What does GRRM see in Varys and Melisandre that we don't?

[Wavey Sauce]

Melisandre he said is the most misunderstood, never recall hearing or seeing the words "underrated"

I like both of them. (Mel mainly because Stannis is my favorite). And they are both very powerful, can manipulate but also have real world power to accomplish what they want.

Varys is just a grinder, hate him or love him cant deny how smart he is and how he has went about everything that we have seen of him. He is always 1 step ahead of everyone else and can manipulate or shift whatever he needs to, to get whatever set result is. I believe in the him being a blackfyre and all that as well

[Wavey Sauce]

Its implied in his conversation with Illyrio. Books not handy, paraphrasing here:

"old enough to know their letters...if they could keep their tongues...the risk..."

I think he may only purchase or bring in children who have lost their tongue, I def dont think he does it himself or has his network kidnap kids and have them do it. Also assume not all his spies have no tongue, just a fraction that he brought in himself after the deed was done. Across the narrow sea all kinds of body castrations seem to be fairly common, Unsullied to all the different kinds of blood magic etc. Way more of a normal and common practice then in Westeros

[Tolkiennerd]

We've read her POV. She thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai.

Like I told Stannis in an above post, when she was thinking, did she ever clearly state that she firmly believed Stannis to be Azor Ahai? I remember she was looking a lot for "the king" and "your instrument" but never Stannis (And for that case, neither Azor Ahai). Maybe I'm forgetting a passage there. I'm on a trip and don't have the books with me, but I'm pretty sure she never clearly referred to Stannis as AA.

[Chebyshov]

Like I told Stannis in an above post, when she was thinking, did she ever clearly state that she firmly believed Stannis to be Azor Ahai? I remember she was looking a lot for "the king" and "your instrument" but never Stannis (And for that case, neither Azor Ahai). Maybe I'm forgetting a passage there. I'm on a trip and don't have the books with me, but I'm pretty sure she never clearly referred to Stannis as AA.

Nah, she mentions Stannis specifically:

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

[Tolkiennerd]

All right well there goes that theory. Thanks though

[Chebyshov]

All right well there goes that theory. Thanks though

Yeah it's a bummer. If Mel didn't think Stannis was AA, I'd like her a lot more :P .

I like Varys though. He's a means-to-an-end kind of guy, but his background is fascinating, and I love his quotes. "Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"

[Tolkiennerd]

Yeah it's a bummer. If Mel didn't think Stannis was AA, I'd like her a lot more :P .

I like Varys though. He's a means-to-an-end kind of guy, but his background is fascinating, and I love his quotes. "Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"

But magic! MAGIC! Ah, I love cool quotes too... BUT MAGIC!!!

[Dragon88]

Yeah it's a bummer. If Mel didn't think Stannis was AA, I'd like her a lot more :P .

I like Varys though. He's a means-to-an-end kind of guy, but his background is fascinating, and I love his quotes. "Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"

You see quotes like that makes me feel like Varys is not a douche like little finger. I actually see him having morals and fighting for the realm. Now whether you like his methods or not that is a different story. And remember something, Westeros had bad rulers since Aerys. Actually Aerys might of been better then people like Robert, Joffrey and Cersei. Tommen is no ruler, Cersei basically rules. And to Varys all the rulers of Westeros are bad. I could see why he would kill Kevin. He sees that as making Westeros slightly better then now but ultimately still bad. And for the start of the war, more then him it was LF that started it. Either way its hard to read his plans but one thing for certain, he doesn't do it for personal gain which I like about him unlike LF or Pycelle.

[lareine]

With regards to the OP, it really is interesting to think about. Ever since I read the quote from GRRM, it's made me look more skeptically at how Varys and Melisandre appear on the surface and how they are regarded by the other characters.

It's interesting that many people in this thread have mentioned that they began to like Melisandre more after her POV chapter in ADWD, which makes sense. It allows the reader access to Mel's personal thoughts and history and allows us to see the world from her perspective, which would naturally make us more sympathetic to her.

So I think it's worth noting that we haven't had a POV from Varys and we really can't be entirely sure what his true history and motives are at this point. Yes, on the surface so far they seem sinister and he's definitely engaged in deceitful and destructive behavior, just like Mel has. However, we may ultimately find out that like Mel, Varys truly does believe that his actions are in service to a greater good, even if they are destructive.

That's just my hunch though, I very well could be wrong :)

[Light a wight tonight]

Yeah it's a bummer. If Mel didn't think Stannis was AA, I'd like her a lot more :P .

I like Varys though. He's a means-to-an-end kind of guy, but his background is fascinating, and I love his quotes. "Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"

Varys is such a BSer. His specialty is telling half truths, and the saying is that a half truth is a whole lie. He condemns "you high lords" for playing the game of thrones while doing the same thing himself with Aegon as his chessman. Or Cyvasse piece.

[Faint]

Hard to respond here because I am not sure what is being suggested by the opening post. From what I gather, Martin feels that Melisandre and Varys are misunderstood by most readers, whereas the topic of the thread seems to be saying that readers do not appreciate how powerful and influential they are in comparison to how Martin intended them to be seen.

Frankly, I do not think Martin ever said anything of the sort, but even if he did, it certainly would not apply to Varys. Most posters I read here regard him as positively supernatural and omnipresent, despite the litany of evidence that he is not quite so clever as many would have him being.

I will say that I think Melisandre's contributions to Stannis' success -- and the Night's Watch's survival -- are very rarely properly acknowledged. Nor are her feats of magic talked about with the awe they deserve. And when it comes to misunderstood characters, she very deservedly heads the list. That is no surprise though. She has spent most of the series being exclusively seen via the point-of-views of Cressen, Davos and Jon Snow, very likeable characters who also happen to be predisposed against her and irrationally biased in their views of her motivations.

As it turns out, in the type of twist that Martin loves, they are completely wrong about her, which is amply demonstrated in her own point-of-view chapter. That said, it has seemingly come far too late in the story for it to change the minds of most readers, who were far too enamored of their favorite characters to examine their views critically and are now too stubborn to realize that they were wrong. As such, I still see many readers convinced that Melisandre is inherently evil, always to be viewed in the worst light, and tying themselves in knots attempting to make cogent arguments that disregard the empirical evidence to the contrary, which inevitably fall apart under the barest scrutiny.

[Mithras]

With regards to the OP, it really is interesting to think about. Ever since I read the quote from GRRM, it's made me look more skeptically at how Varys and Melisandre appear on the surface and how they are regarded by the other characters.

It's interesting that many people in this thread have mentioned that they began to like Melisandre more after her POV chapter in ADWD, which makes sense. It allows the reader access to Mel's personal thoughts and history and allows us to see the world from her perspective, which would naturally make us more sympathetic to her.

So I think it's worth noting that we haven't had a POV from Varys and we really can't be entirely sure what his true history and motives are at this point. Yes, on the surface so far they seem sinister and he's definitely engaged in deceitful and destructive behavior, just like Mel has. However, we may ultimately find out that like Mel, Varys truly does believe that his actions are in service to a greater good, even if they are destructive.

That's just my hunch though, I very well could be wrong :)

If Varys is the legitimate son of the infant son of Aerion who was passed over by the Great Council of 233, then he should have the best claim to the IT by blood, which gives him a somewhat legitimate reason to destroy Egg's line.

[bent branch]

These are the things we are told about Varys. We are told he was born a slave in Lys and that at a young age he was apprenticed to group of mummers. When he was young (I estimate about 10, since he was still pre-pubescent and yet old enough to survive) he was sold to a man who cut off his man bits to feed to a fire. When his man bits were burning he heard a voice in the fire. Although he was then abandoned to die, Varys was determined to live. He did whatever he had to to survive. Some years after this, when he was still fairly young, he partnered up with Illyrio. His and Illyrio's criminal activities made them both exceedingly wealthy. This great wealth allowed Illyrio to become "respectable". Varys, being a eunuch was condemned to a life in the shadows. At a certain point, Varys came to King's Landing and began his career as the Master of Whisperers. He lives in three windowless rooms and sleeps on a stone slab. He told Tyrion that he still dreams of that voice from the fire.

While many people reject this story almost completely as lies, I think much of this story is true. I think Varys is trying to silence the voice. How does a brilliant, wealthy, alienated, and traumatized man silence that voice. I think Varys is working towards seeing the AA/PTWP/3HotD prophecies brought to fruition. I think way too many people ignore the voice when trying to figure out Varys' motivations. I think this is why GRRM says that Varys along with Melisandre are the most misunderstood characters.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Hard to respond here because I am not sure what is being suggested by the opening post. From what I gather, Martin feels that Melisandre and Varys are misunderstood by most readers, whereas the topic of the thread seems to be saying that readers do not appreciate how powerful and influential they are in comparison to how Martin intended them to be seen.

Frankly, I do not think Martin ever said anything of the sort, but even if he did, it certainly would not apply to Varys. Most posters I read here regard him as positively supernatural and omnipresent, despite the litany of evidence that he is not quite so clever as many would have him being.

I will say that I think Melisandre's contributions to Stannis' success -- and the Night's Watch's survival -- are very rarely properly acknowledged. Nor are her feats of magic talked about with the awe they deserve. And when it comes to misunderstood characters, she very deservedly heads the list. That is no surprise though. She has spent most of the series being exclusively seen via the point-of-views of Cressen, Davos and Jon Snow, very likeable characters who also happen to be predisposed against her and irrationally biased in their views of her motivations.

As it turns out, in the type of twist that Martin loves, they are completely wrong about her, which is amply demonstrated in her own point-of-view chapter. That said, it has seemingly come far too late in the story for it to change the minds of most readers, who were far too enamored of their favorite characters to examine their views critically and are now too stubborn to realize that they were wrong. As such, I still see many readers convinced that Melisandre is inherently evil, always to be viewed in the worst light, and tying themselves in knots attempting to make cogent arguments that disregard the empirical evidence to the contrary, which inevitably fall apart under the barest scrutiny.

You're right... what GRRM actually said about Mel is that she's "misunderstood" in the same interview he added Varys to that list. And I agree that Mel's contributions are underrated. As you correctlynote-- we see her through the eyes of biased characters until her PoV in Dance, which is where we really begin to get a sense that she's not as black and white as she's been portrayed. As with all of GRRM's PoVs it's a near certainty that the future will reveal more shades of grey and inspire greater sympathy and understanding from the reader :)

[Larry of the Lawn]

Mel's a nice change because she's not some highborn getting all angsty about her lot in life. She's one of the few peasant-born pov's. Pretty sure the only others are Davos and the ever-boring Hotah.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

You're right... what GRRM actually said about Mel is that she's "misunderstood" in the same interview he added Varys to that list. And I agree that Mel's contributions are underrated. As you correctlynote-- we see her through the eyes of biased characters until her PoV in Dance, which is where we really begin to get a sense that she's not as black and white as she's been portrayed. As with all of GRRM's PoVs it's a near certainty that the future will reveal more shades of grey and inspire greater sympathy and understanding from the reader :)

And many thanks to you and @yolkboy for

RADIO WESTEROS Episode 03: Melisandre - A Red, Red Star

which was again wonderfully made and good listening!

And so very on topic here.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Mel's a nice change because she's not some highborn getting all angsty about her lot in life. She's one of the few peasant-born pov's. Pretty sure the only others are Davos and the ever-boring Hotah.

Hmm, bastard-highestborn but fallen down low into slavery we assume.

Still for the "lot in life", ist was

"Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven."

in her own POV in ADwD 31 Melisandre.

[Tywin Lannister's bastard]

I used to think Varys was a good guy and that he realized that the king really didn't matter that much ("power reside where men believe it resides"). But the whole business with Aegon confirms that Varys is just another player who above all else desire power. He doesn't give a shit about the realm. He is willing to make the Seven Kingdoms bleed even more just to put his guy on the Iron Throne, all because he will be a "good king". I don't buy it.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Hmm, bastard-highestborn but fallen down low into slavery we assume.

Still for the "lot in life", ist was

in her own POV in ADwD 31 Melisandre.

What do you mean by bastard-highest born? Is this a Shiera Seastar reference?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

What do you mean by bastard-highest born? Is this a Shiera Seastar reference?

Was meant to be: If she is the daughter of two bastards of the king.

That would neither make her nobility, nor lowborn either.