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Did anyone in the series get screwed over more than Robb Stark?


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#1 Robb_Warged

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:31 PM

Sorry for another thread on Robb.  Seems like everyday there is a new thread pondering what the Young Wolf should had done differently.  It's all the threads about him that has got me thinking; out of all the characters in this series, was anyone more screwed over than him?

 

 

His mom betrays him, his brother (Theon) betrays him, his family (Uncle Edmure for example) lets him down, his bannermen didn't show enough respect for his judgment (Lord Karstark), and he had a complete Judas Iscariot in his midst (Roose)

 

 

I often see this belief that Robb was an idiot and had his death coming to him for making awful choices.  Compared to any leader in this series though, were his poor decisions blatantly worse than any other poor choices made by other leaders in this story?

 

I will give you marrying Jeyne and breaking his promise to the Frey's (a promise his mother made for him that he did not give approval to or know about at the time) as arguably the worst decision anyone has made in this series.  Besides that though, I think this notion that he made awful choices is overblown and fueled by the fact that he is dead.

 

So getting back to the original question of this thread, is there any other character in the series surrounded by such unloyal, inept, and opportunistic bannermen and family/friends as what Robb had to deal with during the WoT5K?


Edited by Robb_Warged, 02 August 2014 - 01:32 PM.


#2 Ser Eric

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:39 PM

I really feel sorry for him.

 

Everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong. People he thought he could trust fucked him over. Hell, even his own dick betrayed him! All that after being thrust into the limelight before he had been ready for it.



#3 Mladen

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:45 PM

1. His mother didn't betray him.

2. Theon isn't his brother, which he was being repeatedly reminded.

3. Edmure's actions can't be judged. He should have told him.

 

We can say easily that marrying Jeyne was a mistake, but promise to Freys weren't bad idea. Simply, he needed them at that moment...

 

Robb can't blame his family for his failure. He can blame traitors, but his bannermen are showing exceptional respect and loyalty towards him and his cause. Even now when he is dead and his House destroyed...



#4 Game Of Thrones

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:47 PM

Theon is far more screwed than Robb.

#5 Robb_Warged

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:55 PM

1. His mother didn't betray him.

2. Theon isn't his brother, which he was being repeatedly reminded.

3. Edmure's actions can't be judged. He should have told him.

 

We can say easily that marrying Jeyne was a mistake, but promise to Freys weren't bad idea. Simply, he needed them at that moment...

 

Robb can't blame his family for his failure. He can blame traitors, but his bannermen are showing exceptional respect and loyalty towards him and his cause. Even now when he is dead and his House destroyed...

She gave up his BIGGEST edge he had on the Lannisters without consulting him.  That is betrayal


Edited by Robb_Warged, 02 August 2014 - 02:04 PM.


#6 Mladen

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:00 PM

She gave up his BIGGEST edge he had on the Lannister's without consulting him.  That is betrayal

 

What did that change? Cat wanted her daughters back, the daughters who after Bran and Rickon's death became the heiresses, something Lannisters were very much aware of. She acted as any mother would... At least her mistake, unlike his, costed no one their lives.



#7 LaVeysProphet

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:01 PM

Viserys. All he wanted was his throne!



#8 Ser Eric

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:02 PM

Catelyn betrayed Robb, that's quite blatantly obvious. She had absolutely no right to set Jaime free.



#9 Robb_Warged

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:02 PM

I don't care who you are.  Tywin, Dany, any and all of them would have met death if what they had to work with were the inept and turncoat sort of folk Robb had to work with

 

What did that change? Cat wanted her daughters back, the daughters who after Bran and Rickon's death became the heiresses, something Lannisters were very much aware of. She acted as any mother would... At least her mistake, unlike his, costed no one their lives.

What did that change?  Are you seriously asking what giving up a hostage Jaime Lannister from the Stark's forces over back to the Lannister family changed?  While the Lannisters are at war with the Starks?

 

 

 

Catelyn betrayed Robb, that's quite blatantly obvious. She had absolutely no right to set Jaime free.

Exactly.  The book harps on it being a betrayal quite a bit.  It's why she was a prisoner in her own father's castle in the beginning of ASOS

 

 

Why couldnt Robb have come back as a Lady Stoneheart sort of character?


Edited by Robb_Warged, 02 August 2014 - 02:06 PM.


#10 Mladen

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:10 PM

I don't care who you are.  Tywin, Dany, any and all of them would have met death if what they had to work with were the inept and turncoat sort of folk Robb had to work with

 

You mean such intelligent folk like Cersei, Pycelle, Barristan or Jorah, or those who wanted to destroy you like Varys, LF, Illyrio, Green Grace?

 

 

What did that change?  Are you seriously asking what giving up a hostage Jaime Lannister from the Stark's forces over back to the Lannister family changed?  While the Lannisters are at war with the Starks?

 

Yeah, I am seriously asking what in the story had that release changed in terms of Robb's fate?

 

 

Why couldnt Robb have come back as a Lady Stoneheart sort of character?

 

Look at your avatar photo and tell me what he misses? ;)



#11 Robb_Warged

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:13 PM

 

You mean such intelligent folk like Cersei, Pycelle, Barristan or Jorah, or those who wanted to destroy you like Varys, LF, Illyrio, Green Grace?

 

 

 

Yeah, I am seriously asking what in the story had that release changed in terms of Robb's fate?

 

 

 

Look at your avatar photo and tell me what he misses? ;)

Tywin never would have orchestrated the red wedding with Jaime in the hands of Robb.  I can't believe you truly feel that giving up Jaime was no big loss for Robb and the Stark forces.  I'll be sure to ignore your uneducated posts from now on



#12 Hangover of the Morning

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:18 PM

I think the KL's whores beg to disagree with you. 



#13 Mladen

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:22 PM

Tywin never would have orchestrated the red wedding with Jaime in the hands of Robb.  I can't believe you truly feel that giving up Jaime was no big loss for Robb and the Stark forces.  I'll be sure to ignore your uneducated posts from now on

 

Thank you so much... Speaking about uneducated posts, perhaps you would like to check some facts about RW, like:

 

1. After battle of Whispering Woods, Tywin completely gave up on Jaime. He basically considered him dead.

2. Tywin was never a man to be frightened by hostages. Aerys didn't do it with that same Jaime during RR, then we have Lady Tarbeck, Defiance of Duskendale... Tywin simply wasn't someone who could be made into doing something he didn't want by hostages.

3. Timeline doesn't fit. After Battle of Blackwater and even before Theon taking Winterfell, Boltons and Freys were organizing a treason. Basically, Bolton said it to Jaime in Harrenhal. The arrangements were made on Roose/Fat Walda wedding, which happened before Jaime's release. Not to mention that what Ramsay did happened before Jaime's release and that Arya learned the snippets of betrayal while she was in Harrenhal when that Frey boy told her he won't be getting a Princess (which btw was Arya)

 

So, you can ignore my posts as much as you want, that won't change the simple fact that Cat's release of Jaime, never actually played a significant role in RW. RW was organized before her release of Jaime.


Edited by Mladen, 02 August 2014 - 02:22 PM.


#14 thelittledragonthatcould

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:29 PM

Surely Bobby B was more screwed over, his parents die when he is a child, the woman he is betrothed to runs off with another guy and the woman he does marry cuckolds him while his one younger brother whines about only being the Lord of Dragonstone and the Master of Ships and his even younger brother is planning a coup against Roberts children(before he knows that they are bastards).



#15 FaceGardener

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:36 PM

Robb's great flaw was using Northern logic while fighting in the South. He valued honor which, in a cold place where everybody must band together to survive, is a very good idea. But there are plenty of resources in the South, which means that subterfuge is a good idea. He was laid low by his incomplete understanding of court logic, and so Tywin won the war of espionage. Don't forget that Jeyne Westerling was planted by Tywin. 

 

Robb is certainly not stupid; he's a brilliant commander, a just leader, and a king who cares deeply for the people he ruled. But he was a teenager fighting in unfamiliar territory against a much richer and more experienced foe, on that foe's turf. I'm not saying Tywin's victory was inevitable, but it was likely. And Robb knew that going in, but he's a brave Northerner loyal to his family and held out quite well under the circumstances.



#16 Mladen

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:40 PM

Robb's great flaw was using Northern logic while fighting in the South. He valued honor which, in a cold place where everybody must band together to survive, is a very good idea. But there are plenty of resources in the South, which means that subterfuge is a good idea. He was laid low by his incomplete understanding of court logic, and so Tywin won the war of espionage. Don't forget that Jeyne Westerling was planted by Tywin. 

 

It's not either Northern logic nor Northern honor (whatever this may be). This was Ned's logic and Ned's honor which Robb emulated. Also, Jeyne Westerling wasn't planted by Tywin. We even hear how she loves him and how she fought for the crown Robb gave her... The traitors in Westerling family, the Tywin's agents were Jeyne's mother and uncle, not her.



#17 WMarshal

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:43 PM

Viserys easy, the entire world said fuck him and he ended with having boiled gold getting poured on his head.



#18 Unbent_Unbroken

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:59 PM

Elia Martell. Robb had at least some hand in his destiny. Elia did not.



#19 DamoDega

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 02:59 PM

Tyrion

 

-Dad doesn't care he saved the kingdom and theyr lives, hate him and want him dead

 

-Brother like him, but he's too focused banging theyr sister to stay openly on his side

Ideal Champion for him twice, but first time he's too far, second has been crippled

 

-Sister doesn't care he saved the kingdom and theyr lives, hate him and want him dead

 

-Nephew try to have him killed, while he's trying to save his nephew kingdom

 

-His substitute Champion swordman refuse to champion

 

-His whore girlfriend end up it was a whore. Betray him at the process, bang his father

 

-His substitute substitute Champion swordman accept to champion him. Almost win. Almost.

 

 

 

Beat that :D



#20 HelenaAndTheMachine

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:00 PM

 

It's not either Northern logic nor Northern honor (whatever this may be). This was Ned's logic and Ned's honor which Robb emulated. Also, Jeyne Westerling wasn't planted by Tywin. We even hear how she loves him and how she fought for the crown Robb gave her... The traitors in Westerling family, the Tywin's agents were Jeyne's mother and uncle, not her.

Precisely. The North is no different from the South, made up of people who are ambitious, treacherous, good, bad, smart, incompetent. There is no "Northern honour".

 

1) His mom betrays him 2) his brother (Theon) betrays him 3)his family (Uncle Edmure for example) lets him down, 4) his bannermen didn't show enough respect for his judgment (Lord Karstark), and  5)he had a complete Judas Iscariot in his midst (Roose)

 

 

 

1) It may have been treason, as Catelyn herself admits, but Robb forgives her, there is evidence that the Red Wedding was already being planned before this happened, and Robb is also at fault for bedding and wedding Jeyne and breaking the Frey betrothal. Robb has his share of responsibility too.

2) Theon is not his brother. Though he does betray him, yes, since he went to the Iron Islands with the purpose of gaining Balon as an ally. But remind me, didn't someone warn him against doing that? I believe that would be Catelyn

3) Edmure can't be blamed for this, since Robb didn't tell him. Its unreasonable to expect Edmure to completely ignore the huge Lannister army marching extremely close to Riverrun. Was he just supposed to sit tight, twiddle his thumbs and hope nothing bad would happen? Simple fact is, Robb should have told him.

4) Lord Karstark is one bannerman. The rest of Robb's bannermen, barring Roose, showed him above and beyond the respect many others get.

5) And? He is hardly the only person in the series with a traitor serving them. Dany has an abundance in Meereen, and she had Jorah before that, Tyrion had and abundance of them in King's Landing - Littlefinger, Varys, Pycelle, take your pick. Stannis had Aleseter Florent wanting to sell Shireen to the Lannisters. Why is Robb any different to them?