HosteenOsteen Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 GRRM has said Varys and Melisandre are the two characters most underrated by readers. In terms of our conversation here, our estimation of both does not seem to be too high-Varys is seen as an unreliable schemer who lies to a man about to die in proclaiming the superiority of (f)Aegon, and even with all the Stannis fans on here, that love does not seem to extend to the Red Woman. So what is so great about either. both of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I love Varys. I hate Mel. We know Varys had a hard life, but has been working for decades towards a certain goal that is yet to be revealed (or, it has been revealed, as Aegon). He did it tirelessly and for the most part flawlessly, retaining the trust of Kings and Queens and peasants alike, all over Westeros and Essos. Sure he's sneaky and manipulative, but he's never lied to himself. He's got the plan all worked out. Mel lies to herself constantly. She's delusional and wishy washy. She may have talents but she's a bore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 He probably sees their endgame. You know, being the author and all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolkiennerd Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I like Mel better than Varys actually. In fact, I think it might be a possibility that she knows Stannis isn't Azor Ahai, but she tells him that anyway to increase her own power while searching for the real one. Also she has cool powers, whereas Varys, while being cool, is just too contradictory for me to begin to understand. I like him best under the theory that he's working with the FM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Oh, I dislike both of them, but they are both highly manipulative people who have managed to bring a legitimate claimant to the throne (with an army) to bear. In terms of there ability to play "the game", they are both powerful contenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Didn't he say they were the most misunderstood, not the most underrated?I can see that in Mel, since I think she's genuinely trying to do some good, albeit with questionable methods.But Varys is a dick (without a dick), whichever way you spin it. I used to think he really cared about the realm, but he just wanted to put his golden boy on the throne. Although, maybe that's what Martin meant when he said he was misunderstood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Regarding Mel, I imagine his comments relate to fans who uncritically accept Cressen's view of her, that she's evil/sinister. From her POV chapter, it's clear that she is, in fact, trying to save the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Mel is Gandalf. (Backs the rightful king, knows ancient prophecy, wants to save world, is superpowerful, etc.) GRRM’s trick was to introduce Mel in a way that would correspond to writing LOTR from the perspective of Denethor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxian Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Varys is one of my favorite characters in the series, but I know that a lot of it has to do with his portrayal in GoT which seems to be more favorable than in ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horizon Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Yeah, like maesters are good and trustworthy. :)To me both are interesting characters. And I believe that Varys did not lie to Kevan. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesW Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 They are 2 very important characters. One is part of a dynastic conspiracy from the time of Robert's rebellion, if the final revelations from the last book is true. The other is the driving force behind Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 He probably sees their endgame. You know, being the author and all This. :agree: Also I am not a fan of the 'Varys lied to Kevin' theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Mel is Gandalf. (Backs the rightful king, knows ancient prophecy, wants to save world, is superpowerful, etc.) GRRMs trick was to introduce Mel in a way that would correspond to writing LOTR from the perspective of Denethor.That is quite an interesting way to look at it :).Like it.I like Mel, not her fanatism but I believe her that she genuinely carries for the "children of Westeros" ;).I have been defending her for over 10 years.Varys on the other hand...well I have no finished opinion on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I didn't like Mel, but after getting to her POV chapter I started to find her more interesting. Varys has always been an intriguing character to me. For some odd reason, I feel that in the end it's going to turn out that he truly is working for the "realm", just in his own way. He does have Aegon trained in such a way that he will be sympathetic to different classes and would seem to be a good candidate to turn into a strong leader. Maybe after seeing the Mad King and the drunken Robert he decided that he could take matters into his own hands and created a qualified leader? ...Or he could just be straight up wicked and in on everything for nothing but selfish reasons. Who knows! :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OllyS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Didn't he say they were the most misunderstood, not the most underrated?I can see that in Mel, since I think she's genuinely trying to do some good, albeit with questionable methods.But Varys is a dick (without a dick), whichever way you spin it. I used to think he really cared about the realm, but he just wanted to put his golden boy on the throne. Although, maybe that's what Martin meant when he said he was misunderstood... :leer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruthven Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Mel is Gandalf. (Backs the rightful king, knows ancient prophecy, wants to save world, is superpowerful, etc.) GRRM’s trick was to introduce Mel in a way that would correspond to writing LOTR from the perspective of Denethor.For that comment, I would like to award you Much Gold.Notwithstanding the faulty premise of this thread, I like Mel; she has real powers and she is trying to save the world. She's just wrongVarys... Conleth Hill's performance, and the earnestness in his eyes... Again, I think Varys believes that he's working to save the world. But whereas Mel sees the death she causes as justified due to her faith in R'hollor, Varys has sown chaos and caused the death of people that he knows don't deserve to die. I find him very unsympathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HosteenOsteen Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Mel is Gandalf. (Backs the rightful king, knows ancient prophecy, wants to save world, is superpowerful, etc.) GRRM’s trick was to introduce Mel in a way that would correspond to writing LOTR from the perspective of Denethor. Love this comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Beecher Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Call me weird, but I like ALL the characters. There are no POVs where I think "Ugh, not a _____ chapter!" Obviously there are some I like more than others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Mel is Gandalf. (Backs the rightful king, knows ancient prophecy, wants to save world, is superpowerful, etc.) GRRM’s trick was to introduce Mel in a way that would correspond to writing LOTR from the perspective of Denethor. Rightful King on paper.. at the moment... if Cersei's kids are declared bastards... discounting Dany and Jon and Aegon (she obviously missed the message on them). No Gandalf points for that one. Knows ancient prophecies? Which ones other than Azor Ahai? The same prophecy a lot of other people know. No Gandalf points. Is superpowerful? Not more so than Thoros who can reanimate the dead, or Bran who can warg a human, or Dany who can birth Dragons. No Gandalf points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondo has three heads Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Where is the quote, what does he mean by underrated? In terms of being fan favorites, or appreciating how important they are to the story? Not often do people figure Varys or Mel into their scenarios when they are guessing at the IT come end of ADOS.Maybe he is saying that there is a good chance Vary's or Mel succeed in his/her end game, basically outlasting the likes of Cersei, Dany, Tyrion,etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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