RickonKITN Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Hi , been lurking here for a while and have just finished reading the books- decided I'd finally join in :)I really have next to no major criticisms of George and his story but jeez, the whole tywin and shae thing man....Am I the only one that found it really really cheap , unnecessary and (as per the thread title) , lazy? The whole chapter and scene is great without it, the climax of Tywin and Tyrions relationship which was in the making ever since Tywins refusal to grant Tyrion CR , probably long before that in all honesty , it's been in the making since the day Thrion was born. With Tywin about to put Tyrion to death despite his innocence , and the whole Tysha thing - there's more than enough drama there. I dunno it just seems to me that George tried to pile some last minute cheap heat onto the big bad Lord Tywin by making him a despicable hypocrite. To me he achieves little - Tywin has been built up towards his demise more than enough already . All that's achieved by having shae involved is the diminishment of every little bit of Tywins character development to that point, all for the sake of trying to make the reader punch the air when he finally gets his comeuppance - when they're more or less already at that point. As I said I don't have many criticisms of the books, but this was so pointless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerKurt Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yeh i've never really thought of it like that but i agree, it does sound a little contradictory for tywin, who i was always thought walked the walk as well as talked the talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlandReed'sWorth Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I thought it was kind of funny that he was such a hypocrite. Because in the end you find out he was "full of shit" ;) literally and metaphorically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aredhel Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I read in one of Martin`s interviews that probably Shae was there because of Varys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cxvb Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I read in one of Martin`s interviews that probably Shae was there because of Varys.No, you didn't. http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/"As to precisely what happened here, thats something I dont really want to talk about because theres still aspects of it I havent revealed that will be revealed in later books. But the role of Varys in all of this is also something to be considered." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I definitely had the feeling that her being there was incredibly odd when I was reading it for the first time. I can accept that Tywin sleeps with whores but I am more in the camp that she was planted there by Varys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Khal Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I thought it was kind of funny that he was such a hypocrite. Because in the end you find out he was "full of shit" ;) literally and metaphorically. Yeah I share this opinion, that even men that come once in a thousand years have their own flaws. But somehow it brings a bit of realism, he's still a man subject to our desires. The fact that troubled me a bit about him was not him having a whore, but not marrying again once the succession of the Westerlands got a bit cloudy (Jaimes KG oath to start with). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I thought it was kind of funny that he was such a hypocrite. Because in the end you find out he was "full of shit" ;) literally and metaphorically. I don't think it makes him a hypocrite. He was OK with Tyrion's whoring as long as he did it discretely and didn't marry them or bring them to court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 This is not a closed case as George told in the interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 There's a long running theory that Tywin had no clue Shae was there, that he was poisoned with that drug that keeps you on the loo for long periods, and that Varys planted Shae for Tyrion to find. The fact that troubled me a bit about him was not him having a whore, but not marrying again once the succession of the Westerlands got a bit cloudy (Jaimes KG oath to start with). I think there's a potential problem of lack of eligible wives: you would need someone of a decent social standing, and there aren't that many possibilities floating around who would fit with Tywin's age range. Besides, in an emergency there is always Kevan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Personally, I think Shae being a plant would be a whole lot "lazier" than the other option. The idea that Tywin sleeps with prostitutes says volumes about his character, and his relationship with other characters. The idea that Varys planted her just means that he's fucking with people. Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Khal Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 There's a long running theory that Tywin had no clue Shae was there, that he was poisoned with that drug that keeps you on the loo for long periods, and that Varys planted Shae for Tyrion to find. I think there's a potential problem of lack of eligible wives: you would need someone of a decent social standing, and there aren't that many possibilities floating around who would fit with Tywin's age range. Besides, in an emergency there is always Kevan. Good points. Yet I would say the "age range" isn't that important, he can pull of a "Walder Frey". There are 2 distinct aspects of this : 1. a young wife from a noble house (second wife, so she might not be from one of the paramount families or higher lords) with the intention of producing heirs. 2. A marriage-alliance as in he marries an older Lady ( which rules ion her own right) These kinds of marriages without good chances of producing heirs happened in medieval Europe all the time for alliances, so this would be something Tywin must have thought about at some point. (should have married Maege Mormont to pacify the north :P ) But I think we are getting out of topic :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Wedding Cake Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Catching Tywin with Shae was the first -- and last -- moment of weakness we see from Tywin Lannister. It also makes us re-evaluate what Shae's role with Tyrion was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I love the idea that Tywin was the Hand that built the tunnel from the Tower of the Hand to the whore house, and that he was actually a frequent visitor. But, after Cersei had Alyana (sp?) Whipped and beaten, he was no longer welcome there. This lead him to have to find a new whore, and Shae was not onlu convenient, but a great kick at Tyrion when he's down. I'm sure Tywin would have let him know all about it before having Tyrion killed. So I don't think it's actually lazy, I think it's pretty complex. You need all those little clues, like that it was a Hand who built the tunnel, and that Alyana was brutally beaten, in order for it to make sense. I think Varys simply planting her with no knowledge from Tywin would be a heck of a lot lazier. I think Varys played a part, maybe he suggested her as a whore for Tywin when he couldn't go to his normal whore house anymore? But I don't think it was some elaborately executed ruse that Tywin was unaware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 There is a very elaborate theory (which I like very much) discussed many years ago on this board according to which Tywin has no idea Shae is in the room. He's poisoned by Widow's blood (exactly has Tyrion has done with Cersei a book before), has been on the shitter for hours. Varys has planted Shae in the room (exactly as he has done that a book earlier). This was Varys's plan all along, and it completely didn't work (and turned out to be unnecessary, given the whole kingslaying debacle.) Varys planted Shae, poisoned Tywin, put the dagger in the right position, placed the chest under the crossbow, and sent Tyrion up the stairs. In the worst case, Tyrion would die (no loss). In the best case, he'd kill his father and become forever estranged from his family (super outcome for Varys). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Old thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/31431-shae-and-tywin/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Am I the only one that found it really really cheap , unnecessary and (as per the thread title) , lazy? The whole chapter and scene is great without it, the climax of Tywin and Tyrions relationship which was in the making ever since Tywins refusal to grant Tyrion CR , probably long before that in all honesty , it's been in the making since the day Thrion was born. With Tywin about to put Tyrion to death despite his innocence , and the whole Tysha thing - there's more than enough drama there. I dunno it just seems to me that George tried to pile some last minute cheap heat onto the big bad Lord Tywin by making him a despicable hypocrite. To me he achieves little - Tywin has been built up towards his demise more than enough already . All that's achieved by having shae involved is the diminishment of every little bit of Tywins character development to that point, all for the sake of trying to make the reader punch the air when he finally gets his comeuppance - when they're more or less already at that point. As I said I don't have many criticisms of the books, but this was so pointless... I certainly agree that IF this was the point of the passage, it is bad, cheap writing. I am reserving judgment in the hope that we will find that there is more to it that GRRM has not revealed, as others have discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Na it adds another layer to Tywin's character and makes him even more of a dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Ah, and even my parody, INFOCOM-style, from 2006: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/1430-if-asoiaf-was-written-by-some-other-authors/page-9?p=276731 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I thought it was a little odd and out of place. If it turns out that Varys put her there in the hopes that Tyrion would find her and go on a murder spree....ugh....that will be really silly to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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