Is fAegon the last of the Blackfyre line of Targaryens? If so...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Who could start a war then--his own wife?

My ex would war me...

But in that case, his children would have a claim via Dany, a Targaryen, not his father.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

no proof

Guess what there is nothing backing it either.

[UnmaskedLurker]

In the TV show, I don't remember Daemon Blackfyre or anything related to Blackfyre Rebellions being mentioned. Aerion OTOH was mentioned by Joffrey in Season 3. ;)

Well, (f)Aegon has not been introduced yet either. There is plenty of time to mention the Blackfyre Rebellion prior to or around the time of the introduction of (f)Aegon in the HBO show.

[UnmaskedLurker]

My ex would war me...

But in that case, his children would have a claim via Dany, a Targaryen, not his father.

Well, if (f)Aegon continues to rule as king after the big "reveal" that he is BF, I think most would consider the descent to be through him--but that really is semantics as the children of (f)Aegon and Dany would be, obviously, the children of BOTH (f)Aegon and Dany.

ETA: Divorce is not so easy in Westros, so I am assuming Dany would be stuck with (f)Aegon.

[TheLastStark]

1)No proof Aegon is fake You are right, just guess at this point. but there is no proof he is real either.

2)If the plan does indeed predate Aegons birth( and for arguments sake I'll say he is a Blackfyre), that would be a pretty stupid plan to have with no Blackfyre to put on the throne, unless the plan is to just get the Targaryens out of power. If they have a female Blackfyre, they can have a child pretty soon after they need one. Their goal is simple, destroy the Targaryens, and put a Blackfyre on the Throne.

3)Everyone seems to forget this little fact, Blackfyre = Targaryen. The Blackfyres are Targaryens, the founder was a king's bastard(whose mother was also a Targaryen), then he got legitimized(hence he was a Targaryen), then decided to change his surname to Blackfyre(the same name of the sword that was given to him by his father the king, which is also the same sword Aegon the conquer used) and thought that he was given that sword because his father wanted him to rule instead of his true born son, hence the Blackfyre rebellions.

Ask a Targaryen if a Blackfyre is a Targaryen. Ask a Blackfyre if they are the same as a Targaryen. They have fought each other 5 or 6 times. If they are all the same what the reason for the wars? The Blackfyres think they are the rightful rulers and the Targaryens think they are, They do not think they are the same thing

4)You can't extinguish the Targaryens without killing all the Blackfyres too, again a stupid plan if that is their plan.

Not true at all, there is a reason they use the Blackfyre name instead of the Targaryen name.

1) Your right, Vary's telling a dying man Aegon is real is not proof, because he would lie to someone dying man for what reason?

2)Putting a Blackfyre on the throne and calling he/she a Targaryen just keeps the Targaryens in power.

3)No Daemon thought his father wanted him to rule instead of the true born son. And no matter what they answer, the real answer is still yes.

4)Calling a dog a bear doesn't change what it really is, does it? If so I'm wolverine from x-men.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Another thing if Aegon was the son of Rhaegar and Elia,shouldn t his eyes be a darker shade of purple?

Elia was described as having dark eyes,Rhaegar eyes were so purple,they bordered on black,get my point?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Calling a bird a dolphin doesn't change what it really is no matter how much I believe it. So yes it is stupid. Deamon was never the rightful king by all the laws in westeros, but of course they would over look that little detail. Because what are the laws for if they don't help you in your own goals. But I guess if I believe that I am a vampire strongly enough it will happen, according to what "they believe". Blackfyre=Targaryen no matter which way you slice it, eliminating all the Targaryens would include killing all Blackfyres. Believing one way or the other doesn't change the facts.

If a Blackfyre and a Targaryen are the same thing, then why even pretend to be Aegon, why not just call him a Blackfyre and say the Crown is rightfully his? The people who would back him as a Targaryen would also back him as a Blackfyre since they are the same thing. Right?

And they are not creating a virus that kills all Targaryens and they forgot they are one too so they die as well... what bad planning!

No, they are running a sword thru somebody, if they say they killed all of the Targaryens and only Blackfyres are left... are they going to start killing themselves? No, they stop because they did what they set out to do.

[TheLastStark]

Another thing if Aegon was the son of Rhaegar and Elia,shouldn t his eyes be a darker shade of purple?

Elia was described as having dark eyes,Rhaegar eyes were so purple,they bordered on black,get my point?

That's right, because according to genetics, if you don't have the exact same eyes as one of your parents, you must not be their child. Eye color does not have to come directly from the parent. The parent has all the genes of their family line, including all the eye colors, hair colors etc. It's really a crapshot on what the child gets.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

1) Your right, Vary's telling a dying man Aegon is real is not proof, because he would lie to someone dying man for what reason?

2)Putting a Blackfyre on the throne and calling he/she a Targaryen just keeps the Targaryens in power.

3)No Daemon thought his father wanted him to rule instead of the true born son. And no matter what they answer, the real answer is still yes.

4)Calling a dog a bear doesn't change what it really is, does it? If so I'm wolverine from x-men.

1.Varys little birds? Or maybe it's just that you don't slip in private if you wish to keep a lie in public, you'll never know who listens, and it is a very good habit.

2.Blackyre restoration is not what they want,Daemon s and Dareon s line union on the other hand.

3.Maegor got Blackfyree too but i don think Aegon meant Maegor to rule.A sword is not the kingdoom.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, if (f)Aegon continues to rule as king after the big "reveal" that he is BF, I think most would consider the descent to be through him--but that really is semantics as the children of (f)Aegon and Dany would be, obviously, the children of BOTH (f)Aegon and Dany.

ETA: Divorce is not so easy in Westros, so I am assuming Dany would be stuck with (f)Aegon.

But he has fooled everybody, in the way Cersei has done it. With that in mind, anyone could say that the King has taken the throne by false pretences and not a blood right. Because after all, this kid's claim comes from the fact he's Rhaegar's son, not some of Aegon IV's descendants. Any Lord who isn't satisfied by any reason could take this as a excuse to start one another rebellion, and cause more death and chaos, which is what Varys claim he doesn't want. Varys' plan only works if no one ever finds out about it, but we already have Dany believing that Aegon will be fake, due to the Undying and Quaithe (both prophecies are ambiguous, so, he could be real but she still would fight him).

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Varys did not really lie.Kevan says Aegon is dead and Varys says, no he isn't, he's here but they are not talking about the same Aegon,do they :cool4: ?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1) Your right, Vary's telling a dying man Aegon is real is not proof, because he would lie to someone dying man for what reason? The first rule of keeping a secret is NEVER TELLING THE SECRET. Why would he risk anybody hearing him? Is he a James Bond villain that has tell his plan before he kills? No, he lies to him because that is what Varys does. he lies. Always.

YOU NEVER EVER TELL ANYONE YOUR BIGGEST SECRET. Especially if it has not come to fruition yet.

2)Putting a Blackfyre on the throne and calling he/she a Targaryen just keeps the Targaryens in power.

Not according to the to the people in the know. You are talking about a society that completely believes in a Royal bloodline. If they changed that bloodline, even if nobody knows about it, they accomplished what they were trying to do.This will affect all of their descendents and the fate of all f Westeros.

3)No Daemon thought his father wanted him to rule instead of the true born son. And no matter what they answer, the real answer is still yes.

So why do they have different sigils? Why have different names? Why go to war over who should be the ruler 5 or 6 times? Why start a mercenary army to one day take the Throne back?

4)Calling a dog a bear doesn't change what it really is, does it? If so I'm wolverine from x-men.

Exactly, calling (f)Aegon a Targaryen doesn't make him one does it?

[TheLastStark]

If a Blackfyre and a Targaryen are the same thing, then why even pretend to be Aegon, why not just call him a Blackfyre and say the Crown is rightfully his? The people who would back him as a Targaryen would also back him as a Blackfyre since they are the same thing. Right?

And they are not creating a virus that kills all Targaryens and they forgot they are one too so they die as well... what bad planning!

No, they are running a sword thru somebody, if they say they killed all of the Targaryens and only Blackfyres are left... are they going to start killing themselves? No, they stop because they did what they set out to do.

Aegon has no idea about any of this, he only knows what he has been told. the "people" are most likely uneducated in the Blackfyre Rebellions, and wouldn't support someone with that surname(which does not prove your point only proves that the common folk don't know the history of the Blackfyres, but I'm pretty sure the Blackfyres know their own history, along with their supporters). If their goal is to exterminate the Targaryen line then yes they would, but it's not, the goal is to usurp(which is not exterminate) the Targaryens just like Robert did(who is actually ruling under the fact that his grandma was a Targaryen).

[TheLastStark]

Varys did not really lie.Kevan says Aegon is dead and Varys says, no he isn't, he's here but they are not talking about the same Aegon,do they :cool4: ?

That I could believe

1) Your right, Vary's telling a dying man Aegon is real is not proof, because he would lie to someone dying man for what reason? The first rule of keeping a secret is NEVER TELLING THE SECRET. Why would he risk anybody hearing him? Is he a James Bond villain that has tell his plan before he kills? No, he lies to him because that is what Varys does. he lies. Always.

YOU NEVER EVER TELL ANYONE YOUR BIGGEST SECRET. Especially if it has not come to fruition yet.

2)Putting a Blackfyre on the throne and calling he/she a Targaryen just keeps the Targaryens in power.

Not according to the to the people in the know. You are talking about a society that completely believes in a Royal bloodline. If they changed that bloodline, even if nobody knows about it, they accomplished what they were trying to do.This will affect all of their descendents and the fate of all f Westeros.

3)No Daemon thought his father wanted him to rule instead of the true born son. And no matter what they answer, the real answer is still yes.

So why do they have different sigils? Why have different names? Why go to war over who should be the ruler 5 or 6 times? Why start a mercenary army to one day take the Throne back?

4)Calling a dog a bear doesn't change what it really is, does it? If so I'm wolverine from x-men.

Exactly, calling (f)Aegon a Targaryen doesn't make him one does it?

1)First rule huh, then why even mention Aegon if you want to keep that secret?

2)How would it change the fate? Everyone, including Aegon, would believe that they are Targaryens.

3)Same sigil, reversed colors. He thought he was special for receiving Blackfyre(the sword). Thought that by getting the sword from his father that his father wanted him to rule instead of the true born children, and passed that belief down. The GC was created to stop all of the exiles and Blackfyre supporter from joining other groups and becoming split up.

4)Blackfyre = Targaryen. I know this is a hard concept for you to grasp. And calling Aegon a Blackfyre doesn't make him one.

[Lord Varys]

The thing there is, that we have no evidence to connect Aerion's son to Lys. Aerion was there, but his sons was born in 232, if I'm not mistaken, long after Aerion had returned. There is no reason to believe that Aerion's unknown wife had connections to Lys, either. Say he married during the exile, surely he would have murdered/rid himself of that wife if she could not give him an heir for twenty years.

The fate of Aerion's infant son should be an interesting story, and I do not dismiss the possibility that he is connected to this somehow, but Lys should have nothing to do with it.

Rightfulness and the law does also not figure into Varys and Illyrio's game. They make their own plans, and their rules, and whatever they want they make happen. They want to put Aegon on the Iron Throne, regardless whose son he is, and it doesn't matter to them if there are still other dragon blood guys out there, with better claims - Blackfyre, Targaryen, or otherwise.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

That's the same argument that everyone uses for R+L=J, but its only obvious and easy because of the internet and sites like this. To 90% of the readers who do not encounter place like this they have no idea.

I must be in the 10% then. I come up with things on my own without the aid of the internet all the time.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The thing there is, that we have no evidence to connect Aerion's son to Lys. Aerion was there, but his sons was born in 232, if I'm not mistaken, long after Aerion had returned. There is no reason to believe that Aerion's unknown wife had connections to Lys, either. Say he married during the exile, surely he would have murdered/rid himself of that wife if she could not give him an heir for twenty years.

The fate of Aerion's infant son should be an interesting story, and I do not dismiss the possibility that he is connected to this somehow, but Lys should have nothing to do with it.

Rightfulness and the law does also not figure into Varys and Illyrio's game. They make their own plans, and their rules, and whatever they want they make happen. They want to put Aegon on the Iron Throne, regardless whose son he is, and it doesn't matter to them if there are still other dragon blood guys out there, with better claims - Blackfyre, Targaryen, or otherwise.

Aerion could have fathered a son or daughter (or both, or several) while he was in Lys. Not likely any legitimate ones, but still a dragonseed is better than nothing at all.

And let's remember Egg's third son...who we know nothing about...it's a wonder all of Planetos isn't crawling with Targs.

[Lord Varys]

He could, but as I've said in various threads, Varys would have to be their grandchild of those bastards, and that would be as if Rennifer Longwaters started an elaborate conspiracy to put his kin on the Iron Throne for no reason (well, perhaps he is doing just that...). Why the hell would anyone feed little Varys the idea that he was the rightful king if he was descended from some bastard of some mad prince?

Yes, Egg's third son would also be an interesting possibility.

But why not imagine Illyrio and Varys as distant cousins through two different Blackfyre lines who were never directly involved in the Blackfyre Rebellions. Now we know four pretenders four sure (Daemons I, II, III, and Maelys), Haegon most likely was the third pretender. 2-3 sons of Daemon I may never have been pretenders, and the daughters are also still out there. Some of the grandsons could have been killed in the fighting - both in Westeros and in the Disputed Lands - but the women could have survived.

[UtherSnow]

Does (f)Aegon possess a certain sword, of Valyrian Steel? Blackfyre, itself, would settle a lot.

[SJC]

No other Targaryen King would have given the GC members the titles and lands they consider rightfully theirs back. Robert had no need for the GCs swords and would not have insulted lords who served under him by giving their lands to Blackfyre supporters.

How is it far from what Illyrion said? Blackfyre blood is Targaryen blood, remember.

To the Blackfyres and their supporters, the blood is very much not the same. They did not found multiple rebellions on ambivalence.

The point of the hypotheticals was not to suggest anything approaching likely scenarios, just to point out that the common defenses against the Blackfyre involvement (the blood does not matter, etc.) raise more questions than they answer (and even to those hypotheticals, your posposed distinction offers no difference...under any scenario, it would be the losing side whose supporters would lose lands to the returning lords of the Golden Company).

If the Blackfyres were perfectly willing to support a Targaryen once the last male Blackfyre died, that has been true since Maelys died. So why now? If they were waiting for a Targaryen claimant who "needed" them in order to justify restoration of their lands, well Aerys could have used them, and Viserys begged them for help only to be laughed at. If the Golden Company cared about Targaryen blood, letting Viserys and Dany wander the Free Cities penniless is an odd way to demonstrate loyalty.