R+L=J v.98

[Ygrain]

Roughly two years, yes. Tourney at Harrenhal occurred in 281, Sack of KL the second half of 283AC

Yeah. Cross-check - Jaime is 15 at HH and 17 at the Sack.

[Anath]

Because the Targaryen children are kinda raised to believe that incest is ok. Egg's sister wanted to give him a love potion so he would marry her. In the same way, Aegon would learn from early start that his sister Joannie (?) is also blood of the dragon and should marry her.

She isn't his sister Joannie, she is his half-sister. You know, the one whose mother their father married to Aegon's own mother's detriment. Especially if Rhaegar kept favouring Lyanna as he always did before and his children with her which is entirely possible. Aegon I did so. Every Targaryen king with children by different mothers did play favourites.

Aegon might not be so fond of his half-siblings. And while he might be just fine with incest, he'll have Rhaenys for that. Why should he resort to Lyanna's daughter?

Besides, Egg was fine with incest but he did marry for love. Meaning, there was something arranged for him and he didn't care. Even if he married a sister, she was not the one he was supposed and taught from early start that he should marry.

[Lord Varys]

Prophecy should not concern itself with legitimate birth. At least not if the overall topic is supposed to be the saving of the world, and not, say, for instantce, the morals of the rich and powerful...

This is also a reason why I don't think the cloth dragon lie Dany has to slay is connected to Aegon's heritage. It will be either be connected to him posing wrongly as Azor Ahai, or to him posing wrongly as a dragon, when he in fact does not have Targaryen blood.

Sorcerers should not concern themselves with legal issues. And by the way: If Rhaegar had tried to explain his actions by 'I am fulfilling prophecy. Get out of my way you lesser mortal men.', the Lords of Westeros would have almost certainly considered him to be as mad - or even madder - than his father.

And to repeat myself: I never doubted - and don't doubt - that Rhaegar could have married Lyanna. My point just is that reviving the Targaryen polygamy thing is not going to just magically enable Jon to claim the Iron Throne.

If he ever gathers enough followers to make a claim, the easiest way to dismiss him would be to question the validity of Rhaegar's secret marriage - the followers of Aegon and Daenerys will do just that, if they even accept whatever proof is provided that a marriage took place (even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, who will be able to prove that Jon Snow is indeed Rhaegar's son). Then comes the problem that Jon has actually foresworn any rights to a crown, so unless the Other problem is finally resolved for all time, there would be no reason for him to leave the NW.

I really want GRRM to address and not simply dismiss all those issues. He has designed his hidden prince in such a way that his identity will be very difficult to prove, and it will be all but impossible for him story line wisr to gather enough followers or develop the intention to take the throne.

Jon Snow could easily be the first hidden prince who is not going to become king, despite the fact that he may very well be the rightful heir.

[BearQueen87]

Prophecy should not concern itself with legitimate birth. At least not if the overall topic is supposed to be the saving of the world, and not, say, for instantce, the morals of the rich and powerful...

Prophecy probably does not give a hoot one way or the other about legitimate birth. But the people interpreting it might. It all comes down to what Rhaegar thought, not what the actual prophecy may or may not have meant originally.

And to repeat myself: I never doubted - and don't doubt - that Rhaegar could have married Lyanna. My point just is that reviving the Targaryen polygamy thing is not going to just magically enable Jon to claim the Iron Throne.

I don't think Rhaegar ever intended Jon to take the throne. And I don't think that if Jon does take the throne that it will be because he's a legit Targ. The others who want the throne--Stannis, Aegon, Dany--will either be dead or will give up their claim.

Jon Snow could easily be the first hidden prince who is not going to become king, despite the fact that he may very well be the rightful heir.

He could, yes. It could/would be GRRM's big "break" from the trope.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Yeah. Cross-check - Jaime is 15 at HH and 17 at the Sack.

Gotcha, thanks.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Prophecy probably does not give a hoot one way or the other about legitimate birth. But the people interpreting it might. It all comes down to what Rhaegar thought, not what the actual prophecy may or may not have meant originally.

I agree with the concept.

But if this is viewed in regards to Jon, it would depend on Rhagaer having believed that Lyanna would birth the Promised Prince.

Which would mean that Rhaegar had concluded that Aegon was the Promised Prince, and had then concluded that he was wrong about that within a very short timeframe, for very little reason.

Imagine, you are Rhaegar. You either saw yourself, or learn from people, that a comet has been sighted. A red comet, the bleeding star, around that time you had slept with your wife. Then a month or a little more later, your wife discovers she is pregnant, and you, as Rhaegar, go count which date falls about 9 months after the comet had been seen. You believe that the comet heralds the birth of a promised prince: a boy. And look, 9 months after the comet had been seen, your wife gives birth, to a boy, which you had totally been expecting. So far, the prophecy checks out.

Something kind of major has to happen before Rhaegar would change his mind on who the Promised Prince is/was/would be.

And if he had believed that Lyanna was necessary to make said Promised Prince, one would wonder why he didn't act immediately after meeting her, but instead waited about a year...

[BearQueen87]

I agree with the concept.

But if this is viewed in regards to Jon, it would depend on Rhagaer having believed that Lyanna would birth the Promised Prince.

Which would mean that Rhaegar had concluded that Aegon was the Promised Prince, and had then concluded that he was wrong about that within a very short timeframe, for very little reason.

Imagine, you are Rhaegar. You either saw yourself, or learn from people, that a comet has been sighted. A red comet, the bleeding star, around that time you had slept with your wife. Then a month or a little more later, your wife discovers she is pregnant, and you, as Rhaegar, go count which date falls about 9 months after the comet had been seen. You believe that the comet heralds the birth of a promised prince: a boy. And look, 9 months after the comet had been seen, your wife gives birth, to a boy, which you had totally been expecting. So far, the prophecy checks out.

Something kind of major has to happen before Rhaegar would change his mind on who the Promised Prince is/was/would be.

And if he had believed that Lyanna was necessary to make said Promised Prince, one would wonder why he didn't act immediately after meeting her, but instead waited about a year...

The major thing could be that Elia can't have anymore kids, the woman Rhaegar though he was making not only the 3 heads of the dragon but also TPTWP. So Rhaegar decided to "take" Lyanna and in doing so, things begin to click in his head. Suddenly the red comet wasn't a sign that he needed to conceive a baby with Elia, it was a sign that he had met/would meet (depending on when the comet was sighted over KL) Lyanna. And then he thinks, oh! She's the ice to my fire! That fits with the prophecy too! And then, okay I need to marry her because 1) prince and 2) love.

[J. Stargaryen]

And what makes everyone assume that Aegon would humbly obey his father's wishes and marry a daughter of Lyanna's (if Rhaegar's intentions were such)? He might have some problems with daddy dearest reviving a well forgotten custom that was detrimental to Aegon's own mother. Especially if Rhaegar pulled an Aegon I and showed open preference to Lyanna and her children. And Aegon would have the precedent, wouldn't he? Rhaegar was not exactly an obedient son leaving his father choose his second match if there was indeed such a match.

Funny how everyone excuses Rhaegar causing unrest with his possible second marriage by assuming that Aegon would gladly accept a daughter of Lyanna without giving a peep.

Nice straw man. But, to counter something you actually said, the fact that plans can be broken never seems to prevent anyone from actually making them.

I have no idea why you think he is thinking of Lyanna. We have no reason to believe that he has been told at this point that Elia cannot bear any more children. We have no reason to believe that Rhaegar was not expecting to have a third child with Elia (the woman in the bed) at that point in time. The aspect of the vision in which Rhaegar might have been looking at Dany suggests that it is a message to Dany that she is one of the heads and she has to find the other two because "The dragon has three heads." But I see no evidence that he was thinking about Lyanna at that time shortly after Aegon's birth.

Because in the R+L=LB theory, there are Lyanna-Dany connections/parallels.

I have to agree--I don't know where this speculation that Rhaegar was going to marry Aegon to Lyanna's daughter is coming from. While I agree with Unmasked Lurker that R expected a boy with Lyanna, even if he did expect a girl, Rhaegar is a first hand witness to the dangers of incest. He knows how unhappy his mother was, being forced to marry her own brother. I have to wonder if R knew about Bonifer and how much Rhaella loved him and the pain it caused her to be unable to wed him. I don't think he would inflict that on his children.

It was in counter to the speculation that Lyanna was going to be Rhaegar's glorified concubine, and that only R&E's children would be sitting the IT. If, as a Targaryen, you have two branches of heirs the best way to prevent them from becoming rival factions is to bind them in marriage.

Prophecy should not concern itself with legitimate birth. At least not if the overall topic is supposed to be the saving of the world, and not, say, for instantce, the morals of the rich and powerful...

This is also a reason why I don't think the cloth dragon lie Dany has to slay is connected to Aegon's heritage. It will be either be connected to him posing wrongly as Azor Ahai, or to him posing wrongly as a dragon, when he in fact does not have Targaryen blood.

Sorcerers should not concern themselves with legal issues. And by the way: If Rhaegar had tried to explain his actions by 'I am fulfilling prophecy. Get out of my way you lesser mortal men.', the Lords of Westeros would have almost certainly considered him to be as mad - or even madder - than his father.

And to repeat myself: I never doubted - and don't doubt - that Rhaegar could have married Lyanna. My point just is that reviving the Targaryen polygamy thing is not going to just magically enable Jon to claim the Iron Throne.

If he ever gathers enough followers to make a claim, the easiest way to dismiss him would be to question the validity of Rhaegar's secret marriage - the followers of Aegon and Daenerys will do just that, if they even accept whatever proof is provided that a marriage took place (even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, who will be able to prove that Jon Snow is indeed Rhaegar's son). Then comes the problem that Jon has actually foresworn any rights to a crown, so unless the Other problem is finally resolved for all time, there would be no reason for him to leave the NW.

I really want GRRM to address and not simply dismiss all those issues. He has designed his hidden prince in such a way that his identity will be very difficult to prove, and it will be all but impossible for him story line wisr to gather enough followers or develop the intention to take the throne.

Jon Snow could easily be the first hidden prince who is not going to become king, despite the fact that he may very well be the rightful heir.

I can't speak for everyone else here, but I do know there are a few of us who think the same thing. I, for one, think that there are better chances Jon becomes king as a Stark or Snow than as a Targaryen. When the legitimacy argument is brought up around here, it is usually concerning how Jon's life began, not how it will end.

[Lord Varys]

My guess would be that ever dutiful Rhaegar finally realized that Elia's incapability of bearing further children allowed him to follow his heart. He was in love, and the prophecy demanded - in his mind - another child. That is why he took Lyanna. There would have been little reason to rethink it all again, at least not unless there had been other, as of yet unknown signs.

If Rhaegar had changed his mind about the promised prince again, if he expected Lyanna would give birth to him, we should or would have to consider the possibility that Rhaegar was about to discard both Elia and her children. After all, would it not be better if the promised prince would also become king? And would it not also make sense that Lyanna would give birth to all the dragon heads then, not merely to the promised prince?

That is a dangerous chain of thoughts. Rhaegar must have been aware of the Dance and the succession war between Maegor and Aenys' children. He would have act to prevent such a thing, would he not? It would be dangerous if an elder half- brother stood in the way of the savior of the world...

[BearQueen87]

It was in counter to the speculation that Lyanna was going to be Rhaegar's glorified concubine, and that only R&E's children would be sitting the IT. If, as a Targaryen, you have two branches of heirs the best way to prevent them from becoming rival factions is to bind them in marriage.

I agree with the political theory. I just don't know if Rhaegar would have gone for it.

I can't speak for everyone else here, but I do know there are a few of us who think the same thing. I, for one, think that there are better chances Jon becomes king as a Stark or Snow than as a Targaryen. When the legitimacy argument is brought up around here, it is usually concerning how Jon's life began, not how it will end.

He could start the Snow dynasty. The name you give to kids who don't have a name suddenly because the name of the Kings. Nice.

If Rhaegar had changed his mind about the promised prince again, if he expected Lyanna would give birth to him, we should or would have to consider the possibility that Rhaegar was about to discard both Elia and her children. After all, would it not be better if the promised prince would also become king? And would it not also make sense that Lyanna would give birth to all the dragon heads then, not merely to the promised prince?

.

I disagree. I think in Rhaegar's mind, TPTWP had far more important things to do than to run the kingdom. He had Aegon for that, the son with Lyanna was meant for the salvation of mankind.

[J. Stargaryen]

My guess would be that ever dutiful Rhaegar finally realized that Elia's incapability of bearing further children allowed him to follow his heart. He was in love, and the prophecy demanded - in his mind - another child. That is why he took Lyanna. There would have been little reason to rethink it all again, at least not unless there had been other, as of yet unknown signs.

If Rhaegar had changed his mind about the promised prince again, if he expected Lyanna would give birth to him, we should or would have to consider the possibility that Rhaegar was about to discard both Elia and her children. After all, would it not be better if the promised prince would also become king? And would it not also make sense that Lyanna would give birth to all the dragon heads then, not merely to the promised prince?

That is a dangerous chain of thoughts. Rhaegar must have been aware of the Dance and the succession war between Maegor and Aenys' children. He would have act to prevent such a thing, would he not? It would be dangerous if an elder half- brother stood in the way of the savior of the world...

Lately I've been thinking that Rhaegar believed that his son (possibly son and heir), not specifically Aegon mind you, was the PtwP. He surely would have told Lyanna this. And Lyanna would have realized that the birth of her son gave Rhaegar a second chance to be right about the prophecy, following the death of Aegon.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, but how would the savior do that? And how would Rhaegar's son and heir react to the fact that his younger brother was apparently much more special and important than he could ever be.

And how the hell could the savior do anything without the king's leave?

JS,

Lyanna could have realized that her son by Rhaegar might be the One. She didn't know anything about Daenerys. But Rhaegar seemed to be pretty sure about Aegon in the vision. All he wanted then and there was another.

The promise could have much more to do with that then with Ned taking care of Jon, or burying her in Winterfell. That is, if she ever bought or cared about the prophecy stuff. We lack any hint in that direction.

[J. Stargaryen]

I agree with the political theory. I just don't know if Rhaegar would have gone for it.

He could start the Snow dynasty. The name you give to kids who don't have a name suddenly because the name of the Kings. Nice.

Based on what? Rhaegar was a product of incest, after all. His parents were full siblings, if that's the objection you're making. Btw, I meant to quote the post where someone mentioned "the dangers of incest" or whatever. Anyway, Rhaegar being the product of incest is my answer to that.

[BearQueen87]

Based on what? Rhaegar was a product of incest, after all. His parents were full siblings, if that's the objection you're making. Btw, I meant to quote the post where someone mentioned "the dangers of incest" or whatever. Anyway, Rhaegar being the product of incest is my answer to that.

I said something about the dangers of incest, if that's what you mean. Rhaegar is the product of incest, but he must have seen/known how miserable Rhaella was. And I wonder if he knew about Bonifer and Rhaella, the idea that Rhaella was forced to marry her brother and how she suffered for it. Rhaegar had a romantic streak in him, IMO, and forcibly marrying two of his children together flies in the face of that (and least in my mind--I admit that marrying for love didn't exactly work out for more recent Targ's either, like Aegon V and his sons)

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor

[UnmaskedLurker]

The major thing could be that Elia can't have anymore kids, the woman Rhaegar though he was making not only the 3 heads of the dragon but also TPTWP. So Rhaegar decided to "take" Lyanna and in doing so, things begin to click in his head. Suddenly the red comet wasn't a sign that he needed to conceive a baby with Elia, it was a sign that he had met/would meet (depending on when the comet was sighted over KL) Lyanna. And then he thinks, oh! She's the ice to my fire! That fits with the prophecy too! And then, okay I need to marry her because 1) prince and 2) love.

:agree: Probably to no one's surprise, I agree with BQ87 (we are the two who have been pushing this theory the hardest). But BQ87 finally put together the answer to RT that I have been trying to formulate in our prior exchanges but did not put it together completely until BQ87 made this point. The prophesy is that the bleeding star will "herald in the coming" of TPTWP, not that TPTWP would be conceived on the day a bleeding star is seen. Most of the signs cannot be known until the baby is born (e.g., born amidst smoke and salt), so Rhaegar would not know whether those signs were met or not at the time he sets out with Lyanna. But the comet could be viewed by Rhaegar as heralding in Jon just as much as Aegon--heralded just means the comet is before--not a specific number of months before.

GRRM lets us know that Rhaegar is capable of changing his mind at least once about who is TPTWP. Why does GRRM give the readers this information? So that we can understand that he could change his mind again. Rhaegar is not the type of person who would have had a child with another woman if Elia could have had more. So when he first met Lyanna, he never would have considered her to possibly be the mother of TPTWP because Rhaegar would never have considered having a child with someone other than his wife, Elia. So the ice/fire connection would not have entered his mind. Only after Elia cannot have a third child does Rhaegar realize that he must have a third child with a different woman. Some have asserted that the HotU vision happened after Elia was told she could no longer have children, which is possible, but I doubt it (given that Aegon was an infant and it likely took some time before the maesters came to this conclusion). But either way, it still could have been before Rhaegar came to a firm decision to have a third child with Lyanna--so his reference to Aegon as TPTWP is not necessarily after he already knew he was going to try to have a child with Lyanna.

The bottom line is that we know Rhaegar believes that the song of TPTWP is ASOIAF. We know that Rhaegar is smart and thinks about the prophesy all the time. How could he not make this ice/fire connection that his child with Lyanna would be a metaphorical merger of ice and fire?

[UnmaskedLurker]

My guess would be that ever dutiful Rhaegar finally realized that Elia's incapability of bearing further children allowed him to follow his heart. He was in love, and the prophecy demanded - in his mind - another child. That is why he took Lyanna. There would have been little reason to rethink it all again, at least not unless there had been other, as of yet unknown signs.

If Rhaegar had changed his mind about the promised prince again, if he expected Lyanna would give birth to him, we should or would have to consider the possibility that Rhaegar was about to discard both Elia and her children. After all, would it not be better if the promised prince would also become king? And would it not also make sense that Lyanna would give birth to all the dragon heads then, not merely to the promised prince?

That is a dangerous chain of thoughts. Rhaegar must have been aware of the Dance and the succession war between Maegor and Aenys' children. He would have act to prevent such a thing, would he not? It would be dangerous if an elder half- brother stood in the way of the savior of the world...

Although Moses, Aaron and Miriam were full siblings and not half-siblings, I think I would analogize to that situation--at least in Rhaegar's mind (not that Rhaegar had access to the Hebrew Bible--but GRRM does). Moses is the youngest sibling--but he is the savior of the Jewish people. Nevertheless, it is Aaron, the older brother, who become the high priest (the Kohane) and it is Aaron's children--not Moses's children--who serve as priests in the Temple. Miriam, the older sister, is instrumental in saving Moses's life as an infant. So these three essentially worked as a team--and the fact that the youngest sibling was the "leader of the rebellion" and "savior of the people" did not create a problem and did not prevent Aaron and his children from being the leaders of the people going forward.

Rhaegar may have been wrong about his ability to get his three children to view themselves as a "team" in the way the Moses, Aaron and Miriam did. But I think it is fairly clear that Rhaegar's intent was to raise his three children to be this "team"--the three heads of the dragon, with Jon in the Moses role and Aegon in the Aaron role (and Ryaenys in the Miriam role).

[J. Stargaryen]

I said something about the dangers of incest, if that's what you mean. Rhaegar is the product of incest, but he must have seen/known how miserable Rhaella was. And I wonder if he knew about Bonifer and Rhaella, the idea that Rhaella was forced to marry her brother and how she suffered for it. Rhaegar had a romantic streak in him, IMO, and forcibly marrying two of his children together flies in the face of that (and least in my mind--I admit that marrying for love didn't exactly work out for more recent Targ's either, like Aegon V and his sons)

Okay right, I did quote it. Here's the thing, there are no perfect solutions. So, if he needs more children than Elia can give him, he has to look somewhere else. Here's the problem with that. Between Rhaegar and Lyanna, the woman upon which he's chosen to father these future children, it's unlikely that they are willing to have bastards. So, if he wants children off of this woman, he has to marry her. But that creates its own problem; rival branches of heirs. So, how do you solve this problem?

Also, I think the incest-as-a-problem is somewhat overblown for the Targaryens. Really, the main problem it has caused is that they haven't formed as many marriage alliances as they could have.

[Anath]

Although Moses, Aaron and Miriam were full siblings and not half-siblings, I think I would analogize to that situation--at least in Rhaegar's mind (not that Rhaegar had access to the Hebrew Bible--but GRRM does). Moses is the youngest sibling--but he is the savior of the Jewish people. Nevertheless, it is Aaron, the older brother, who become the high priest (the Kohane) and it is Aaron's children--not Moses's children--who serve as priests in the Temple. Miriam, the older sister, is instrumental in saving Moses's life as an infant. So these three essentially worked as a team--and the fact that the youngest sibling was the "leader of the rebellion" and "savior of the people" did not create a problem and did not prevent Aaron and his children from being the leaders of the people going forward.

Rhaegar may have been wrong about his ability to get his three children to view themselves as a "team" in the way the Moses, Aaron and Miriam did. But I think it is fairly clear that Rhaegar's intent was to raise his three children to be this "team"--the three heads of the dragon, with Jon in the Moses role and Aegon in the Aaron role (and Ryaenys in the Miriam role).

Rhaegar considering his children to be three heads of the dragon is a possibility -but it's far from clear. Especially if he thought that the PWWP would be his child with Lyanna. It's equally possible that he intended to start making the three heads of the dragon again with Lyanna. It's supported by the fact that Lyanna got three KG all for herself to protect her from basically nothing, Rhaegar got three KG with him because three men would make such a huge difference on a battlefield with thousands of knights, Aerys got a KG because he was the king (Darry told Jaime he was supposed to protect the king and Rhaegar didn't think to soothe the boy's pride by pointing out that he'd be protecting his future king). Rhaegar didn't take Jaime with him because he didn't dare take away his father's crutch, not because he couldn't take him. At this point, Rhaegar did whatever he wanted and Aerys agreed. Makes sense that he would have been able to send Elia and her children away if he chose. He didn't. I take it to mean they were clearly less valuable in his eyes than Lyanna and his future child/ren with her.

Not exactly a team-building attitude.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Okay right, I did quote it. Here's the thing, there are no perfect solutions. So, if he needs more children than Elia can give him, he has to look somewhere else. Here's the problem with that. Between Rhaegar and Lyanna, the woman upon which he's chosen to father these future children, it's unlikely that they are willing to have bastards. So, if he wants children off of this woman, he has to marry her. But that creates its own problem; rival branches of heirs. So, how do you solve this problem?

Also, I think the incest-as-a-problem is somewhat overblown for the Targaryens. Really, the main problem it has caused is that they haven't formed as many marriage alliances as they could have.

I have a couple of potential answers. First, having bastards does not necessarily solve inheritance problems. Blackfyres were bastards (yes, I know, they were legitimized, but someone always worries about them claiming legitimacy) and look at how Cersei wants to kill all of Robert's bastards. So even if Rhaegar thinks the third head could be a bastard (which I am not sure he would have thought would work anyway), it does not really completely solve the succession issues.

As BQ87 has said many times, Rhaegar probably discussed these issues with Elia and she was on board. Even if he did not, Rhaegar really cared about the prophesy more than anything. He would worry about politics later. And if he made the connection, which I believe he did once he knew Elia could not give him a third child, that Lyanna was ice to his fire--and they met at Herrenhal when the red comet was seen--that he decided that Lyanna would give him TPTWP, whose song is ASOIAF. So he could not choose another woman and he had to marry Lyanna to produce a prince--TPTWP.