R+L=J v.98

[BearQueen87]

Targaryens have been actively associated with fire (it is in their words "Fire and Blood" after all).

Though I get why people associate Starks with Ice, no one in story has ever associated Starks with Ice, for as far as I can recall (if they have, please point me to the quotes :) ).

I don't think it needs to be exactly ICE but they have--Snow, Winter is coming, Ice the Sword

lso, upon Aegon's birth, Rhaegar states that "his is the song...", not that "he is the song". If the song of ice and fire is the promised prince, than Rhaegar wouldn´t have said "his is" originally, right?

Well I think GRRM is being tricksy. But to me this line means that there something about the person who posses the song that is a reflection of ice and fire or else that person wouldn't have the song.

- Going on a tangent: Stannis + Mel = fire-fire. Night King + pale woman = ice-ice. Hm. Is this leading anywhere?

In a word: yes

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

We, as readers associate the Starks with Ice.. in part because of Ice, the sword. But as I asked, do the characters in-universe?

I think the characters in universe would certainly know about the sword Ice and the legendary connection of the Starks with the Wall, plus their words are quite "icy", no?

Bringing the observation of the reader back into play, in AGoT Ned's words are often described as "icy" perhaps a sly nod at the connection :)

[Mithras]

Lady Gwyn, I listened to all of your Episodes and liked it very much. Your ads and sponsors are hilarious :lol:

Are you two planning to make an Episode for the Brightfyre Theory? As far as I can find, that theory is not discussed deeply on the web except the thread in this forum. A Radio Westeros Episode for that would be awesome. :rolleyes:

[yolkboy]

Lady Gwyn, I listened to all of your Episodes and liked it very much. Your ads and sponsors are hilarious :lol:

Are you two planning to make an Episode for the Brightfyre Theory? As far as I can find, that theory is not discussed deeply on the web except the thread in this forum. A Radio Westeros Episode for that would be awesome. :rolleyes:

We want to do a Blackfyre episode in the future, and that could be part of it. We both like that Brightfyre theory, so we'll have to see what we can arrange there. Glad you like the sponsors, we just put the readings and ad's up on the site.

[Amoracchius]

I think the characters in universe would certainly know about the sword Ice and the legendary connection of the Starks with the Wall, plus their words are quite "icy", no?

Bringing the observation of the reader back into play, in AGoT Ned's words are often described as "icy" perhaps a sly nod at the connection :)

Yeah, I thought the ice/snow/winter/cold association with the Starks was pretty well established.

From the family's ancestral sword, to the name of their castle, to their family words, it's one of the major themes of the books. There's also Cat commenting that Ned could handle the cold better than she could, and that his tone was "cold as ice" when she asked him about Jon's mother. Littlefinger said that "heat ill suits" Starks because they were "cold as ice" and he thought they melted when they went south of the Neck. Ned himself even made reference to "the frozen hell reserved for Starks."

[UVA]

That is my hope for how prophecies work in ASOIAF as well. I.e., that they are mutable. That it is not just the matter of people interpreting the things wrongly, but that the prophecies/visions can come about in different ways. Like, in the House of the Undying Dany sees "futures that might have been" among other things, like her and Drogo's son, all grown.

Future being set in stone would destroy most of what makes ASOIAF so great, IMHO.

This brings up something that I've always had a philosophical problem with attempts to interpret prophesy fulfillment more literally in the series. Is Martin really advocating predestination ordained by "the gods" (cold, old, or fire) or is prophesy realized by an individual acting on their own free will, through their deeds? If it's the latter case, then prophesies are much more mutable and may be fulfilled by anyone by their choices and deeds, rather than a "chosen one". For this reason, certain theories, e.g., Rhaegar pursued Lyanna chiefly because somehow he was certain that she was the woman who would give him the third head and/or TPTWP, and therefore Jon must be this figure, seem kinda off the mark.

We want to do a Blackfyre episode in the future, and that could be part of it. We both like that Brightfyre theory, so we'll have to see what we can arrange there. Glad you like the sponsors, we just put the readings and ad's up on the site.

Lol. I'm a fan YB, you guys do such a good job of presenting well-reasoned views. Looking forward to the next episode.

[Kingmonkey]

We, as readers associate the Starks with Ice.. in part because of Ice, the sword. But as I asked, do the characters in-universe?

The Starks live at Winterfell (which was built by the first Stark, who also built a bloody great wall out of ice), like to tell people that Winter is Coming, name their bastards Snow, have an ancestral sword called Ice, and used to be the Kings of Winter. I'd say yes.

[BearQueen87]

We want to do a Blackfyre episode in the future, and that could be part of it. We both like that Brightfyre theory, so we'll have to see what we can arrange there. Glad you like the sponsors, we just put the readings and ad's up on the site.

Oh a Blackfyre episode would be excellent! Love the work you and Lady G are doing. I thought the latest episode was the best one yet.

This brings up something that I've always had a philosophical problem with attempts to interpret prophesy fulfillment more literally in the series. Is Martin really advocating predestination ordained by "the gods" (cold, old, or fire) or is prophesy realized by an individual acting on their own free will, through their deeds? If it's the latter case, then prophesies are much more mutable and may be fulfilled by anyone by their choices and deeds, rather than a "chosen one". For this reason, certain theories, e.g., Rhaegar pursued Lyanna chiefly because somehow he was certain that she was the woman who would give him the third head and/or TPTWP, and therefore Jon must be this figure, seem kinda off the mark.

I don't think GRRM is advocating predestination. I think he's advocating that following prophecy literally and putting all your eggs into that basket is a bad idea. Rhaegar may very well have been 100% correct that his son with Lyanna is 3rd head of the dragon and/or TPTWP. But at what cost? Is there any chance Jon would have been born, or another child born of ice and fire let's say, without Rhaegar trying to give fate a little push? We'll never know obviously, but I think that's part of GRRM is playing with. If there is predestination in the series, the fault lies not with the predestination itself but rather with those individuals who strive to bring the predetermined fate about faster for their desires--be they good or bad.

[Mithras]

... like to tell people that Winter is Coming ...

and they always turn out to be right about that

[Kingmonkey]

This brings up something that I've always had a philosophical problem with attempts to interpret prophesy fulfillment more literally in the series. Is Martin really advocating predestination ordained by "the gods" (cold, old, or fire) or is prophesy realized by an individual acting on their own free will, through their deeds? If it's the latter case, then prophesies are much more mutable and may be fulfilled by anyone by their choices and deeds, rather than a "chosen one". For this reason, certain theories, e.g., Rhaegar pursued Lyanna chiefly because somehow he was certain that she was the woman who would give him the third head and/or TPTWP, and therefore Jon must be this figure, seem kinda off the mark.

I think GRRM makes it clear that prophecy is not to be trusted. Prophecy comes from visions, and even a true vision can be misunderstood, see Melisandre's claim that Arya was headed for the wall. This does mean that a search for a "true" interpretation of prophecy is indeed a messy and probably foolish business, but that doesn't mean that people like Rhaegar wouldn't pursue it.

[Kingmonkey]

and they always turn out to be right about that

There's a line I believe in the first Catelyn chapter of GoT where she observes that the Starks are the only house with a motto that isn't a boast or a threat. I'm not convinced this is necessarily true, as the meaning of the motto might be "(the King of) Winter is Coming (for you)". The implication being that the Starks are as implacable as winter.

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the series, whatever gives Westeros its bonkers season gets fixed. We've had a lot of foreshadowing about how this should be a pretty seriously nasty winter and thanks to the Wot5k everyone's rather short on supplies. The final book, originally A Time for Wolves, is now A Dream for Spring (so soon?). Rickon has a wolf called Summer. We may yet see a new motto for the Starks.

Stuff for a different thread though, I'll shut up now.

[BearQueen87]

There's a line I believe in the first Catelyn chapter of GoT where she observes that the Starks are the only house with a motto that isn't a boast or a threat. I'm not convinced this is necessarily true, as the meaning of the motto might be "(the King of) Winter is Coming (for you)". The implication being that the Starks are as implacable as winter.

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the series, whatever gives Westeros its bonkers season gets fixed. We've had a lot of foreshadowing about how this should be a pretty seriously nasty winter and thanks to the Wot5k everyone's rather short on supplies. The final book, originally A Time for Wolves, is now A Dream for Spring (so soon?). Rickon has a wolf called Summer. We may yet see a new motto for the Starks.

Stuff for a different thread though, I'll shut up now.

I know it's a bit off topic, but I was wondering the same thing as you when this conversation began. If the seasons get fixed or if Winter becomes less hellish, do the Starks take different words? "Summer is here?" 'Spring has sprung?" (those are both terrible but I am not GRRM)

Would Jon play a part in deciding the new Stark words? (even though I think he'll take Ice and Fire for his own words, should he rule any part of Westeros)

ETA: Rickon's wolf is Shaggydog. Bran's wolf is Summer

[Amoracchius]

There's a line I believe in the first Catelyn chapter of GoT where she observes that the Starks are the only house with a motto that isn't a boast or a threat. I'm not convinced this is necessarily true, as the meaning of the motto might be "(the King of) Winter is Coming (for you)". The implication being that the Starks are as implacable as winter.

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the series, whatever gives Westeros its bonkers season gets fixed. We've had a lot of foreshadowing about how this should be a pretty seriously nasty winter and thanks to the Wot5k everyone's rather short on supplies. The final book, originally A Time for Wolves, is now A Dream for Spring (so soon?). Rickon has a wolf called Summer. We may yet see a new motto for the Starks.

Stuff for a different thread though, I'll shut up now.

There are a couple times when Robb used "Winter is coming" as a threat. I can totally imagine someone like Brandon doing the same, but overall, I think the point is well taken, "Winter is coming," can mean many different things. It can be close the Boys Scouts' motto, "Be prepared" ....because winter is coming. It can be a threat, "You better run, because winter is coming for you." Or it can be a simple statement of fact, like Maester Aemon said, eventually Starks are always right, eventually winter will come.

[Kingmonkey]

ETA: Rickon's wolf is Shaggydog. Bran's wolf is Summer

D'oh!

[Alia of the knife]

The suspicions and the intentions and the actions of a sadistic, paranoid, delusional madman are extremely difficult for sane people to predict - because they are usually by definition unreasonable suspicions, intentions, and actions. Aerys began to harbor paranoid suspicions of Rhaegar long before Rhaegar had given him any real reason to believe treason of him - and Aerys hired Varys and put huge power in his hands to protect himself from that phantom danger - even though doing so was ultimately against Aerys' best interests, as it alienated son from father and ultimately helped produce the betrayal that he was trying to prevent. And Aerys has only gone downhill since then.

What's to prevent a madman like Aerys from having unreasonable suspicions of Elia, deciding she's a spy and a tool of either her husband or Dorne against him? You, with the benefit of hindsight, know that ultimately Aerys didn't cause Elia and the kids' death (even though he would have if Jaime hadn't killed him). But you can't retroactively attribute that hindsight to Rhaegar. When Rhaegar was last at King's Landing, he saw the full flowering of Aerys' madness. Aerys had long since started burning people and making his nocturnal visits to Rhaella and abusing her, tearing her flesh with his teeth and overgrown claws. He had murdered Rickard and demanded the heads of Robert and Ned and started a war entirely unreasonably and against his own best interests. Aerys is actively destroying the Targaryen dynasty through that war.

If Rhaegar told himself that even though Aerys was destroying the kingdom for no good reason, physically harming his own sister/wife and had turned against Rhaegar, his own son, for no good reason, Elia was IMMUNE to ever having Aerys' evil eye light on HER unreasonably as a danger, he was actively lying to himself.

And even if Rhaegar believed it, he would know that if he lost at the Trident, ALL bets were off. It's not unheard of for egomaniac Royals to have themselves and their palace subjects killed off rather than fall in the hands of their enemies (even Cersei wanted to do it). Since Rhaegar refused to station even ONE KG near KL to help Elia and his children in the event of disaster, I can only conclude that he was actively closing his eyes to the danger his wife and children faced in the hands of a sadistic paranoid lunatic, to the danger they faced if Rhaegar DID lose the battle - closing his eyes to EVERYTHING but his narcissistic dream that everything would turn out exactly as he had so masterfully planned for the best of everyone.

Because stationing a KG at KL to save his kids if things went wrong would be an ADMISSION that maybe he'd made a selfish, giant mistake that was a disaster for Westeros and a threat to his own children. It would be admitting that he was NOT the masterful hero, just the buffoon of the fates, and I don't think he could admit that to himself. I think denial and ego is the ONLY possible reason he made no plans for the possiblity of his defeat.

These are troubling issues, and certainly JonCon alludes to Rhaegars finally opening his eyes to the extent of Aerys madness. It also troubles me the terrible irony that he was the one who knighted the Mountain, as well as being apparently blind to Tywins schemes though I suspect he did have a say in turning down Cersei.

I also don't think Rhaegar was evil, but certainly conflicted when it came to what he wanted and his duty. I think Selmys statement that "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it ," is compelling.

Couple that with the thought he was tPtwP, and prophesy, and that becomes a heady mix of motivations.

I also don't understand why he never made any pilgrimages to the Wall to speak with his Uncle, or seemingly made the Wall his cause. It was not unusual for young Aristocrats to have such causes, if nothing else to alleviate the boredom of waiting to become king.

These are actionable things in the here and now that he could do if its the North or beyond he Wall that he sees as the metaphysical threat to the world.

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

[BearQueen87]

These are troubling issues, and certainly JonCon alludes to Rhaegars finally opening his eyes to the extent of Aerys madness. It also troubles me the terrible irony that he was the one who knighted the Mountain, as well as being apparently blind to Tywins schemes though I suspect he did have a say in turning down Cersei.

I also don't think Rhaegar was evil, but certainly conflicted when it came to what he wanted and his duty. I think Selmys statement that "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it ," is compelling.

Couple that with the thought he was tPtwP, and prophesy, and that becomes a heady mix of motivations.

I also don't understand why he never made any pilgrimages to the Wall to speak with his Uncle, or seemingly made the Wall his cause. It was not unusual for young Aristocrats to have such causes, if nothing else to alleviate the boredom of waiting to become king.

These are actionable things in the here and now that he could do if its the North or beyond he Wall that he sees as the metaphysical threat to the world.

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Well did he know that TPTWP is supposed to fight the Others? That's certainly Mel's interpretation of it but that stems from being a Red Priestess who's theology is dualistic and has "A Great Other" that fights R'hllor.

Or perhaps R does know but was waiting until he had TPTWP and Three Heads to take action for the Wall. I think with Rhaegar there is a lot of "I need to wait until I have everything in place before I act" which is one of the great tragedies of his life. He should have acted against Aerys right away.

[Alia of the knife]

This brings up something that I've always had a philosophical problem with attempts to interpret prophesy fulfillment more literally in the series. Is Martin really advocating predestination ordained by "the gods" (cold, old, or fire) or is prophesy realized by an individual acting on their own free will, through their deeds? If it's the latter case, then prophesies are much more mutable and may be fulfilled by anyone by their choices and deeds, rather than a "chosen one". For this reason, certain theories, e.g., Rhaegar pursued Lyanna chiefly because somehow he was certain that she was the woman who would give him the third head and/or TPTWP, and therefore Jon must be this figure, seem kinda off the mark.

I agree. I think GRRM takes a very cautionary approach regarding prophesy and those who attempt to live their lives as such. Prophesy, at least from my understanding are a chain of events that come about naturally, and not to be manipulated or forced into happening.

Inserting oneself so much into the mix, or perhaps wanting something to come true for whatever reason already taints the vision/events. We don't even know that the all the visions Dany saw were pure,(a prerequisite for prophesy to be true), or the machinations of the wizards to mislead her.

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

[Amoracchius]

Couple that with the thought he was tPtwP, and prophesy, and that becomes a heady mix of motivations.

I also don't understand why he never made any pilgrimages to the Wall to speak with his Uncle, or seemingly made the Wall his cause. It was not unusual for young Aristocrats to have such causes, if nothing else to alleviate the boredom of waiting to become king.

These are actionable things in the here and now that he could do if its the North or beyond he Wall that he sees as the metaphysical threat to the world.

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

With regard to the bold, maybe Rhaegar's reading of the Prince that was Promised prophecy (or whatever it was that made him believe he needed to become a warrior) didn't have anything to do with the Others or the Wall at all. It's possible that he was focused on fulfilling the prophecy and that was his "cause," as you put it, but that cause had no relation to anything up North, and maybe didn't even have anything to do with a threat to the world.

I keep getting the feeling from posts on the forum (not necessarily yours, AotK) that people believe Rhaegar had a whole lot of secret knowledge that we, as readers, don't yet have. I think that's possible but, to me at least, what's more interesting is the possibility that Rhaegar was just as confused and misinformed as so many other characters we have encountered.

[RumHam]

Yeah, I thought the ice/snow/winter/cold association with the Starks was pretty well established.

From the family's ancestral sword, to the name of their castle, to their family words, it's one of the major themes of the books. There's also Cat commenting that Ned could handle the cold better than she could, and that his tone was "cold as ice" when she asked him about Jon's mother. Littlefinger said that "heat ill suits" Starks because they were "cold as ice" and he thought they melted when they went south of the Neck. Ned himself even made reference to "the frozen hell reserved for Starks."

It is, because they rule the north and all. Just like the Tullys might be associated with rivers. But people don't seem to think of them as ice personified. They call them wolves. There was Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark, but that's about it. The Others are the ice part of the Song of Ice and Fire.

[Amoracchius]

It is, because they rule the north and all. Just like the Tullys might be associated with rivers. But people don't seem to think of them as ice personified. They call them wolves. There was Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark, but that's about it. The Others are the ice part of the Song of Ice and Fire.

In the post you just responded to I included multiple quotes where characters equated Starks with ice/cold/winter/etc. or otherwise described them as such, so yes, there are multiple examples of people in-universe thinking of them as ice personified beyond Brandon "Ice Eyes."