue of divorce is going to rouse anyone.

That's basically just the difference between cloak&dagger politics leading to civil war a few years down the road and open civil war right now.

Rhaegar never believed he would have another male heir. It is implied that he believed him and Lyanna's child would be female. To him, that would have solved a good deal of the arguments because House Martell would have still had the heir and the North would just have a connected niece to the throne. At the time Jon was conceived the North was still run by Rickard and had three healthy male heirs with the oldest being betrothed to Riverrun. This would have been a perfect situation for Rhaegar because the only houses he would have to worry about were Lannister and Barratheon. They would most likely not team up and rebel. Jon Arryn was known as a loyal man so he would have followed suit. I think this was part of his plan to oust his father and take the crown. He would have know had four of the seven kingdoms related to him or at least on his side (Martell, Tyrell, Stark, and Tully) and would have had almost no threat from another (Arryn). He probably knew Tywin was cross with the way his father had treated him, so he could find a way to sway him to his side (probably by planning to make him hand again). Now, one the rebellion happened all bets were off and Rhaegar had to try and put it down for his plans to work. He may have realized that everything was too far gone and thus had to lead his father's army to put down the rebellion (hence his talk with Jamie about how things would change when he returned). He was a cocky guy who though that there was no way he would lose.

So, the argument is that Rhaegar was right because as a madman, he assumed to know everything? Well, yes, that's basically the issue. Rhaegar was either mad or enough of an idiot to qualify as mad.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The thing we have to ask is: was Rhaegar only planning on having one child with Lyanna? Was he never planning to sleep with her again, or was he planning to make Lyanna abort all future pregnancies, or did he know Lyanna would die in childbirth?

I struggle to believe that Elia was so convinced of the prophecy that she had no fear about the danger of Lyanna. If Lyanna had a girl and no other children then sure, minimal threat posed. But if Lyanna had more children, or her first was a boy, Elia should have been afraid. And I can't see her being stupid enough to say 'sure, take a second wife who you clearly love and publicly declared as QoLaB and has significantly better political connections than me, I'm sure that she'll only have one child and it definitely won't be a boy and that nothing bad will come of this.'

No I don't think that Elia could be sure that Lyanna would not give birth to a boy, and yes, she might not have been thrilled at the prospect. But under the circumstances, Elia might have decided that Rhaegar having a son with Lyanna was not something she could control and it would be better to make the best of it than to try to do something about it. She also had reason to believe Rhaegar would raise his children to work cooperative together--the heads of the dragon--and try to minimize competing claims. So while Elia might not have been jumping for joy at the prospect, we don't know that she stated uncompromising opposition, and have some reason to believe she would have come to terms with the idea (given her inability to have more children and the need for another head of the dragon).

[butterbumps!]

That's basically just the difference between cloak&dagger politics leading to civil war a few years down the road and open civil war right now.

No it's not. The way it would lead to problems is if Jon chose to challenge Aegon in the future. If he chose not to make this challenge, then it would be business as usual.

[Wmarshal]

Well, the idea that Rhaegar couldn't actually marry someone else due to literally being preventing it doesn't apply. He and Aerys are by design the authorities in Westeros.

And no to the other part as well. Did the rest of Westeros not recognize Targ polygamy or something? Where this would have a future impact is in the event Jon chose to challenge Aegon for the throne. At that point there would have been division, like we see in the other intra-Targ struggles.

Prior to the Rebellion-- and specifically the moment Jon Arryn refuses to obey Aerys' command about Ned and Robert-- the Targ king doesn't have to answer to "the people." What you're talking about is the way it works in a post-Rebellion world.

He could marry another, there is precedent for that, just mot leaving Elia.

Aerys and Rhaegar weren't religious heads. This is a matter of religion. Unlike Daemon he is creating new law all together. Even Jaeherys couldn't get incest changed just a pass, and that was after a decade of war. King's do need to listen to the people else face rebellion.