Lord Varys Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Some things may be wrong interpretations. For instance, the use of 'prince' in 'promised prince' most likely slipped in during the translation, if we assume that the promised prince prophecy was only recovered from some ancient scrolls by King Aerys I. We now know that there were 'sorcerer princes' in Valyria, but 'the promised prince' in the Targaryen interpretation clearly refers to a scion of their royal house, which may not indeed be what the Valyrian prophet said. [but then, we don't even know if the prophecy Rhaegar read was of Valyrian origin. That's very likely - I'd like to think that it was one of the prophecies of Daenys the Dreamer, but we don't really know that yet.] In that sense, the gender of the savior figure must not actually be stated in the original Valyrian prophecy document. Aemon seems to have read it, since he connects the prophecy with Barth's opinion on dragon-mating habits, perhaps indicating that the original text - perhaps written by Daenys? - spoke of 'and in distant days a dragonlord will be born from our line, saving the world' etc. In those days the Targaryens would most likely have considered the customs of barbaric Westeros - which Aegon and his sisters later adopted - as foreign and strange. That would certainly show itself in the translation. Some prophecies in the books are figurative, some literal. In fact, all of Maggy's prophecies seem to be pretty straightforward, as are all the visions Dany sees in the House of the Undying - the prophecies the Undying make are somewhat murkier, but the whole stuff about 'the Slayer of Lies' also is pretty clear - its figurative speech, but still pretty clear what Dany is supposed to do. Events like the waking of dragons from stone could be re-imagined as revealing a hidden dragon or something like that (as it did happen in TMK with Egg), but I really don't see how the waking of literal dragons from literal stone eggs should not be the thing meant by the original prophecy. If GRRM came now up with a way to give that prophetic aspect a non-magical or non-literal meaning, he would retrospectively invalidate the hatching of the dragon eggs. And even if he did it: Who the hell will be the in-universe authority proclaiming without a doubt that Jon is the promised prince if there are two candidates - one meeting a series of literal prophecy-fulfillings, and the other a series of figurative fulfillings. Even in-universe it would come down to a matter of belief. As to Jon embodying 'ice and fire': He looks much more like ice to me, and despite the fact that he he is descended from Rhaegar, he seems to have inherited nothing from his sire. Neither the looks, nor the character traits Rhaegar was known for. Jon embodies the 'iciness' of the Starks not sharing the wolf's blood - and all that could have come to him through Lyanna, despite the fact that she had it. That is actually reaffirmed by the fact that he is also named 'Snow' - a name not exactly connected to fire. The other major candidate for a hidden dragon, Tyrion, has much more overt Targaryen (bastard) qualities - he is a monstrosity, has locks of pale, white hair, mismatched eyes, and dragon dreams. But there is a strange symmetry between Tyrion and Jon - one the Targaryen bastard raised as the trueborn son of Lord Tywin, the other (most likely) born in wedlock but raised as a bastard - a symmetry on could expect between two of the dragon heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 As to Jon embodying 'ice and fire': He looks much more like ice to me, and despite the fact that he he is descended from Rhaegar, he seems to have inherited nothing from his sire. Neither the looks, nor the character traits Rhaegar was known for. Jon embodies the 'iciness' of the Starks not sharing the wolf's blood - and all that could have come to him through Lyanna, despite the fact that she had it. That is actually reaffirmed by the fact that he is also named 'Snow' - a name not exactly connected to fire. The other major candidate for a hidden dragon, Tyrion, has much more overt Targaryen (bastard) qualities - he is a monstrosity, has locks of pale, white hair, mismatched eyes, and dragon dreams. But there is a strange symmetry between Tyrion and Jon - one the Targaryen bastard raised as the trueborn son of Lord Tywin, the other (most likely) born in wedlock but raised as a bastard - a symmetry on could expect between two of the dragon heads. So you don't think Jon is "able, capable, and determined?" Not even in book 5? Looks: Yeah, he can't look like Rhaeagr. It's that simple. But for what it's worth: he has Rhaegar's nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Some things may be wrong interpretations. For instance, the use of 'prince' in 'promised prince' most likely slipped in during the translation, if we assume that the promised prince prophecy was only recovered from some ancient scrolls by King Aerys I. We now know that there were 'sorcerer princes' in Valyria, but 'the promised prince' in the Targaryen interpretation clearly refers to a scion of their royal house, which may not indeed be what the Valyrian prophet said. [but then, we don't even know if the prophecy Rhaegar read was of Valyrian origin. That's very likely - I'd like to think that it was one of the prophecies of Daenys the Dreamer, but we don't really know that yet.] In that sense, the gender of the savior figure must not actually be stated in the original Valyrian prophecy document. Aemon seems to have read it, since he connects the prophecy with Barth's opinion on dragon-mating habits, perhaps indicating that the original text - perhaps written by Daenys? - spoke of 'and in distant days a dragonlord will be born from our line, saving the world' etc. In those days the Targaryens would most likely have considered the customs of barbaric Westeros - which Aegon and his sisters later adopted - as foreign and strange. That would certainly show itself in the translation. Some prophecies in the books are figurative, some literal. In fact, all of Maggy's prophecies seem to be pretty straightforward, as are all the visions Dany sees in the House of the Undying - the prophecies the Undying make are somewhat murkier, but the whole stuff about 'the Slayer of Lies' also is pretty clear - its figurative speech, but still pretty clear what Dany is supposed to do. Events like the waking of dragons from stone could be re-imagined as revealing a hidden dragon or something like that (as it did happen in TMK with Egg), but I really don't see how the waking of literal dragons from literal stone eggs should not be the thing meant by the original prophecy. If GRRM came now up with a way to give that prophetic aspect a non-magical or non-literal meaning, he would retrospectively invalidate the hatching of the dragon eggs. And even if he did it: Who the hell will be the in-universe authority proclaiming without a doubt that Jon is the promised prince if there are two candidates - one meeting a series of literal prophecy-fulfillings, and the other a series of figurative fulfillings. Even in-universe it would come down to a matter of belief. This is where Schmendrick's R+L=LB theory makes a lot of sense. The word Nissa literally means moon in one of the Native American languages. So, Nissa Nissa reads as Moon Moon, which recalls Doreah's tale to Dany: "Once there were two moons in the sky," etc. - AGoT, Daenerys III. These two moons are Lyanna and Dany. Lyanna literally gave birth to a figurative dragon. While Dany figuratively gave birth to literal dragons. There are lots of stone associations with the Starks. Alayne Stone, Lady Stoneheart, Bran in the stone cave, Arya in Braavos hiding Needle under a stone, Rickon in Skaagos and lastly, the crypts beneath Winterfell that contain the statues of dead Stark lords. Also, as I believe Fire Eater pointed out in another thread, these Stark + stone connections all involve 'hiding'. So, maybe waking a hidden dragon from a Stark identity. So, I don't think it has to be one or the other. It could be both. Perhaps Dany is AAr, and Jon is the PtwP. After all, is it really clear that they are the same figure? I don't know. Maybe you have some inside info on that one. ;) As to Jon embodying 'ice and fire': He looks much more like ice to me, and despite the fact that he he is descended from Rhaegar, he seems to have inherited nothing from his sire. Neither the looks, nor the character traits Rhaegar was known for. Jon embodies the 'iciness' of the Starks not sharing the wolf's blood - and all that could have come to him through Lyanna, despite the fact that she had it. That is actually reaffirmed by the fact that he is also named 'Snow' - a name not exactly connected to fire. The other major candidate for a hidden dragon, Tyrion, has much more overt Targaryen (bastard) qualities - he is a monstrosity, has locks of pale, white hair, mismatched eyes, and dragon dreams. But there is a strange symmetry between Tyrion and Jon - one the Targaryen bastard raised as the trueborn son of Lord Tywin, the other (most likely) born in wedlock but raised as a bastard - a symmetry on could expect between two of the dragon heads. Maybe not his looks, but his sullenness brings to mind Rhaegar's melancholy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Some prophecies in the books are figurative, some literal. In fact, all of Maggy's prophecies seem to be pretty straightforward, as are all the visions Dany sees in the House of the Undying - the prophecies the Undying make are somewhat murkier, but the whole stuff about 'the Slayer of Lies' also is pretty clear - its figurative speech, but still pretty clear what Dany is supposed to do. The vast majority are figurative. Make a list and see. Grrm's views on prophesies as a literary device... Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that. You think Grrm's going to make his central prophesies easy and literal? As for 'all' of Maggy's prophesies being straightforward, we still don't know who the valonquar actually is, so i wouldn't call that one just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 BC87, well, he sort of is (or was), but that's not actual a very distinct character description. You could also describe me in that way, ah... J. Stargaryen, I'd imagine that Rhaegar's melancholy and Jon's sullenness have more to do with their particular upbringing - Summerhall, life as a bastard - then the fact that they are biologically father and son (no idea if jolly Bobby B. would have been all that jolly if he had been brought up as a bastard). And Jon also does not seem to show any of the special Targaryen character traits - madness, eccentricity, sadism, nor great intelligence or super-charisma (and that's not meant as an insult). Don't get me started on Azor Ahai. yolkboy, I guess the volonqar will be somebody's younger brother - most likely one of Cersei's two younger brothers. Not sure that Maggy would use the phrase if it would not refer to a person closely related to Cersei - her seeing some guy who is also some guy's younger brother - which has actually nothing to do with the topic I'm talking about - would be very strange... Some random younger brother would be stupid, as would be a scenario were some landmark or thing is called 'younger brother' by some people. But I admit it, I've difficulty imagining what Jon could do if he is the promised prince. He has no understanding of magic, no dragons, only one Valyrian steel sword, and does not really have a huge army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Events like the waking of dragons from stone could be re-imagined as revealing a hidden dragon or something like that (as it did happen in TMK with Egg), but I really don't see how the waking of literal dragons from literal stone eggs should not be the thing meant by the original prophecy. If GRRM came now up with a way to give that prophetic aspect a non-magical or non-literal meaning, he would retrospectively invalidate the hatching of the dragon eggs. And even if he did it: Who the hell will be the in-universe authority proclaiming without a doubt that Jon is the promised prince if there are two candidates - one meeting a series of literal prophecy-fulfillings, and the other a series of figurative fulfillings. Agreed. This is what bugs me about people insisting Daenerys cannot be Azor Ahai reborn and it must be Jon. (Again, I think it's both of them) How can you discount the literal waking of dragons from stone as being "too obvious?" No offense to anyone but that seems really dumb to me. It's like inverting Occam's razor. At what point in the books is it safe to take what people like Aemon say at face value instead of declaring it a red herring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 snip *Gets you started on Azor Ahai.* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 And Jon also does not seem to show any of the special Targaryen character traits - madness, eccentricity, sadism, nor great intelligence or super-charisma (and that's not meant as an insult). He does possibly have prophetic dreams no? Or are they Warg dreams... I honestly can't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 BC87, well, he sort of is (or was), but that's not actual a very distinct character description. You could also describe me in that way, ah... Well what kind of distinct character description are you looking for? Cause so far what I gave you is applicable to both Jon and Rhaegar. I mean, we don't have a lot of Rhaegar but what we do have fits with his son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Well, if Benerro is any indication then the guys in the east don't really know what's happened during the Long Night (stuff about fighting the darkness, and getting reborn if you die in her service... Really?). They believe that some hero existed who saved the world, or slew some demons/monsters, but we really don't know if that had anything to do with the Others. If I had to guess, then Benerro is trying to use some ancient prophecies and Dany for his own political agenda - a coup/revolution in Volantis, and th propagation of his religion, but not exactly the saving of the world... Melisandre seems to connect Azor Ahai with the promised prince (perhaps because she is originally from Westeros?), and Aemon kind of goes along with that, indicating that the Targaryen version of the prophecy may also be connected or share some of the Azor Ahai stuff. But whatever the guys in the East know - and, really, the Valyrians could have known a lot, especially if the civilization is much older than we originally thought, or the Long Night occurred somewhat later - the Azor Ahai/promised prince prophecies do not seem to be connected to whatever traditions of the Last Hero and the War for the Dawn. Thus I'd imagine that it will fall to Bran to sort out what originally happened back during the Long Night, what the Others are, who the Last Hero was, etc., and then we can try to sort out what the purpose of the present-day savior may be, how he is connected to the ancient hero, and what the hell the various prophecies got wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_Samwell_Snow Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Don't get me started symbolism and foreshadowing with G.R.R.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 yolkboy, I guess the volonqar will be somebody's younger brother - most likely one of Cersei's two younger brothers. Not sure that Maggy would use the phrase if it would not refer to a person closely related to Cersei - her seeing some guy who is also some guy's younger brother - which has actually nothing to do with the topic I'm talking about - would be very strange... Some random younger brother would be stupid, as would be a scenario were some landmark or thing is called 'younger brother' by some people. My point was that you were alluding to the Valonqar being a literal prophesy when we don't know that yet. Valonqar could be one of the 'Second Sons' or a part of a brotherhood for examples. "But I admit it, I've difficulty imagining what Jon could do if he is the promised prince. He has no understanding of magic, no dragons, only one Valyrian steel sword, and does not really have a huge army." Last Hero had no buddies and a dead dog last time we heard about him. He must have gone on to do something significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I'm aware, I just don't buy into them. Especially not when there was a literal red star for Aegon's birth and Danaerys' "rebirth." The cremation one is especially ridiculous in my opinion. They weren't cremating her as Jon was being born. For Dany's rebirth yes, for Aegon's conception, no. See Maester Cressen's ruminations in the prologue to ACOK. (He is almost 80 and is freaked out by the color of the comet, having never seen one of that color before.)I wonder what spawned this forum "urban legend"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_Samwell_Snow Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Or Fact vs Fiction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 For Dany's rebirth yes, for Aegon's conception, no. See Maester Cressen's ruminations in the prologue to ACOK. (He is almost 80 and is freaked out by the color of the comet, having never seen one of that color before.)I wonder what spawned this forum "urban legend"? He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. Maybe the comet was a different color, or maybe it just wasn't visible from Storm's End or wherever he was at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Maybe the comet was a different color, or maybe it just wasn't visible from Storm's End or wherever he was at the time? The comet at the end of Game and at the start of Clash is the same color for everyone, so I'm betting Rhaegar's comet was a different color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 The comet at the end of Game and at the start of Clash is the same color for everyone, so I'm betting Rhaegar's comet was a different color. Yeah that's what I meant, not that either of the comets changed colors. Sorry if I was unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 The vast majority are figurative. Make a list and see. Grrm's views on prophesies as a literary device... Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that. You think Grrm's going to make his central prophesies easy and literal? As for 'all' of Maggy's prophesies being straightforward, we still don't know who the valonquar actually is, so i wouldn't call that one just yet. This quote is exactly what I think of when people try to make the AA prophecy too literal and/or straightforward. To use the biggest example: For pete's sake, there is literally nothing "easier" about Dany being the heroic AA than Aemon, Benerro, etc. saying, "Dany is the heroic AA." He's used "dragon" symbolically at least twice, in the D&E stories, and I think the story will bear out that Rhaegar's birth at Summerhall was in fact a third instance where a "dragon" vision turned out to be symbolic (i.e. Aegon V didn't hatch literal dragons there; Rhaegar was born). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellfoy Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Yep ! And didn't GRRM said that he liked to surprise his readers ? Where would be the surprise if Dany was really TPTWP ? Aemon outright stated it -> surprise = 0Anyways, I'm still not convinced about AA = TPTWP. I think that Dany is most likely AA but that it would have nothing to do with the others in that case. Jon is for me TPTWP ("Promise me Ned") and possibly Lightbringer.Or there would be multiple characters fufilling the prophecy and it would be trust to the reader to prefer who he/she wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguy Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Yep ! And didn't GRRM said that he liked to surprise his readers ? Where would be the surprise if Dany was really TPTWP ? Aemon outright stated it -> surprise = 0 Anyways, I'm still not convinced about AA = TPTWP. I think that Dany is most likely AA but that it would have nothing to do with the others in that case. Jon is for me TPTWP ("Promise me Ned") and possibly Lightbringer. Or there would be multiple characters fufilling the prophecy and it would be trust to the reader to prefer who he/she wants. i think there's a chapter where melisandre is talking to davos, and she says that stannis is tPtwP. it could be a mistake though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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