R+L=J v.98

[BearQueen87]

That was my thought too, because its very curious indeed that Stannis should retain the seat even with the birth of Joffrey. Correct me if I'm wrong as its been awhile, but didn't Stannis do some of his own detective work, but got out of Dodge before the shit hit the fan as opposed to Ned who felt the need to have a public intervention? :shocked:

Stannis went along with Jon Arryn to see Robert's bastards, if that's what you mean.

[Alia of the knife]

Stannis went along with Jon Arryn to see Robert's bastards, if that's what you mean.

Right, which means he seems to have come to the same conclusion at least that Cersei's brood was not Roberts brood.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

(MOMMA'S BABY, BUT PAPPA'S MAYBE)

Lyanna is Jon's I'll bite but besides the incident a the Tourney at Harrenhal please show me a reason that Rhaegar is Jon's father that cannot be explained away.

[Disputatious]

Right, which means he seems to have come to the same conclusion at least that Cersei's brood was not Roberts brood.

He suspected and asked Jon Arryn to investigate: the idea being that Robert would pay heed to what Lord Arryn would have to say, but maybe not to accusations coming from Stannis himself.

Unfortunately for Stannis, Lord Arryn was poisoned before he could convey what he had discovered to Stannis: he probably did point out to Stannis the close resemblance of Gendry to King Robert. (Brienne later thinks that Gendry resembles Renly.) But the important additional evidence from the book about the great houses does not get passed on.

[Alia of the knife]

And I take it Shireen is also "black of hair?,"

[BearQueen87]

(MOMMA'S BABY, BUT PAPPA'S MAYBE)

Lyanna is Jon's I'll bite but besides the incident a the Tourney at Harrenhal please show me a reason that Rhaegar is Jon's father that cannot be explained away.

You suspect Lyanna was having sex with another man besides the one who supposedly kidnapped her nine months before giving birth?

[Alia of the knife]

Maybe Howlin' How is "the most interesting man in the world. "

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Right, which means he seems to have come to the same conclusion at least that Cersei's brood was not Roberts brood.

Yeah. But I think the clue is more meta-textual. It's a hint to the readers that Stannis, who still holds Dragonstone, is Robert's rightful heir. Stannis doesn't think, "Wait a sec, I still hold Dragonstone. Joffrey's a bastard!"

If that makes sense.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah. But I think the clue is more meta-textual. It's a hint to the readers that Stannis, who still holds Dragonstone, is Robert's rightful heir. Stannis doesn't think, "Wait a sec, I still hold Dragonstone. Joffrey's a bastard!"

If that makes sense.

Yes definitely.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yeah. But I think the clue is more meta-textual. It's a hint to the readers that Stannis, who still holds Dragonstone, is Robert's rightful heir. Stannis doesn't think, "Wait a sec, I still hold Dragonstone. Joffrey's a bastard!"

If that makes sense.

It definitely makes sense now that you mention it. GRRM hid it in plain sight by providing a perfectly plausible alternative; the Baratheon dynasty wasn't operating by the same rules as the Targaryens had. But yeah, it actually seems like a really obvious meta-textual hint looking back at it. Nice catch.

[Disputatious]

And I take it Shireen is also "black of hair?,"

She has the blue eyes of the Barratheons, but there is no description of her hair in the passage in which we meet her (in ACOK). Perhaps later?

[Disputatious]

Maybe Howlin' How is "the most interesting man in the world. "

Yeah, but does he drink beer?

[Ygrain]

(MOMMA'S BABY, BUT PAPPA'S MAYBE)

Lyanna is Jon's I'll bite but besides the incident a the Tourney at Harrenhal please show me a reason that Rhaegar is Jon's father that cannot be explained away.

So, who do you think fathered Jon on Lyanna and how does it fit with Lyanna being several times depicted with the crown of blue roses that the got from Rhaegar?

[Prince of the North]

I think the ToJ is a strong hint toward R+L in its own right. It was Rhaegar's favorite place.

[UtherSnow]

His own dragon :)

As for my Avatar, I've always been partial to Giger, and in my head always imagined the North to be somewhat alien and foreboding, with its own dark beauty.

Many of Gigers female characters were based upon his lover who died when she was young, so when I saw this, it made me think of Lyannas tomb and statue, especially the alien majesty of the look.

Have you seen any of the artwork done for Lyanna? Given that age changes stonework, as noted while different people who went into the tombs, it's possible to see this. Somewhere around, I had a reference book with many Giger images in the process of completion. There was definite fascination, and correctness, with this particular striking image.

Jon on a dragon is interesting prospect, and a part of his revealing. Even if it was to be one that Dany's mothered, once he forms a bond, he would become its rider. If you go read 'The Princess and The Queen', it is clearly stated to be so. The dragon has plenty of say in the matter before it allows anyone close. Dragon's are not horses, as someone says.

There was a mystery surrounding one dragon and its rider. Netty/Nettles & Sheepstealer were last seen heading away from Maidenpool, out over the Bay of Crabs. Guess what - Netty was a bastard too, and apparently bedded Daemon as well. Sheepstelaer is described as ugly 'mud brown'. That colouring ought to provide camouflage. It'd be something is this dragon, as old as it may be, was still around. Perhaps there are more eggs somewhere, from this dragon. That might also explain this dragon's disappearance.

[J. Stargaryen]

(MOMMA'S BABY, BUT PAPPA'S MAYBE)

Lyanna is Jon's I'll bite but besides the incident a the Tourney at Harrenhal please show me a reason that Rhaegar is Jon's father that cannot be explained away.

I guess anything can be explained away, depending on how ridiculous a person is willing to be. However, In Eddard I, Ned remembers that Lyanna's room smelled of "blood and roses." The blood is from her bed of blood, aka, birthing bed, and we learn in Ned's last chapter (XV) that she was given roses by Rhaegar at HH. With "blood and roses," GRRM is combining two key concepts: Lyanna giving birth, and; Lyanna possessing roses, which is reminiscent of Rhaegar crowning her at HH. So that's actually a pretty big hint right there. The trick is you have to have read Ned's final chapter to recognize the big clue in his first chapter.

Conclusion: blood and roses means Lyanna had a baby, and the father is Rhaegar.

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

- AGoT, Eddard I

The (formerly blue) roses being dead and black ties into the imagery and language of Ser Loras at the TotH, which is used to call to mind the tourney at HH and the ToJ. [T]wining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. - Eddard VII. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. - Eddard X. So Ned associated blue and black rose petals with the ToJ, which are the same colors Ser Loras decorated his silver armor in. Odd, when you think about the colors of House Tyrell.

There is a small addition to the Ser Loras analysis here. And Ygritte had a nice catch, which we think ties in here. To which I added something small here.

[UtherSnow]

A question on status since we are talking about Dragons Stone.

With Roberts ascension to the crown, did his brothers become Princes?

I ask only because in the introduction sleeve in CoK, Arya is referred to as a "Princess on the run." Now maybe its a reinstatement of her hereditary title post-dragons, the North seceding and Robb becoming king, but I didn't know if there was any title equivalent to "Duke" if Stannis and Renly were not Princes.

Look at the titles of those on The Small Council. Under Robert: Master of ships = Stannis; Master of laws = Renly. Master of coin = Littlefinger; Master of whisperers = Varys. Selmy is there as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Grand Maester Pycelle. Ned takes over from Jon Arryn as Hand.

Coming back to Arya's reference, 'Princess on the run' declares her to be a high value hostage. It is in line with Ned's status as Hand, even though he's declared a traitor. Shireen is also referred to as princess, it's not a slip of the tongue by Davos, or 'play-title'.

History? Clearly defined from 1066 onwards. Medieval England - Dukes were the chief advisors to Monarchs, with associated lands and seat (= House). Dukes of York & Lancaster figure prominently during Middle Ages.

[wolfmaid7]

It's a mis-quote of sorts from a video - Grrm was talking through Mel's viewpoint.

Here's the source I think, it's at the end...

ETA Stargaryen said it first

Thanks Yolkboy.

[Black Crow]

I think the ToJ is a strong hint toward R+L in its own right. It was Rhaegar's favorite place.

That's probably going a little far... :cool4:

This is the one and only reference to it in all of the books:

. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory

An association with him certainly [note the lower case], but his "favorite place"?

[UtherSnow]

Something keeps bugging me about the presence of THREE Kingsguard with Lyanna. That's Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower; Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Arthur Dayne. The White Bull and The Sword of the Morning, with.... Batman.

When Hightower's order was to find Rhaegar as the war (the rebellion) wasn't going well, isn't it his duty to ride back with said prince, thereby protecting him as LC ought to? So what if Rheagar's ordered him, the king's order is higher. Rheagar would know this, even if he's in agreement regarding Aerys' sanity.

Some maths required here. At ToJ, how many cairns did Ned have built for the dead? Eight.

Three are the Kingsguard, as named above.

FIve are Ned's companions - Lord William Dustin; Ser Mark Ryswell; Martyn Cassell; Theo Wull; Ethan Glover

One is missing. If not a cairn, as such, something else ought to be there. Where's Lyanna's memorial?

Tearing down the tower shows his regard of Rhaegar's action. It was no longer a tower of joy.

It is known that's where she died, in Ned's arms, 'giving up her hold on life'. Ned brought her bones back to Winterfell.

Considerations - Lyanna's body would've deteriorated long before reaching Winterfell, and that wouldn't be fitting. Wouldn't a memorial hold the flesh of the remains, or the ashes? We're talking about Ned here, with Howland Reed to make him see sense.

There's another point of honouring the fallen too. Brave men died on both sides.

Given the regard Ned had for Dayne, it makes more of a case for marking Lyanna's place with a noble man.

There was something in some words Robert said to Ned. “She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean.”

Did Ned know this would be Robert's wish? It's most probable, had events been different, this would be. While there's no fruit tree mentioned where ToJ once stood, the rest seems to match. Mind you, there were blue roses instead of a fruit tree.

It's just a trivial thought. Loose end, perhaps. A minor error by GRRM? He's human, apparently.