R+L=J v.98

[jobmartell]

Hard to follow all this, since I haven't read any of the novels.

(are the novels considered part of common knowledge in this forum (or this part of the forum)? Since I've only read the books.)

I'm still surprised when I hear about people not reading D&E. I'm not being an jerkoff here, but after I finished feast I would of read grrm's grocery list if not for the novellas. Actually, I still wanna read his grocery list.

[mambru]

Aerys had no intention of hurting Elia or her children; he was using them to keep Dorne. He only plot to kill everyone after he believes that KG Martell betrayed Rhaegar at the Trident. Until then, he thought Elia and the children were his ace in the hole to keep Dorne on his side.

The suspicions and the intentions and the actions of a sadistic, paranoid, delusional madman are extremely difficult for sane people to predict - because they are usually by definition unreasonable suspicions, intentions, and actions. Aerys began to harbor paranoid suspicions of Rhaegar long before Rhaegar had given him any real reason to believe treason of him - and Aerys hired Varys and put huge power in his hands to protect himself from that phantom danger - even though doing so was ultimately against Aerys' best interests, as it alienated son from father and ultimately helped produce the betrayal that he was trying to prevent. And Aerys has only gone downhill since then.

What's to prevent a madman like Aerys from having unreasonable suspicions of Elia, deciding she's a spy and a tool of either her husband or Dorne against him? You, with the benefit of hindsight, know that ultimately Aerys didn't cause Elia and the kids' death (even though he would have if Jaime hadn't killed him). But you can't retroactively attribute that hindsight to Rhaegar. When Rhaegar was last at King's Landing, he saw the full flowering of Aerys' madness. Aerys had long since started burning people and making his nocturnal visits to Rhaella and abusing her, tearing her flesh with his teeth and overgrown claws. He had murdered Rickard and demanded the heads of Robert and Ned and started a war entirely unreasonably and against his own best interests. Aerys is actively destroying the Targaryen dynasty through that war.

If Rhaegar told himself that even though Aerys was destroying the kingdom for no good reason, physically harming his own sister/wife and had turned against Rhaegar, his own son, for no good reason, Elia was IMMUNE to ever having Aerys' evil eye light on HER unreasonably as a danger, he was actively lying to himself.

And even if Rhaegar believed it, he would know that if he lost at the Trident, ALL bets were off. It's not unheard of for egomaniac Royals to have themselves and their palace subjects killed off rather than fall in the hands of their enemies (even Cersei wanted to do it). Since Rhaegar refused to station even ONE KG near KL to help Elia and his children in the event of disaster, I can only conclude that he was actively closing his eyes to the danger his wife and children faced in the hands of a sadistic paranoid lunatic, to the danger they faced if Rhaegar DID lose the battle - closing his eyes to EVERYTHING but his narcissistic dream that everything would turn out exactly as he had so masterfully planned for the best of everyone.

Because stationing a KG at KL to save his kids if things went wrong would be an ADMISSION that maybe he'd made a selfish, giant mistake that was a disaster for Westeros and a threat to his own children. It would be admitting that he was NOT the masterful hero, just the buffoon of the fates, and I don't think he could admit that to himself. I think denial and ego is the ONLY possible reason he made no plans for the possiblity of his defeat.

Incidentally, BearQueen87, I read The Rogue Prince, and I don't think either of us get cookies. :) That is, I don't think there's absolute proof of either of our pet theories. However I continue to feel that what evidence there is in the story seems to tend more toward my point of view that L and R probably didn't marry - at least not in any way that would be recognized as legal by Westeros. I'll explain why in another post, as it will require a lot of typing of various quotes from the story.

[BearQueen87]

What's to prevent a madman like Aerys from having unreasonable suspicions of Elia, deciding she's a spy and a tool of either her husband or Dorne against him? You, with the benefit of hindsight, know that ultimately Aerys didn't cause Elia and the kids' death (even though he would have if Jaime hadn't killed him). But you can't retroactively attribute that hindsight to Rhaegar.

Unless Rhaegar, who is a smart chap by all accounts, figures that Elia and his children are safe because of Dorne. He knows Aerys is a madman but he's counting on Aerys no pissing off Dorne. It's not like R said, "fuck my kids and my wife. If they get hurt, they get hurt."

When Rhaegar was last at King's Landing, he saw the full flowering of Aerys' madness. Aerys had long since started burning people and making his nocturnal visits to Rhaella and abusing her, tearing her flesh with his teeth and overgrown claws. He had murdered Rickard and demanded the heads of Robert and Ned and started a war entirely unreasonably and against his own best interests. Aerys is actively destroying the Targaryen dynasty through that war.

Yup, and Rhaegar realizes his errors and that he should have done something long ago and he plans to do something about it when he gets home from the Trident. Humans err. He sees how far Aerys had fallen, which is an indication that when he left, Aerys was paranoid and dangerous but maybe not to such an extent as to place Elia in danger. And we don't know how much Rhaegar knew about Aerys' visits to Rhaella or what Rhaella was telling Rhaegar. She's another very silent figure in all this.

And even if Rhaegar believed it, he would know that if he lost at the Trident, ALL bets were off. It's not unheard of for egomaniac Royals to have themselves and their palace subjects killed off rather than fall in the hands of their enemies (even Cersei wanted to do it). Since Rhaegar refused to station even ONE KG near KL to help Elia and his children in the event of disaster, I can only conclude that he was actively closing his eyes to the danger his wife and children faced in the hands of a sadistic paranoid lunatic, to the danger they faced if Rhaegar DID lose the battle - closing his eyes to EVERYTHING but his narcissistic dream that everything would turn out exactly as he had so masterfully planned for the best of everyone.

There are four KG at KL when Rhaegar gets back to KL. Jaime is left behind to guard everyone, including Elia and the children. Had Rhaegar brought Hightower or Dayne or Whent home, they would have gone to the Trident with him, not stayed in KL. The Red Keep also had tons of household guards, including Elia's own.

Because stationing a KG at KL to save if kids if things went wrong would be an ADMISSION that maybe he'd made a selfish, giant mistake that was a disaster for Westeros and a threat to his own children. It would be admitting that he was NOT them masterful hero, just the buffoon of the fates, and I don't think he could admit that to himself I think denial and ego is the ONLY possible reason he made no plans for the possiblity of his defeat.

See what I said directly above.

Incidentally, BearQueen87, I read The Rogue Prince, and I don't think either of us get cookies. :) That is, I don't think there's absolute proof of either of our pet theories. However I continue to feel that what evidence there is in the story seems to tend more toward my point of view that L and R probably didn't marry - at least not in any way that would be recognized as legal by Westeros. I'll explain why in another post, as it will require a lot of typing of various quotes from the story.

V. 97 of this thread was all about marriage, so go ahead. LOL. You're not going to convince me they weren't married but might as well do the debate again.

[mambru]

Unless Rhaegar, who is a smart chap by all accounts, figures that Elia and his children are safe because of Dorne. He knows Aerys is a madman but he's counting on Aerys no pissing off Dorne. It's not like R said, "fuck my kids and my wife. If they get hurt, they get hurt."

Rhaegar thought it would be safe to cut out with Lyanna and let Aerys deal with the political fallout, trusting that Aerys would act reasonably and in his own and the kingdom's best interests. Aerys strangled the Lord Paramount's heir and then fried the Lord Paramount to death, and unsatisfied with this, demanded the heads of two more innocent Lord Paramounts, offending yet another Lord Paramount who was honor bound to protect them and ANOTHER Lord Paramount who was bound by betrothal to align with them. Aerys did this even though it would "piss off" the North, the Riverlands, the Vale and the Stormlands against him...it started a war.

After all that, if Rhaegar decided that Elia and his kids are SAFE with Aerys, because surely NOW Aerys has learned his lesson and will sensibly avoid "pissing off" Dorne the way he already "pissed off" the Lannister Westerlands, the North, the Vale, the Stormlands, and the Riverlands - even though Rhaegar can SEE with his own eyes how much worse Aerys has grown since he left months ago - then Rhaegar has inherited more than a little of his father's self delusion.

And incidentally, Aerys openly declared Elia a hostage to Lewyn Martell before Rhaegar ever arrived at King's Landing - so Rhaegar's got no excuse for ignoring the fact that Elia (and possibly her children) are under threat if the Martells do anything that Aerys' paranoid unbalanced mind might consider a threat (even if it actually isn't). Therefore, any idea that they are "safe" with Aerys is pure denial.

[BearQueen87]

Rhaegar thought it would be safe to cut out with Lyanna and let Aerys deal with the political fallout, trusting that Aerys would act reasonably and in his own and the kingdom's best interests. Aerys strangled the Lord Paramount's heir and then fried the Lord Paramount to death, and unsatisfied with this, demanded the heads of two more innocent Lord Paramounts, offending yet another Lord Paramount who was honor bound to protect them and ANOTHER Lord Paramount who was bound by betrothal to align with them. Aerys did this even though it would "piss off" the North, the Riverlands, the Vale and the Stormlands against him...it started a war.

1) How do you know Rhaegar didn't have some sort of plan in place? It's very out of character for him to not have a plan

2) All those things Aerys did, happened AFTER Rhaegar and Lyanna left together. And they happened because Brandon was a gallant fool. Brandon was the element Rhaegar could not predict.

We have zero idea what Aerys (or Rhaegar) would have done had Brandon not gone off to KL and demanded that the crown prince come out and die.

After all that, if Rhaegar decided that Elia and his kids are SAFE with Aerys, because surely NOW Aerys has learned his lesson and will sensibly avoid pissing off Dorne the way he pissed off the Lannister Westerlands, the North, the Vale, the Stormlands, and the Riverlands - even though Rhaegar can SEE with his own eyes how much worse Aerys has grown since he left months ago - then Rhaegar has inherited more than a little of his father's self delusion.

Please provide evidence of when Rhaegar found out about all these events you just described. Did he learn when Hightower came and told him to go home...and then Rhaegar in fact when home? Did he learn before and if yes, please provide evidence that Rhaegar didn't consider dashing off immediately but was stopped by, say, a sick pregnant Lyanna? Did he learn on the way to KL?

And incidentally, Aerys openly declared Elia a hostage to Lewyn Martell before Rhaegar ever arrived at King's Landing - so Rhaegar's got no excuse for ignoring the fact that Elia (and possibly her children) are under threat if the Martells do anything that Aerys' paranoid unbalanced mind might consider a threat (even if it actually isn't).

Aerys said that to KG Martell at the height of the war. Before then, did Aerys tell KG Martell that he better not do anything or else Elia and her kids would pay the price?

[lareine]

So, your argument is that Rhaegar was smart enough to realize that he needed a son with Lyanna, but that he didn't use any of this brainpower to consider the potential ramifications of starting another branch of heirs? Sure, prophecy was more important to him, but it's not like his team of toddlers were going to save the world. They would have to grow up a bit first. During which time the political aspect would be important.

I couldn't agree with you more. If Rhaegar truly was as intelligent as the characters in the series have described him, he definitely would have had some plan devised to mitigate the political ramifications. What these plans were and whether they were smart or not, I don't think any of us can say right now. They could have been brilliant and were somehow thwarted by his foes or they could have been well-intentioned but politically naive and destined to fail.

But even if he did run off impulsively with Lyanna, he had to be intelligent and learned enough in the history of his own family and realm to know that by taking a second wife and starting a second branch of the family, he was creating a politically volatile situation for his children. It would've required delicate and skillful handling to pull off successfully if he wanted his children to grow up in a stable familial and political environment. His three heads can't defeat the forces of darkness together if they're too busy fighting each other.

Also, this idea that Rhaegar definitely realized that he was fire and Lyanna was ice is somewhat dubious, imo. He didn't seem to think anything like that was the case when he named Aegon the PtwP and SoIaF. Maybe that interpretation was not for Rhaegar to make, but for the audience. It's possible that, as an in-story character, Rhaegar never made the symbolic connection. That in story, the SoIaF means something else, like a battle or war. And that there are other, symbolic interpretations for the readers to apply.

It's clear that Rhaegar linked the concepts of PtwP and the SOIAF to each other and to Aegon, but I think you're right that it's still very ambiguous what exactly Rhaegar thought the SOIAF was in universe. The fact that he brings it up in response to Elia's request that he write their new son a song on his harp does make it seem as though he thought of the SOIAF as an epic ballad of the PtwP'S battle against the darkness, but we as readers can see that it could also have a variety of different meanings.

I would also like to know more about the concept of the three-headed dragon and what Rhaegar and other Targaryen's thought it was. Did it remain the same or change over the centuries? How did they relate it to the PtwP and the SOIAF?

The Targaryen/Valyarian description of humans as a dragons seems to be a multi-facited one. For example, all Targaryen's may be described as being 'blood of the dragon,' but only certain extraordinary Targaryen's seem to be singled out and described as 'true dragons' in their own right. Since princes didn't exist in the Valyarian Freehold, was the Valyrian concept of the 'dragonlord' the nearest equivalent of the word in their language and culture? How would that then effect their understanding of the prophecy? Would legitimate birth matter to them? Viserys was legitimate and recognized as a prince, but neither Dany (nor Jorah for that matter) considered him to be 'the last dragon." Daemon Blackfyre was a legitimized bastard, but he's an extraordinary Targaryen, a true example of a 'dragon.' I'd really love to learn more about all of this.

Knowing that we saw a red comet right before the pyre in AGoT, I'm wondering if it doesn't indicate who the heads of the dragon are. If that's true, I don't think we've seen Jon's comet yet.

That is a really interesting idea! Perhaps a red comet will appear after Jon is reborn from his near-death stabbing.

[Lord Varys]

Well, there would have to be three comets, no? If they heraled all the dragon heads, not just the promised prince... Who the hell is supposed to be the third, by the way? My best guess is Tyrion.

Considering the scale of the story I'd suggest that the core mistake all the in-universe searchers for the savior have made up to this point is looking for a single savior. We have no idea whatsoever what the original prophet foreseeing the coming of the promised prince actually saw, said, or wrote down.

If Jon was the promised prince, he would better have the dragons. If Dany was the savior, she should better be at the Wall. Neither is the case, so my best guess is that these two have to work together with the third head to save the world.

The thought that Rhaegar did, apparently, not realize that Lyanna was destined to bring forth the promised prince when he first met her at Harrenhal, but decided that this was the case after Aegon's birth is, frankly, ridiculous. We would have to assume that Rhaegar was about as fickle as his forebear Aenys in very important matters (savior of the world stuff). Rhaegar's own biographical preoccupation does also not make it seem likely that he considered the role of Elia and women in general in this whole thing. If he thought, or was inclined to think, that a union between ice and fire would bring forth the savior of the world, one should assume that he would have pushed for a marriage between him and the daughter of Lord Rickard Stark when he first started to doubt that he was the promised prince. That must have happened some time before his marriage, or else he would never have considered to reinterpret the prophecy in favor of his unborn son after he saw or heard about the comet.

[Mithras]

If Jon was the promised prince, he would better have the dragons. If Dany was the savior, she should better be at the Wall. Neither is the case, so my best guess is that these two have to work together with the third head to save the world.

I hope George does not do that because that would be a cheap Hollywood movie. I think Dany will never fight the Others and the only reason she comes to the Wall will be to destroy Jon because by that time he will declare that he is a Targaryen and "order" Dany to bring her forces to the Wall. Dany will not suffer another "false" pretender after dealing with fAegon.

[Attitude]

Well, there would have to be three comets, no? If they heraled all the dragon heads, not just the promised prince... Who the hell is supposed to be the third, by the way? My best guess is Tyrion.

Who knows? Maybe the third head is being born at castle black at this very moment and we will see a bright comet at the start of tWoW.

[Lord Varys]

So a toddler is going to fight the Others?

Great!

Paper Weaver,

If the Others will turn out to be a real threat, there is little to no chance that Jon will still be at the Wall when or if Dany arrives.

And the thought that Dany will ever consider Jon to be a pretender or a rival is, frankly, ridiculous, since there is little to no chance that he'll ever command the manpower to threaten Daenerys.

Not to mention the fact that he has foresworn any rights to crowns and lands.

Honestly, I don't even see much potential for a second Dance between Dany, Aegon, Euron, and Stannis, since the winter and the Others should make warfare much more difficult and eventually completely impossible. Even more importantly, there a very big hints - Marwyn, Sam in Oldtown - that the Others will turn out to be a major threat for everyone. Thus the very thought that the usual Game of Thrones can continue until the very end does not make all that much sense.

[Attitude]

So a toddler is going to fight the Others?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant to se 'reborn' and was talking about Jon. If he, like AA, will require a 'rebirth' (literally or not), this might be the time it happens.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I've issues with the Azor Ahai Reborn has to be reborn theory. The original Azor Ahai wasn't 'reborn' either, as far as we know, so we should rather assume that the reborn thing refers to the rebirth - or, rather, the birth - of a hero or heroes who will fight the same or a similar fight than the original hero.

[Attitude]

Well, I've issues with the Azor Ahai Reborn has tok be reborn theory. The original Azor Ahai wasn't 'reborn' either, as far as we know, so we should rather assume that the reborn thing refers to the rebirth - or, rather, the birth - of a hero or heroes who will fight the same or a similar fight than the original hero.

Exactly as I stated:

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant to se 'reborn' and was talking about Jon. If he, like AA, will require a 'rebirth' (literally or not), this might be the time it happens.

I already here state that the rebirth might be literally, or not. I don't believe in a literally rebirth of Jon (Original AA prolly not either), if you wanted to ask that. A 'figurally rebirth is possible IMO, something like; he lives, the NW gets destroyed because of riots and he is 'reborn' as a free man again, since there is no NW so no vow to keep. Or maybe something completely different

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to the whole red comet thing--I think I may be confused. Rhaenys_Targaryen in post # 126 makes this point and I was just following up assuming it to be true, but I admit I might be confused. I thought something was seen at HH around the time Aegon was conceived. Was there, and if so, what was it?

I didn't say anything about the comet having been seen at Harrenhal... as the quote that Jon Stargaryen provided showed, the comet was seen at KL.

Do note that maester Aemon never mentions that Rhaegar had seen the comet above KL, only that a comet had been sighted above KL.

Thank you very much for finding the exact quote--sorry about my confusion. My main point remains to RT (and perhaps to you) that the prophesy does not say that the bleeding star would be on the day of conception--just that it would herald the coming of TPTWP. Just as the smoke and tears (fire at SH and tears for the dead), which seemed to be clear indications of Rhaegar as TPTWP did not stop Rhaegar from changing his view to Aegon--comet on day of conception would not prevent Rhaegar from changing his view to Jon. The comet still could herald in the coming of Jon, who still would be born only a couple of years after the comet. And Jon would be the union of ice and fire--not Aegon.

I can see how the red comet heralds the coming of TPTWP.

Rhaegar sees a comet.. Aegon is born 9 months later, Jon is born two years later... Jon would then not be the logical conclusion..

Not until after he learns that Elia can't have more children. Then things about the prophecy he thought he knew begin to get reexamined and reinterpreted.

That R changed his mind about Aegon being TPTWP and that Lyanna was the ice to his fire, thus creating TPTWP

Targaryens have been actively associated with fire (it is in their words "Fire and Blood" after all).

Though I get why people associate Starks with Ice, no one in story has ever associated Starks with Ice, for as far as I can recall (if they have, please point me to the quotes :) ).

But another question would be, if Lyanna was the ice to Rhaegars fire, why did he wait 1 year before acting on it? Lyanna was at Harrenhal, Rhaegar was at Harrenhal. If Rhaegar had made the connection of Stark=Ice, I am fire, Ice+Fire=Prince, then you'd think that he would act immediately, as a prince was needed as soon as possible (the longer you have to prepare him for saving the world, after all).

Again, the question I was trying to get an answer to is not where Aegon was born--but rather whether there is any evidence of smoke/salt at his birth. I take it you don't know the answer any better than J. Star?

If my theory is correct and Aegon was born at Dragonstone, than his salt would be the same salt as is attributed to Dany: the salty seawater around Dragonstone.

But at the same time, we don't have any salt and smoke at Jon's birth either.. You could say that salt=tears.. Yet we don't know if Lyanna cried (since birth is painful, I'd say that the possibility she actually cried is rather big.. )

The way I see the scenario, there are two possibitlities:

• Scenario 1: The Red Comet is sighted above KL shortly before the Tourney at Harrenhal. Thus causes Rhaegar to expect the Prince that was Promised to soon arrive, and indeed, shortly after Harrenhal (or during, who knows), Elia discovers she's pregnant. Rhaegar expects a boy, and indeed, a boy is born: Aegon. His is the song of ice and fire.

Scenario 2: The Red Comet is sighted above KL shortly after the Tourney at Harrenhal. A little while later, Elia discovers she is pregnant. Rhaegar expects the Promised Prince, and thus expects a boy to be born: and indeed, Elia birth a boy: Aegon.

In scenario 2, there is no connection between fire and ice to make for Rhaegar, if Lyanna does indeed stand for Ice.

In scenario 1, there is room for such a connection to be made. Rhaegar recently saw the comet, after all, and doesn't know yet that Elia is pregnant (if Aegon was indeed conceived before Harrenhal, it must have been shortly, as with her delicate health, the trouble with Rhaenys' birth, and the lack of an heir, Elia wouldn't have been allowed to travel to Harrenhal, most likely, if she had known that she was pregnant). If there is time to make a connection that leads him to believe that the Promised Prince will be gotten from somewhere other than his marriage, than the time is now. Rhaegar meets Lyanna, and even crowns her the QoLaB, yet leaves it at that. He goes home, learns of Elia's pregnancy, gets his boy, and learns that Elia can't have more children. In the very short timeframe between Aegon's birth and Lyanna's disappearance, Rhaegar writes to maester Aemon, stating that Aegon is the promised prince.. Yet, by now, he would know that Elia is not able to birth a third child. Yet we still see him actively believing it to be Aegon, while writing his letter.

Of course Rhaegar could have changed his mind.. But he would need a strong sign as a reason, and Lyanna = Ice would have been known to him for a year by then.. Had that been his reason for changing his mind, tha wouldn't he have realised this before Aegon's birth? What could have been the reason that Aegon was no longer believed to be the prince, as he meets criteria that a child by Lyanna cannot have met (because there has not yet been a conception/birth).

Also, upon Aegon's birth, Rhaegar states that "his is the song...", not that "he is the song". If the song of ice and fire is the promised prince, than Rhaegar wouldn´t have said "his is" originally, right?

[Maia]

Or, it could be that the red comets are meant to herald potential saviors. Maybe Dany got one because Aegon was killed. Also, as I previously stated, I'm not sure we've seen Jon's comet yet. Further, if one is coming to herald him, I'm not even sure it will be red.

That is my hope for how prophecies work in ASOIAF as well. I.e., that they are mutable. That it is not just the matter of people interpreting the things wrongly, but that the prophecies/visions can come about in different ways. Like, in the House of the Undying Dany sees "futures that might have been" among other things, like her and Drogo's son, all grown.

Future being set in stone would destroy most of what makes ASOIAF so great, IMHO.

Because a different woman could be a mother of his dragon--but he fell in lover with Lyanna and she was Ice to his Fire, so he would conclude that she was destined to be mother of TPTWP.

The thing is - the whole "his is the song of Ice and Fire" may not even be a part of any prophecy, but just Rhaegar's poetic description of PTwP's destiny. IMHO, it is given far too much weight in these discussions, even to the extent that actually known parts of the prophecy are getting discarded for no good reason.

We have confirmations for other requirements actually being parts of various prophecies: "born from smoke and salt" from both Aemon and Melisandre. Hatching dragons, ditto. "Bleeding star(s)", interpreted as comets from both Aemon and Mel, and Rhaegar seemed to agree with it too, as he changed his belief that he was TPTWP to Aegon being it. The Promised Prince coming from the blood of Aerys and Rhaella prophecy was the whole reason that they were married.

As such, it makes zero sense to me that Rhaegar would have blatantly disregarded confirmed parts of the prophecy in favor of something that was only peripherally involved in it, if at all, and suddenly thought that Lyanna's child would be the Prince. If he thought that way, he would have moved Lyanna to Dragonstone, so that her child could be "born from smoke and salt".

Now, Aegon very well might have been born on Dragonstone - Rhaegar was Prince of it, after all, and his relationship with Aerys was very strained at the time of Aegon's birth, which might have prompted him to stay away from court, in his own domain, like Rhaenyra and her family did before him. And there was a comet on the day of Aegon's conception. From what we know about the actual prophecies, Aegon fit the bill far better than Jon.

BTW, speaking of "bleeding stars", it occurs to me that Dany's comet in particular, the one that first appeared on the night of Drogo's pyre and dragons hatching was literally named "The Bleeding Star" by the Dothraki and that many characters, from Cressen to Old Nan associated it with blood.

[Ygrain]

Too much debating here for me to adress the individual posts, so let me lump it all together.

When Rhaegar says "he, it is a response to a request for a real song, which, IMHO, implies that Rhaegar takes the meaning of "song" literally here. Knowing what we do, us readers supply here metphorical reading which Rhaegar may have been totally unaware of, or at least, unaware of at that point. There is not much time left between Aegon's birth and the abduction but we can conclude that some time after Aegon's birth, Rhaegar was in touch with Aemon, because Aemon knows that Rhaegar believed his son was PTWP. Aemon is also the one who read the Jade Compendium, so it may have been him who provided a piece of puzzle which made Rhaegar reconsider again, or which turned his attention towards Lyanna.

As for the Starks not being connected to Ice...remind me again, what is the name of their ancestral blade? :P And which family was the Night King from?

- Going on a tangent: Stannis + Mel = fire-fire. Night King + pale woman = ice-ice. Hm. Is this leading anywhere?

[sj4iy]

Ugh, too many metaphors first thing in the morning XD

Martin just needs to publish the next book already!

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Too much debating here for me to adress the individual posts, so let me lump it all together.

When Rhaegar says "he, it is a response to a request for a real song, which, IMHO, implies that Rhaegar takes the meaning of "song" literally here. Knowing what we do, us readers supply here metphorical reading which Rhaegar may have been totally unaware of, or at least, unaware of at that point. There is not much time left between Aegon's birth and the abduction but we can conclude that some time after Aegon's birth, Rhaegar was in touch with Aemon, because Aemon knows that Rhaegar believed his son was PTWP. Aemon is also the one who read the Jade Compendium, so it may have been him who provided a piece of puzzle which made Rhaegar reconsider again, or which turned his attention towards Lyanna.

As for the Starks not being connected to Ice...remind me again, what is the name of their ancestral blade? :P And which family was the Night King from?

- Going on a tangent: Stannis + Mel = fire-fire. Night King + pale woman = ice-ice. Hm. Is this leading anywhere?

Good points all, you got there first on the bold ;)

Wrt comets, everyone should remember that the prophesy mentions not a comet, but a red star bleeding. A distinction that I believe has great significance (hint-- see link in my sig :p)

[FrozenFire3]

Good points all, you got there first on the bold ;)

Wrt comets, everyone should remember that the prophesy mentions not a comet, but a red star bleeding. A distinction that I believe has great significance (hint-- see link in my sig :P)

The voice of reason ;)

Btw so waiting for episode 04...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As for the Starks not being connected to Ice...remind me again, what is the name of their ancestral blade? :P And which family was the Night King from?

We, as readers associate the Starks with Ice.. in part because of Ice, the sword. But as I asked, do the characters in-universe?