What do you feel about the romanticization of Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna's story?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Political Implications

The problem that arises is when you involve Jon Snow and any other children that Rhaegar would have had with Lyanna (if he took her as a second wife).

Jon would be better connected than Aegon and Rhaenys (his Uncle (Ned) hold/ will hold the title of Lord Paramount of the North, his Aunt's (Catlyn) Father would be Lord of Paramount of the Riverlands, and Ned would have also been raised by the Lord Paramount of the Vale). Baratheon connections in the Stormlands would be unclear given the fact that Lyanna was betrothed to Robert and Jon would likely have the support of the Reach given the enmity between the the Reach/ Tyrells and Dorne/ Martells.

This, in addition to the fact that Dorne was one of the most disliked Kingdoms in Westeros would have given Elia cause to worry about the status and safety of Aegon. Rhaegar's treatment of Elia and pursuit of Lyanna could have been seen by the people of Westeros as the future King casting aside his first wife because she was "unworthy" of him for a younger, more beautiful Queen from a much more favored Kingdom. Jon would be second in line to Aegon and at least 4, maybe 5 of the Kingdoms of Westeros would prefer a 1/2 Northern King as oppose to a 1/2 Dornish King. Regardless of whether the Starks would endorse it or not, there would be people trying to kill young Aegon to get Jon on the Iron Throne.

IIRC, Elia is one angry Mama Bear when it came to protecting her kids (frail and sickly as she may be, she stood up to Gregor "the Mountain" Clegane to protect Aegon). She was also said to be smart/cunning/clever/witty so I would doubt that she would stand by and do nothing whilst there was an open threat to her son's life and inheritance.

How I imagine events to go down.

This scenario would happen some time after the end of Robert's Rebellion.

Elia would befriend Lyanna, maybe also Ned and the other Starks, and act lovingly towards Jon.

Elia would call up Oberyn and he would either poison Rhaegar and Lyanna with a substance that would kill them slowly (so as to not immediately rouse panic/suspicion) or would kill them himself but make their deaths look like an accident. Oberyn would stay in King's Landing to protect Aegon and Rhaenys.

When Rhaegar and Lyanna die, Aegon will be crowned the new King and Elia would be the Queen Regent, Doran gets called in to be the Hand of the King and Oberyn in made Lord Commander of the King's Guard. This is to ensure a strong Dornish presence in King's Landing.

Elia would take over as young Jon's parental guardian (she's a very maternal figure). She would be as loving to him as she is with her own children and raise him to be close to Aegon and Rhaenys and to be his brother and sister's keeper. She would tell him about the forces that would want to see his brother dead so that he could be King and would influence Jon to be fiercely loyal to Aegon and Rhaenys and fight anything that would act to drive them apart.

Basically, Elia is smart enough to know that despite all of Jon's connections, he can't be blamed for other people's agendas or his parents' actions. She will raise him to to be Aegon's fiercest champion rather than his greatest challenger.

Talk about fanfic. There is nothing in the character of Elia that we have been told about that would support these actions. I think Rhaegar knew Elia well enough to know that this reaction would not be her reaction. But it does not matter because Rhaegar, Lyanna and Elia all died in a different way and speculating in this manner really is pointless, as it does not assist in figuring out what will happen in the rest of the series.

[Wmarshal]

Yea, ok, none of those incidents you mention were remotely, fractionally similar to the sort of rebellion you claim would result from Rhaegar's divorcing Elia. It actuallys illustrates the point that if anyone threw a shitfit over this, they'd be absolute morons to make that challenge.

If a King/ Prince wanted the HS to declare something divorced/ invalidated/ whatever, it would come down to a negotiation. It's not like the HS would refuse out of hand.

I'm still very unclear about what you're arguing about so strongly. Like, seriously, had Rhaegar put Elia aside and formally took Lyanna to wife, this would have probably resulted in far less chaos than what we actually see. I mean, can you please look at this and see that Westeros thinks Rhaegar took Lyanna and absconded with her, and even this was not enough to raise them in revolt?

What the Westerosi saw-- kidnapping a Great Lord's daughter by the Crown prince-- wasn't even enough to get Westeros' panties in a bunch. If Rhaegar made this official, either by putting Elia aside or publicly reinstating polygamy and formally taking Lyanna to wife, then what follows looks incredibly different. As in, going in one of those directions is probably the politically smarter move if the intention all along was to have Lyanna bear his next son.

You said no revolt accorded pre Robert, that is false.

There are plenty of others, DWD this is a war started because a king wanted to change statue quo. FMU was another.

Why wouldn't 't? Elia has been a good wife and done her duty. Rhaegar has no form of real cause here.

Because got himself captured. I see no issue in polygamy, that has standing, but not divorce.

[Ser Eric]

Anything that happened after R&L ran off together is not relevant to the original argument you were making. I understood you to argue that we don't know what would have happened if Rickard and Brandon had not gone to KL. So any reference to asking to kill Ned and Robert is irrelevant because that does not happen if R&B don't go to KL to demand Rhaegar's head (well, only Brandon actually demanded that, but you get the point).

So if R&B don't go to KL, R&B are not killed by Aerys and Aerys does not ask Jon Arryn for the heads of Robert and Ned. You were implying that Robert still could have created major problems for Rhaegar. What are these problems? He could not have started a war over this issue--no one else would have backed him in a war over this alone. He would not have wanted Lyanna at that point--once she has a child with Rhaegar. You keep stating what he would not do (i.e., he would not sit quietly), but what would he do--what could he do?

As to whether R&L could have gotten married, I fail to understand the argument. People might have been upset about the marriage, but if they got married, they would be married. There is no evidence that a consummated polygamous marriage can be annulled due to the polygamy. Even if the Faith hate the idea, they don't say that polygamous marriages are not marriages--just as incestuous marriage would still be marriages. The Faith just don't like them and don't sanction them. But they don't seem to have any power to stop them from happening when the happen. They are still acknowledged as marriages.

Robert could have gone to war over it, seems to be right up his street. And why would no one have backed him? Even the Blackfyre rebellion had backers and this is a legitimate case of one of the Lords have his bride taken away by the heir. He would have backers especially with the general opinion of the people on Aerys. He might not have won of course but there would be damage.

The last polygamous marriage was over 2 centuries ago. Why would Rhaegar go all the way to Dorne if he could have just married her?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

You know, I can paint selling a flat in such a romantic light. It'll be the place where two young people start their shared life, the place that will house their love, their wharf from the burdens of the day, their very own piece of the world, the place where small feet will be running one day.

It doesn't change the fact that I am talking about the sale of a flat.

True. He's telling a story, that's the bottom line, but It is his choice to romanticize the events between Lyanna and Rhaegar. Why? There must be a reason. I personally believe he's trying to tell us that it's a tragic love story that caused a dynastic war. It doesn't make their story less romantic.

[Rorey Targaryen]

You know, I can paint selling a flat in such a romantic light. It'll be the place where two young people start their shared life, the place that will house their love, their wharf from the burdens of the day, their very own piece of the world, the place where small feet will be running one day.

It doesn't change the fact that I am talking about the sale of a flat.

:agree:

No matter how much fluff you try to put on it, a piece of shit is still a piece of shit; and Rhaegar and Lyanna's supposed whirlwind romance and it's aftermath constitute one of the shittiest situations Westeros has ever experienced.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Resembling Baelor the Blessed/the Befuddled.

Rhaegar wasn't mad in a despiccable way like Aerys, but in a sympathic way, like Baelor. That's even more true because he is dead and "speak no ill of the dead" and such.

Hmm, I remember that Jaime Lannister thought highly of Rhaegar but not so much for Baelor the nuts...

snip

I agree that children of different marriages may pose a danger to their siblings regarding inheritance issues. But I see no evidence at all in the text that Elia was a ruthless political mastermind of Littlefinger's calibre. Baristan said that she had "sweet wits" (I think it means no more that she had a sense of polite humor, but I'm not a native english speaker) and that's all.

[Mal Malenkirk]

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had lived, and if the war had not occurred at all, and R&L came back to KL with baby Jon (or whatever his Targ name would have been), a told the world they got married and had a baby, who is going to tell him that he is not married to Lyanna? By what authority? What are you actually arguing? Are you arguing that Rhaegar would have rather had a bastard for the third head of the dragon rather than risk the fall-out of a polygamous marriage? If Rhaegar believed he needed a true Prince, he would have had to marry Lyanna to produce one. Why do you think he would get tied up in legal niceties--especially give past Targ behavior?

I am arguing that Rhaegar could not, in fact, have pulled that off without severe political repercussion. Because The Targaryen were not that strong that they could flaunt Westeros' power structure, traditions and conventions. Maybe they thought they did, but they were proven brutally wrong.

As I wrote a few time already, if it was his Rhaegar's plan, he probably suffered some minor mental illnesses of his own.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiose_delusions

[Anath]

True. He's telling a story, that's the bottom line, but It is his choice to romanticize the events between Lyanna and Rhaegar. Why? There must be a reason. I personally believe he's trying to tell us that it's a tragic love story that caused a dynastic war. It doesn't make their story less romantic.

Right. But the romance gets overblown by the fandom to no end. It's as if a tragic love story could only include people who are perfect or near perfect and took into consideration everyone they hurt and tried not to hurt them.

I call bullshit. It might be romantic all you want but it's romance between two people who chose to act selfishly, caring only for themselves, not the paragons the overblown romance lovers are trying to paint.

You know, there was a real love tragedy here some decades ago. A man and a woman, both married.They decided that divorce wasn't an option, so they shot themselves spectacularly. Like, committed a double suicide.

It was romantic. It was tragic. The non-romantic details included the wife not attending her husband's funeral. Two sets of children left with only one parent. I don't see anything great about it, as romantic as it is.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Robert could have gone to war over it, seems to be right up his street. And why would no one have backed him? Even the Blackfyre rebellion had backers and this is a legitimate case of one of the Lords have his bride taken away by the heir. He would have backers especially with the general opinion of the people on Aerys. He might not have won of course but there would be damage.

The last polygamous marriage was over 2 centuries ago. Why would Rhaegar go all the way to Dorne if he could have just married her?

Why would anyone back Robert? Over what issue? The Blackfyre rebellion was over different Targ factions claiming who was the legit heir. Robert would have been seen as just trying to go to war because he was embarrassed. What would the actual issue have been that would drive the war? And no one went to war for many months after R&L disappeared. Even the murder of Rickard and Brandon did not start the war. Only when Aerys demands the heads of Robert and Ned from Jon Arryn does war become unavoidable because there were orders of the king that could not be obeyed--so the king had to be removed. Rhaegar would have no reason to believe Robert would want to or would be able to start a war solely over the issue of taking Lyanna from him. The politics of Westeros clearly did not work that way, and both Rhaegar and Robert would have known that.

I don't understand your point about the polygamy. Yes, polygamy was not widely accepted as a good practice. Rhaegar knew marrying Lyanna would stir up potential opposition--potentially from Aerys. Rhaegar needed to make the marriage a foregone conclusion that was too late to stop. He married Lyanna and stays hidden until after the baby is born. Once he returns to KL with Lyanna and baby, the rest of Westeros has no choice but to accept the situation. So he married her the way he did because he knew it would be controversial. But controversial is not the same of not possible. In Westeros, if you get married, you are married. So if R&L got married, they would be married. But they could not just "get married" in the usual way because they knew there would be opposition. They needed to stay in hiding until they had a baby to bring home.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Hmm, I remember that Jaime Lannister thought highly of Rhaegar but not so much for Baelor the nuts...

Jaime is a guy who despises religious people while fucking his sister, the King's wife, because of "love". He values "romance" (of a sort), but not faith.

[Rorey Targaryen]

I agree that children of different marriages may pose a danger to their siblings regarding inheritance issues. But I see no evidence at all in the text that Elia was a ruthless political mastermind of Littlefinger's calibre. Baristan said that she had "sweet wits" (I think it means no more that she had a sense of polite humor, but I'm not a native english speaker) and that's all.

Elia was generally polite but Oberyn described her as being particularly fierce when it came to her children. Elia is also described as being smart so she would understand the political implications of such a situation.

I'm not saying that this would be Littlefinger level treachery, but she would be smart and motivated enough to think along the lines of a Lady Olenna Redwyne; doing what's necessary to protect her kids.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Right. But the romance gets overblown by the fandom to no end. It's as if a tragic love story could only include people who are perfect or near perfect and took into consideration everyone they hurt and tried not to hurt them.

I call bullshit. It might be romantic all you want but it's romance between two people who chose to act selfishly, caring only for themselves, not the paragons the overblown romance lovers are trying to paint.

You know, there was a real love tragedy here some decades ago. A man and a woman, both married.They decided that divorce wasn't an option, so they shot themselves spectacularly. Like, committed a double suicide.

It was romantic. It was tragic. The non-romantic details included the wife not attending her husband's funeral. Two sets of children left with only one parent. I don't see anything great about it, as romantic as it is.

I do agree with you. We can't forget the people that paid for the actions that happened because both Rhaegar and Lyanna chose to act selfishly. That's why I personally always preferred Elia Martell over them, but that's off-topic. I don't believe they took into consideration what their actions would make - And that's precisely why I find them reckless! That said, I understand where Lyanna's coming from, and personally, I haven't seen it romanticized as much by the fandom. Most people seem to share the vision that both acted selfish and inconsequential. The true victim, for me, will always be Elia and the children. But that said, I do like the romanticized take George gives us about the affair, and I love the somewhat melancholic vibe it has.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I am arguing that Rhaegar could not, in fact, have pulled that off without severe political repercussion. Because The Targaryen were not that strong that they could flaunt Westeros' power structure, traditions and conventions. Maybe they thought they did, but they were proven brutally wrong.

As I wrote a few time already, if it was his plan, he probably suffered some minor mental illnesses of his own.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiose_delusions

So you agree that a marriage may have occurred? I think the evidence that one did occur is pretty solid (mostly that the 3 KG at ToJ appear to believe Jon is king).

So all you really are arguing about is that if his plan was to marry Lyanna in secret and only return after he could return with a baby and new wife, then he must have a mental illness (delusions of grandeur). If you accept that prophesies are real (which they are in this series) and if you accept that Rhaegar had good reason to believe that if he married Lyanna and they had a son together, their son would be TPTWP (A Song of Ice and Fire--personified), then it looks a lot less crazy to me. But I am not sure why it matters his mental state--it could still be a tragic love story.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I agree that children of different marriages may pose a danger to their siblings regarding inheritance issues. But I see no evidence at all in the text that Elia was a ruthless political mastermind of Littlefinger's calibre. Baristan said that she had "sweet wits" (I think it means no more that she had a sense of polite humor, but I'm not a native english speaker) and that's all.

Elia really does not have to be the mastermind. Unless dealing with a medicis type of woman, it's rarely the wife who would be pressing her sons claim, it's other powerful men who would prefer a different kings for various reasons.

[Wmarshal]

Elia really does not have to be the mastermind. Unless dealing with a medicis type of woman, it's rarely the wife who would be pressing her sons claim, it's other powerful men who would prefer a different kings for various reasons.

Like a Dorne hating Mace can declare for Jon.

[Ser Eric]

Why would anyone back Robert? Over what issue? The Blackfyre rebellion was over different Targ factions claiming who was the legit heir. Robert would have been seen as just trying to go to war because he was embarrassed. What would the actual issue have been that would drive the war? And no one went to war for many months after R&L disappeared. Even the murder of Rickard and Brandon did not start the war. Only when Aerys demands the heads of Robert and Ned from Jon Arryn does war become unavoidable because there were orders of the king that could not be obeyed--so the king had to be removed. Rhaegar would have no reason to believe Robert would want to or would be able to start a war solely over the issue of taking Lyanna from him. The politics of Westeros clearly did not work that way, and both Rhaegar and Robert would have known that.

I don't understand your point about the polygamy. Yes, polygamy was not widely accepted as a good practice. Rhaegar knew marrying Lyanna would stir up potential opposition--potentially from Aerys. Rhaegar needed to make the marriage a foregone conclusion that was too late to stop. He married Lyanna and stays hidden until after the baby is born. Once he returns to KL with Lyanna and baby, the rest of Westeros has no choice but to accept the situation. So he married her the way he did because he knew it would be controversial. But controversial is not the same of not possible. In Westeros, if you get married, you are married. So if R&L got married, they would be married. But they could not just "get married" in the usual way because they knew there would be opposition. They needed to stay in hiding until they had a baby to bring home.

Aerys demanding Ned and Rob's head was the immediate cause of rebelling, not the sole reason. In fact, why do you think Aerys demanded Robert's head at all? Robert was a threat simply because he was the Lord of one of the kingdoms and was betrothed to the girl his son foolishly kidnapped. I cannot take you seriously if you are suggesting Robert would have done nothing. He would have gone to war (going by his nature) and would have likely had other supporters, maybe even Jon Arryn for all we know.

[Rorey Targaryen]

There is nothing in the character of Elia that we have been told about that would support these actions. I think Rhaegar knew Elia well enough to know that this reaction would not be her reaction. But it does not matter because Rhaegar, Lyanna and Elia all died in a different way and speculating in this manner really is pointless, as it does not assist in figuring out what will happen in the rest of the series.

1. On the same merit, there's nothing in the text to support the notion that Elia was buying into Rhaegar's prophetic ramblings. All we know for a fact is that he told her. We don't know her reaction. It could go either way. However, any mother who cares about her children as Elia does would be cautious of such a threat posed to them.

2. I was referring to the political implications of Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions (if they have children because of their alleged relationship, what would that mean). It's called discussing a hypothetical situation as such implications would only come into play if Rhaegar won.

3. Robert won the Rebellion so OBVIOUSLY the political situation that I outlined has no bearings on the story as is. SEE POINT #2.

[Anath]

I do agree with you. We can't forget the people that paid for the actions that happened because both Rhaegar and Lyanna chose to act selfishly. That's why I personally always preferred Elia Martell over them, but that's off-topic. I don't believe they took into consideration what their actions would make - And that's precisely why I find them reckless! That said, I understand where Lyanna's coming from, and personally, I haven't seen it romanticized as much by the fandom. Most people seem to share the vision that both acted selfish and inconsequential. The true victim, for me, will always be Elia and the children. But that said, I do like the romanticized take George gives us about the affair, and I love the somewhat melancholic vibe it has.

I can't help but notice that the only one besides Lyanna's loving brother who might know the truth for what it was gives us indication that he doesn't consider it all cute, fluffy, and worthy. I am talking about Howland Reed. The fandom goes on and on raving how wonderful Lyanna was for saving him, yet, if she was indeed tKotLT, Howland shows remarkable reservations towards her in failing to describe her as beautiful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and everyone talking about Lyanna has mentioned how lovely she was. Would the one who has a sound reason to admire and be grateful to her really fail to mention this when talking about her? Especially when he made a point to tell his children how beautiful Elia was - Elia whom he had never talked in person. Lyanna doesn't get singled out as one of the most beautiful ladies at the tourney. To me, that speaks of disappointment. She disappointed him and lost a good deal of her "beauty" for him.

Talking of romance, Howland's lack of acknowledgment of her beauty might be just as meaningful as "all the smiles died" and everything else.

[Wmarshal]

Aerys demanding Ned and Rob's head was the immediate cause of rebelling, not the sole reason. In fact, why do you think Aerys demanded Robert's head at all? Robert was a threat simply because he was the Lord of one of the kingdoms and was betrothed to the girl his son foolishly kidnapped. I cannot take you seriously if you are suggesting Robert would have done nothing. He would have gone to war (going by his nature) and would have likely had other supporters, maybe even Jon Arryn for all we know.

People act as if Rickard and Robert sat on their butts for a year before Brandon went to kl

[Mal Malenkirk]

So you agree that a marriage may have occurred? I think the evidence that one did occur is pretty solid (mostly that the 3 KG at ToJ appear to believe Jon is king).

So all you really are arguing about is that if his plan was to marry Lyanna in secret and only return after he could return with a baby and new wife, then he must have a mental illness (delusions of grandeur). If you accept that prophesies are real (which they are in this series) and if you accept that Rhaegar had good reason to believe that if he married Lyanna and they had a son together, their son would be TPTWP (A Song of Ice and Fire--personified), then it looks a lot less crazy to me. But I am not sure why it matters his mental state--it could still be a tragic love story.

He sure could have twisted a septon's arm. But I think that even if Brandon is not reckless, he stills ends up in a shitstorm because of his plan. There was no part of it that was well thought out in the environment that he operated in.

And yes, we know that prophecies are real, to a point. We also have no indication that you need to consciously make them happen! They just do. One of the clearest vision/prophecy in the entire book was Daenerys foreseeing the Red Wedding at the house of the undying. What did she have to do to make it happen? Nothing! To this day she does not know what it meant.

Rhaegar seemed to have thought he was some kind of messiah. Delusions of Grandeur, AFAIC. He should have focused on good governance. Prophecies would have unfolded on their own if they were meant to be.