Did anyone in the series get screwed over more than Robb Stark?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

couldnt agree more...karstarks would likely still be on robbs side...roose would have rethought his position, it has been argued that roose intended betrayal the whole time, but i have always viewed his actions as opportunistic because of robbs weak position. if the karstarks would not have left robb, robb might have been able to avoid begging the freys for help

The Karstarks with Roose could still have been loyal to Robb had he chosen not to execute their Lords. Edmure and Cat counseled him against this rash action when keeping him prisoner would have prevented them siding with the Boltons at the Red Wedding.

[of man and wolf]

Did Roose ever admit to knowing that Ramsay was going to do what he did at Winterfell? Or when he found out, it was just another reason for him to pursue his betrayal of Robb?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

If Robb gets killed war against north is over, so he was for sure going. Why would Cat live? Who would Tywin contact to ransom her for? Track down black fish, Lysa? There isnt any benefit the Lannisters would have by letting any Starks staying around (other then Sansa)

Tywin would exchange Cat for Jaime at Riverrun. That's rather obvious. Remember, Cat's not actually a Stark by birth, but by marriage. She's a Tully by birth, therefore the Riverrun connection.

Then explain us why Ramsay, son of Roose, sacked WF long before Jaime's release, why basically Bolton and Frey organized entire thing at the wedding Roose/Fat Walda which happened before Jaime's release. Why was the original plan to keep Cat alive to swap her for Jaime? Basically, explain us how all these things happened BEFORE Jaime's release and how you can say that RW was a direct consequence of Jaime's release when all plans were made BEFORE it actually happened?

I don't understand what's so hard to get. RW was planned BEFORE CAT RELEASED JAIME, PEOPLE. BEFORE. So, Jaime's release wasn't responsible for any of it.

[Erkan12]

Then explain us why Ramsay, son of Roose, sacked WF long before Jaime's release, why basically Bolton and Frey organized entire thing at the wedding Roose/Fat Walda which happened before Jaime's release. Why was the original plan to keep Cat alive to swap her for Jaime? Basically, explain us how all these things happened BEFORE Jaime's release and how you can say that RW was a direct consequence of Jaime's release when all plans were made BEFORE it actually happened?

As I said before, this part belong to Rodrik Cassel & Theon the reek. After the news of WF, Roose decided to make a move for it.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

Robb getting screwed over was his own doing.

[Mladen]

As I said before, this part belong to Rodrik Cassel & Theon the reek. After the news of WF, Roose decided to make a move for it.

And that happened as consequence of Jaime's release? No, it didn't.

Again, tell me what about the rest? Explain us how the timeline shows us that Cat is to be blamed for RW.

[Nittanian]

Then explain us why Ramsay, son of Roose, sacked WF long before Jaime's release, why basically Bolton and Frey organized entire thing at the wedding Roose/Fat Walda which happened before Jaime's release.

Catelyn releases Jaime in ACOK-55 (Catelyn-VII) and Ramsay sacks Winterfell in ACOK-66 (Theon VI).

While it is plausible that the Boltons and Freys plotted when Roose married Walda at the Twins, I don't believe it has been confirmed.

As thelittledragonthatcould pointed out, GRRM has said,

We know that Roose Bolton had already taken Walda Frey to wife before Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Does this then mean that Walder Frey had already planned to ally himself with Bolton to murder Robb before Robb's marriage betrayal, or was his anger towards Robb and his reasoning towards his own family as to why Robb had to be killed more than just a pretext, and the genuine reason for the Red Wedding?

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

As for Bolton, if you reread all his sections carefully, I think you will see a picture of a man keeping all his options open as long as he could... sniffing the wind, covering his tracks, ready to jump either way... even as late as his supper with Jaime at Harrenhal...

GRRM is directly stating that the savagery of the RW is because of the dishonor Walder felt was caused by Robb marrying Jeyne. The Freys react angrily at the Crag (ASOS-14, Catelyn II), at Riverrun (ASOS-14, Catelyn II), and at Harrenhal (ACOK-64, Arya X). This is well after Roose married Walda.

[Mladen]

Catelyn releases Jaime in ACOK-55 (Catelyn-VII) and Ramsay sacks Winterfell in ACOK-66 (Theon VI).

While it is plausible that the Boltons and Freys plotted when Roose married Walda at the Twins, I don't believe it has been confirmed.

As thelittledragonthatcould pointed out, GRRM has said,

GRRM is directly stating that the savagery of the RW is because of the dishonor Walder felt was caused by Robb marrying Jeyne. The Freys react angrily at the Crag (ASOS-14, Catelyn II), at Riverrun (ASOS-14, Catelyn II), and at Harrenhal (ACOK-64, Arya X). This is well after Roose married Walda.

Which again disproves that RW was consequence of Jaime's release...

[David Selig]

Excusing Robb's mistakes by blaming everyone else sure seems to be a favourite activity around here. ;)

I will give you marrying Jeyne and breaking his promise to the Frey's (a promise his mother made for him that he did not give approval to or know about at the time)

What? He was told about it immediately and was asked if he approved the deal right away.

[Nittanian]

Another SSM:

Many people feel that the Kingslayer had little to no value as a hostage while he was at Riverrun. I tend to disagree. My question is, if Cat had not freed the Kingslayer would the Red Wedding still have went ahead and if it did, would Ser Brynden still be in a good position having the Kingslayer as a bargaining tool?

"What if" questions are hard to answer. No one really knows.

Lord Tywin had not shown much tendency to be cowed by his enemies holding hostages... but Jaime was special.

[Batbob45]

Stannis

Get marry to the insuffable Selyse

Got marry to a Florent

Renly become Lord of Storm end

Parents died when he was young

He was the True heir of Robert and got denied being king

People spread nasty rumors about his family

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Stannis

Get marry to the insuffable Selyse

Got marry to a Florent

Renly become Lord of Storm end

Parents died when he was young

He was the True heir of Robert and got denied being king

People spread nasty rumors about his family

Stannis was a second son, he was entitled to nothing. His brother generously gave him Dragonstone and a seat on the Small Council and he got to marry into one of the most powerful families in the Realm.

He also got a priestess who has magically killed people for him and rich benefactors who have decided to give him even more money to waste on his war.

Stannis has been given plenty.

[Batbob45]

Jenny Poole - She was taken in by LF and was forced to marry Ramsey and suffer abuse so bad that being kidnap by White Walker is a better fate.

[JBlaze94]

I think Stannis has gotten pretty screwed over.

He served his brother well, and yet Renly gets Storm's End. He gets screwed out of being king. Robb attempted to take half of the kingdom that rightfully belongs to Stannis. Out of all the would be kings, he is most suited for it, but people don't like him.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think Stannis has gotten pretty screwed over.

He served his brother well, and yet Renly gets Storm's End. He gets screwed out of being king. Robb attempted to take half of the kingdom that rightfully belongs to Stannis. Out of all the would be kings, he is most suited for it, but people don't like him.

I think there's a far, far, far, abism-like far distance between being screw over as Stannis has been and screwed over as Robb, Catelyn, Elia, Ashara, Jeyne Poole, Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella, Pia have been. Stannis has had a pretty good life, Storm's End was Robert's and he could give to whoever he wanted. Compare that with all characters above and what they have endured.

[The Bedding]

Well, I guess that my "uneducated" post was actually corroborated with some text proofs...

Second,yeah, I don't see it as treason, but I understand where it comes from. As for losing Jaime being huge lost, as we have just concluded, Jaime's release didn't actually harm Starks.

Helping an imprisioned enemy escape against the King's wishes is treasonous. Just as Lord Karstark's act of killing the Lannister captives caused his execution, Lady Stark could have been rightfully executed as well.

[Eli Stark]

I think the KL's whores beg to disagree with you.

My answer would have been Lollys Stokeworth, though the KL whores would provide some stiff competition.

[Mladen]

Helping an imprisioned enemy escape against the King's wishes is treasonous. Just as Lord Karstark's act of killing the Lannister captives caused his execution, Lady Stark could have been rightfully executed as well.

And tell me, who would support Robb then? Like, if he is accursed kinslayer able to kill a woman who gave birth to him, which House would exactly follow him? To answer you, none. As we have seen, Catelyn got support by most of the lords. Umber, Blackfish, Mormont women, they were all on her side. No one even wanted to argue the possible punishment.

[The Bedding]

And tell me, who would support Robb then? Like, if he is accursed kinslayer able to kill a woman who gave birth to him, which House would exactly follow him? To answer you, none. As we have seen, Catelyn got support by most of the lords. Umber, Blackfish, Mormont women, they were all on her side. No one even wanted to argue the possible punishment.

The execution would have been rightful and just regardless. There would be widespread mayhem if family were always immune to justice by pulling the kinslaying card. Interesting. With such immunity for being his mom, Lady Stark could have just offed Jeyne Westerling right in front of Robb and gotten everything back on track and prevented quite a bit of messy events.

[Mladen]

The execution would have been rightful and just regardless. There would be widespread mayhem if family were always immune to justice by pulling the kinslaying card. Interesting. With such immunity for being his mom, Lady Stark could have just offed Jeyne Westerling right in front of Robb and gotten everything back on track and prevented quite a bit of messy events.

You have to be aware that kinslaying is considered among the worst crimes in Westerosi culture. Robb would have ended his reign because no lord would stand with him anymore. Because, as I said, they would be thinking that if he can do that to his mother, what he can do to us. Robb would be destroyed with that blow. And the fact that no lord had any objection, but Karstark. to Catelyn not being punished in any way speaks about how they felt... She got the support from them... In no way, killing a mother would be just. Not in Westeros, anyway.