What do you feel about the romanticization of Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna's story?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No it's not. The way it would lead to problems is if Jon chose to challenge Aegon in the future. If he chose not to make this challenge, then it would be business as usual.

And if neither House Stark, House Arryn, House Tully or literally anybody else would try to exploit it. Or the generation(s) thereafter.

That chance is negligible.

[Rorey Targaryen]

The problem with the idea that Elia was totally OK with Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying is that Elia would have to be stupid or naive to not see the dangerous political threat that Lyanna poses.

Basically, from Aegon's point of view, all siblings are something of a threat. That's why parents try to raise their children to be close to one another, so that their children don't fight over succession. Look at Stannis and Renly, or, if you want a Targaryen example, the Blackfyre rebellions (and that was just over a legitimised bastard). A sibling from a second marriage is even more of a threat. Particularly since Jon Targaryen would have significantly better support than Aegon. Aegon has the support of Dorne, one of the weakest of the Great Houses. Jon would have the North, the Riverlands, probably the Vale and probably the Tyrells as well (they have a long-standing enmity of the Dornish). If civil war should break out, like it did with the Blackfyres, then Elia's children are in a very dangerous position. Now, there's no guarantee that war will break out, but it's definitely possible. I mean for God's sake, if you take a second wife in Westeros, take it from a significantly weaker House to ensure that they pose minimal threat to your already existing children.

Most of Westeros would have seen one queen or the other as the true queen. Power resides where people believe it resides and if one is believed to be the true queen, that is where the Lords of Westeros will flock to. There are two main possibilities.

Elia's position at court would be significantly weakened. Rhaegar crowning Lyanna QoLaB and then marrying her would be seen as a very clear sign: Lyanna is Rhaegar's true wife and queen. It is not, therefore, hard to see why some may also see Lyanna's children as the true heirs.

Or Lyanna would be seen as little more than Rhaegar's mistress. Just because the Targaryens have practiced polygamy before doesn't mean the Lords of Westeros would treat the second wife as a real wife. Lyanna would be at court, surrounded by people who basically view her as a concubine and her children as little more than bastards.

I just don't believe that Elia was stupid or naive enough not to see how dangerous Lyanna was to her children. And, in my opinion, Rhaegar's treatment of Elia was all-round disgusting.

:agree:

The thing I find is that alot of hardcore fans of R+L=J is that they have rose tinted goggles on when it comes to both Rhaegar and Lyanna that they either just disregard Elia and her kids or they try to make excuses for what Rhaegar and Lyanna did.

In my view, Elia was a stronger character than either Rhaegar or Lyanna.

For Rhaegar's part: What kind of "good husband" or "dutiful Prince" would leave his wife (who I would remind you would have still been bedridden form birthing him a male heir) and his two infant children (one of them being HIS LEGITIMATE MALE HEIR) in the hands of his batshit crazy father (which he knows to be this way) to abscond with teenage girl from an important family.

For Lyanna's part: It was an extremely selfish move from a naive girl (presuming that she went of her own free will). People make excuses for her saying that she was disgusted by Robert's philandering and wanted to escape him. However, this would make Lyanna into a big, fat hypocrite. Lyanna would have known that Rhaegar was married and his wife would have recently given birth, but (under the presumption that shew went willingly) she still went with this man, consenting to his infidelity. Further, she would have left without telling her family anything or to reassure them of her safety. This was a stupid move because it left the Starks with the impression that she was taken against her will. Lyanna know how stupid, irrational and reckless Brandon was. The entire realm (including Lyanna) would have known how crazy and sadistic the Mad King was. All things considered, it would have been reasonably foreseeable that Brandon would have done something stupid like ride down to King's Landing in a fury to confront Rhaegar/ Aerys. Probably knowing that it would have been Aerys, it would have been reasonably foreseeable to see that some catastrophic shit would go down that would not only affect the parties involved but also ad the potential to affect the realm at large (if not Robert's Rebellion, then a likely war of succession between Aegon and Jon).

Now Elia: People (both in the books and even more so in the fandom) paint Rhaegar as the brave, flawless silver haired Prince and Lyanna as this pristine, strong and independent Wolf Girl. In my opinion, Elia was the bravest and strongest of the three parties involved. Rhaegar embarrassed and humiliated her in the eyes of the general public with his actions both at the Tourney at Harrenhal and by running off with Lyanna (interpreted as him casting her aside and saying that she isn't good enough for him when he could get Lyanna),yet, she had the strength of character to rise above this slight and give birth to the crowned Prince, a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. After Rheagar left, Elia fought her way back to relative health so that she would be strong enough to be there for her children. She almost died giving birth to Aegon, yet, she fed the babe from her own breast and put her children's needs above her own health. Finally, we have the sack of King's Landing. We are told of how much of a badass Lyanna because of how she stood up for Howland Reed and was allegedly the Knight of the Laughing Tree, however, this pales in comparison to what Elia did. It is said that she fought like a Tigress against Gregor Clegane in defence of her child/ren. I repeat, frail and sickly Elia Martell stood against the FREAKING MOUNTAIN in an effort to protect her children.

Elia suffered the most out of all three and her and her children (possibly Rhaenys alone) ended up paying the ultimate price.

[Wmarshal]

No it's not. The way it would lead to problems is if Jon chose to challenge Aegon in the future. If he chose not to make this challenge, then it would be business as usual.

A younger half sibling waging war has been the cause of most of the Targ conflicts.

[Hodor the Articulate]

That's an interesting possibility. It would cast Lyanna in rather a more negative light.

How so? I think it's natural to be repelled by people that are disrespectful to us (Robert), and to be drawn to people that love us (Rhaegar).

It's definitely possible. Interestingly, in this case I think Lyanna would have many similar feelings as Jon Snow has when he's sleeping with Ygritte; it feels right and wonderful and good, but it's a betrayal of what the character stands for. Perhaps she felt like that anyway, but if it started out as platonic I think that those feelings would be stronger.

I don't think Lyanna took a moral stand against infidelity. Robert's whoring was simply ONE of the things she disliked about him.

[UnmaskedLurker]

A younger half sibling waging war has been the cause of most of the Targ conflicts.

Valid observations, but Elia had reason to believe this situation would be different. In DoD 1.0, the older sibling was female which cause a problem for many who did not want to be ruled by a Queen when a male heir was available. In the Blackfyre Rebellion, there were many issues between the blacks and the green, and there was a potential pretense to argue that Aemon and Naerys were in love and thus Daeron was their son. Here, Elia knew that Rhaegar had every incentive to raise the children to be allies and not enemies--to work together as the heads of the dragon. Aegon's paternity was not in doubt, so Jon would have no pretense to claim the throne over Aegon. So yes, Elia had some reason for concern, but she also had reason to come to terms with the situation and accept it.

[butterbumps!]

He could marry another, there is precedent for that, just mot leaving Elia.

Aerys and Rhaegar weren't religious heads. This is a matter of religion. Unlike Daemon he is creating new law all together. Even Jaeherys couldn't get incest changed just a pass, and that was after a decade of war. King's do need to listen to the people else face rebellion.

Um, no, really, it's not. Prior to Jon Arryn's refusal to obey Aerys, the idea of rebelling against things the Targ family does that you dislike is unheard of. I'm getting a little tired of pointing this out. If Rhaegar wants a divorce, he gets a divorce. That's how pre-Rebellion Westeros worked.

And if neither House Stark, House Arryn, House Tully or literally anybody else would try to exploit it. Or the generation(s) thereafter.

That chance is negligible.

What's your point, though? This is the case anytime there's an issue of 2 wives at some point. Whether it's the first wife's death and then remarriage, polygamy, or putting one wife aside.

A younger half sibling waging war has been the cause of most of the Targ conflicts.

Uh, ok? And that doesn't have anything to do with a rebellion spear-headed by the people about the sanctity of marriage.

I'm really not understanding what you two are disagreeing with so strongly. The fact that I said Rhaegar's not simply putting her aside might be indication that there's some sort of agreement made? Had Rhaegar truly wanted to, he could have put her aside. Easily. He's the authority in Westeros (or at least via Aerys). His not going for this option strikes me as suggestive that he had a different scenario in mind, potentially having some kind of intention for polygamy. This isn't a wildly outrageous point to make, as that's the traditional Targ work-around for such issues. And further, it's Rhaegar who has the upper hand-- he could remove Elia as queen, so the fact that he chose against this option strikes me as something that might have been a bargaining point.

[WSmith84]

No I don't think that Elia could be sure that Lyanna would not give birth to a boy, and yes, she might not have been thrilled at the prospect. But under the circumstances, Elia might have decided that Rhaegar having a son with Lyanna was not something she could control and it would be better to make the best of it than to try to do something about it. She also had reason to believe Rhaegar would raise his children to work cooperative together--the heads of the dragon--and try to minimize competing claims. So while Elia might not have been jumping for joy at the prospect, we don't know that she stated uncompromising opposition, and have some reason to believe she would have come to terms with the idea (given her inability to have more children and the need for another head of the dragon).

This is possible, but it means Elia has to leave an awful lot to chance. What if Jon grows up hating Aegon, or grows up to be easily manipulated by others who may want to put him on the throne? What if (because Elia probably had little way of knowing otherwise) Lyanna was an ambitious woman who wanted to marry Rhaegar because she wasn't satisfied with merely being Lady of the Stormlands? What if the Starks decided to push their claim to the throne? What if Rhaegar favoured Jon because he loved Lyanna and not Elia? It's difficult to surmise what Elia might have felt about all of this, because we don't know if Rhaegar convinced her, if she ever met Lyanna and discussed it etc. Still, they have to be considered.

Also, leaving your wife in the care of your mad father is a dick move. And leaving your new wife who is pregnant with your second in line or third in line with three KG, taking three KG for yourself but leaving your first wife, first born and first in line with only one KG, the youngest and greenest and not one of Rhaegar's confidants, seems like a dick move. Could he not have given them two each?

I think Elia is one of those characters that really got a shit hand dealt to her and doesn't nearly get enough sympathy, nor does she get enough credit for how she dealt with it. Rhaegar and Lyanna may well be a tragic love story, but the real victims were Elia and her children.

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is possible, but it means Elia has to leave an awful lot to chance. What if Jon grows up hating Aegon, or grows up to be easily manipulated by others who may want to put him on the throne? What if (because Elia probably had little way of knowing otherwise) Lyanna was an ambitious woman who wanted to marry Rhaegar because she wasn't satisfied with merely being Lady of the Stormlands? What if the Starks decided to push their claim to the throne? What if Rhaegar favoured Jon because he loved Lyanna and not Elia? It's difficult to surmise what Elia might have felt about all of this, because we don't know if Rhaegar convinced her, if she ever met Lyanna and discussed it etc. Still, they have to be considered.

Also, leaving your wife in the care of your mad father is a dick move. And leaving your new wife who is pregnant with your second in line or third in line with three KG, taking three KG for yourself but leaving your first wife, first born and first in line with only one KG, the youngest and greenest and not one of Rhaegar's confidants, seems like a dick move. Could he not have given them two each?

I think Elia is one of those characters that really got a shit hand dealt to her and doesn't nearly get enough sympathy, nor does she get enough credit for how she dealt with it. Rhaegar and Lyanna may well be a tragic love story, but the real victims were Elia and her children.

We agree that in theory, Elia might have been worried and there certainly is evidence that she had some justification in being worried about a competing heir. But if the question is--did R discuss marrying L with E and did E eventually accept the situation, I think we have some clues that this might have happened. What alternative would E really have? Would she try to convince R to stop being obsessed with the prophesy? Would she go to Aerys to try to get him to stop R? The bottom line is that E is described as being someone who took her duties seriously. Her duty in this circumstance would be to accept R's decision about marrying L and make the best of the situation.

[WSmith84]

How so? I think it's natural to be repelled by people that are disrespectful to us (Robert), and to be drawn to people that love us (Rhaegar).

I don't think Lyanna took a moral stand against infidelity. Robert's whoring was simply ONE of the things she disliked about him.

Well, all Lyanna mentions to Ned (that we know of) is that she didn't think he would be faithful to her and she seems to object to that. I made the assumption that she was therefore against adultery. If she ran off with Rhaegar and he committed adultery, not against her but against Elia and Lyanna didn't care, I would suggest that that would be an unpleasant attitude for her to take. Natural perhaps, but unpleasant.

Of course, maybe she didn't care about infidelity, just about the way Robert did it.

[Wmarshal]

Um, no, really, it's not. Prior to Jon Arryn's refusal to obey Aerys, the idea of rebelling against things the Targ family does that you dislike is unheard of. I'm getting a little tired of pointing this out. If Rhaegar wants a divorce, he gets a divorce. That's how pre-Rebellion Westeros worked.

What's your point, though? This is the case anytime there's an issue of 2 wives at some point. Whether it's the first wife's death and then remarriage, polygamy, or putting one wife aside.

Uh, ok? And that doesn't have anything to do with a rebellion spear-headed by the people about the sanctity of marriage.

I'm really not understanding what you two are disagreeing with so strongly. The fact that I said Rhaegar's not simply putting her aside might be indication that there's some sort of agreement made? Had Rhaegar truly wanted to, he could have put her aside. Easily. He's the authority in Westeros (or at least via Aerys). His not going for this option strikes me as suggestive that he had a different scenario in mind, potentially having some kind of intention for polygamy. This isn't a wildly outrageous point to make, as that's the traditional Targ work-around for such issues.

Duskendale, Vulture King, Skagos, Starpike, all rebels. Dicorce is not aloud, the Targs are not the religious head.

And it always leads to schism.

I was answering your quote.

And no he could not. The crown has no such power. Even Aemon would need HS to break a oath.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, all Lyanna mentions to Ned (that we know of) is that she didn't think he would be faithful to her and she seems to object to that. I made the assumption that she was therefore against adultery. If she ran off with Rhaegar and he committed adultery, not against her but against Elia and Lyanna didn't care, I would suggest that that would be an unpleasant attitude for her to take. Natural perhaps, but unpleasant.

Of course, maybe she didn't care about infidelity, just about the way Robert did it.

More likely, she came to terms with the idea of polygamy (especially given that E probably could not be intimate with R again due to pregnancy being a risk of death) and agreed to marry R as his second wife. No adultery would be involved--more like serial monogamy, but with the prior marriage not dissolved.

[WSmith84]

We agree that in theory, Elia might have been worried and there certainly is evidence that she had some justification in being worried about a competing heir. But if the question is--did R discuss marrying L with E and did E eventually accept the situation, I think we have some clues that this might have happened. What alternative would E really have? Would she try to convince R to stop being obsessed with the prophesy? Would she go to Aerys to try to get him to stop R? The bottom line is that E is described as being someone who took her duties seriously. Her duty in this circumstance would be to accept R's decision about marrying L and make the best of the situation.

Yep, we definitely agree in theory. It may have been just as you said. But the OP was asking about the romanticization of the story and I personally think that, given Rhaegar's treatment of Elia (whether she tried to make the best of it or not), it was not a romantic story.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Relevant to the conversation; The Targaryen haven't practiced polygamy since the death of their dragons because they no longer had the clout to flaunt traditions.

I don't know why so many people seem certain Lyanna and Rhaegar could be married and it would be recognized. When is the last case of polygamy in the Targaryen family? Maegor the Cruel was 250 years ago. Anything more recent?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't think Lyanna took a moral stand against infidelity. Robert's whoring was simply ONE of the things she disliked about him.

Agree, completely.

Robert's "nature" had nothing to do with his whoring but his personality, which Lyanna actually got right. Robert wasn't a man who would stay in one place, whether is his own castle or his own bed. Lyanna realised she would become one of his many distractions and people get often bored of them as soon as they're not new anymore. And we do know that Robert tried to evade responsibilities like it's the plague. If Robert hadn't been King but just the Lord of SE, he wouldn't stay at home but would try to go and find adventure somewhere, maybe realising his dream of being a sellsword in Essos.

Besides that, we know nothing of Rhaegar or Elia or their relationship.

I think something very important must have happened for Rhaegar to leave Elia

I don't believe Rhaegar "left" Elia, he left KL with the intention to plan to depose his father, which he admitted should have done sooner. Lyanna is something that happened later, and he had to go along.

If we use a parallel in the story, Jon (his alleged son) saw himself in a similar situation when he was sent to infiltrate among the wildings. It was Qorin the one telling him that he needed to do anything they asked them too in order to live among them, and that included Ygritte. According to Ygritte's culture, she was 'kidnapped' by Jon, and they ended up loving each other, despite his vows, which he often realise he shouldn't betray. Jon often thinks if his father once faced a similar situation when he slept with his mother, and in fact, it did happened but not to Ned but Rhaegar.

In Jon's situation, he was part of a bigger scenario: fighting the others. In Rhaegar's case, the big picture was being apart from KL to try to take down Aerys. I'm sure it wasn't an easy situation for Rhaegar, because he had vows as a married man and a Prince, and had the same considerations Jon had about his own vows.

[Ser Eric]

From what we know so far, I'd write off both Rhaegar and Lyanna as irresponsible with Rhaegar taking the greater share of the blame because he was older and in a position of greater responsibility.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yep, we definitely agree in theory. It may have been just as you said. But the OP was asking about the romanticization of the story and I personally think that, given Rhaegar's treatment of Elia (whether she tried to make the best of it or not), it was not a romantic story.

It could still be a tragic romance--R stuck in a marriage with E and being in love with L with a prophesy to fulfill (third head, etc.). He makes the situation as OK with E as possible and then goes off with his true love and they both die tragically. Not a perfect romance--who would expect such from GRRM in any event, but a tragic romance of sorts.

[butterbumps!]

Duskendale, Vulture King, Skagos, Starpike, all rebels. Dicorce is not aloud, the Targs are not the religious head.

And it always leads to schism.

I was answering your quote.

And no he could not. The crown has no such power. Even Aemon would need HS to break a oath.

Yea, ok, none of those incidents you mention were remotely, fractionally similar to the sort of rebellion you claim would result from Rhaegar's divorcing Elia. It actuallys illustrates the point that if anyone threw a shitfit over this, they'd be absolute morons to make that challenge.

If a King/ Prince wanted the HS to declare something divorced/ invalidated/ whatever, it would come down to a negotiation. It's not like the HS would refuse out of hand.

I'm still very unclear about what you're arguing about so strongly. Like, seriously, had Rhaegar put Elia aside and formally took Lyanna to wife, this would have probably resulted in far less chaos than what we actually see. I mean, can you please look at this and see that Westeros thinks Rhaegar took Lyanna and absconded with her, and even this was not enough to raise them in revolt?

What the Westerosi saw-- kidnapping a Great Lord's daughter by the Crown prince-- wasn't even enough to get Westeros' panties in a bunch. If Rhaegar made this official, either by putting Elia aside or publicly reinstating polygamy and formally taking Lyanna to wife, then what follows looks incredibly different. As in, going in one of those directions is probably the politically smarter move if the intention all along was to have Lyanna bear his next son.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Relevant to the conversation; The Targaryen haven't practiced polygamy since the death of their dragons because they no longer had the clout to flaunt traditions.

I don't know why so many people seem certain Lyanna and Rhaegar could be married and it would be recognized. When is the last case of polygamy in the Targaryen family? Maegor the Cruel was 250 years ago. Anything more recent?

GRRM said he would have to look back "or make it up" in terms of more recent polygamy. GRRM suggested it became harder after no dragons--but harder means not impossible. If it became impossible, GRRM might have said it became impossible--but he did not.

Rhaegar had a prophesy to fulfill. If he thought marrying Lyanna was necessary to that prophesy, he would marry her and worry about the fall-out from the polygamous marriage later. But again, we don't know for sure what happened. The question is under what reasonable circumstances "could" the relationship be "romantic" in some way or form. A marriage in many people's eyes would enhance the romanticism. GRRM certainly has given clues that R&L might have been married (actually, the clues are rather overwhelming, given the behavior of the 3 KG at ToJ).

[Ser Eric]

We'll never know what might have happened had Rickard and Brandon not gone to KL. I, somehow doubt Robert would have been content to sit in the Eyrie doing nothing while Rhaegar and Lyanna had babies.

The idea that Rhaegar could have done anything to break Lyanna's engagement to Robert is ridiculous.

[UnmaskedLurker]

We'll never know what might have happened had Rickard and Brandon not gone to KL. I, somehow doubt Robert would have been content to sit in the Eyrie doing nothing while Rhaegar and Lyanna had babies.

The idea that Rhaegar could have done anything to break Lyanna's engagement to Robert is ridiculous.

What would Robert have done? I think getting married to someone else pretty much puts an end to the engagement, so if R&L were married, the engagement was broken. Robert may be have been upset, but he would not have been able to get anyone to join him in war on that basis. Robert certainly would not try to get Lyanna back at that point, with her married to Rhaegar and having had his child. But Robert's feelings are not really that important. The war was dependent on Jon Arryn being asked essentially to kill two innocent High Lords--that was enough to bring Houses to war. Steeling Robert's fiance would not have been enough.