The Rogue Prince or King´s Brother, Part III

[Jaak]

Two parts have each been locked, apparently for length:

part I at 29 pages

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/112556-spoilers-the-rogue-prince-or-a-kings-brother-discussion/

part II at 24 pages

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113133-rogue-prince-or-kings-brother-part-ii/

So...

Last commented on Part II: the roots of Dance of Dragons do not start with Viserys I and Daemon, because they are firmly rooted in Jaehaerys I-s deeds sometime in 80s.

Viserys I can clearly be critizised for putting his own wants above either political considerations or other people´s wants. He was an absolute monarch who used Iron Throne as he pleased.

But how or why did Jaehaerys the Conciliator make the decisions in 80s...92 that also rooted the Dance?

[Lord Varys]

My last post in the old thread (and the last post of the thread):

The problem with Rhaenys vs. Baelon in Jaehaerys opinion most likely was that he would install a female grandchild as heir, in opposition to all his sons and grandsons. He may have thought that this would work flawlessly if Aemon had king before, but would not work flawlessly/meet a lot of opposition if he did it as old man shortly before his death. I guess he did not expect to rule another 11 years.

I'd be very surprised if Prince Aemon did not want his daughter to succeed him. Apparently he had only one child - at least only one child living to adulthood, and he did not choose another wife after Jocelyn's death (or after she could no longer bear any children - we don't know if she predeceased him). If Aemon had only one daughter - or daughters - the line of succession would have been clear, at least prior to his death.

And Rhaenys' marriage to Corlys Velaryon clearly was no accident, either.

[Jaak]

I'd be very surprised if Prince Aemon did not want his daughter to succeed him. Apparently he had only one child - at least only one child living to adulthood, and he did not choose another wife after Jocelyn's death (or after she could no longer bear any children - we don't know if she predeceased him). If Aemon had only one daughter - or daughters - the line of succession would have been clear, at least prior to his death.

And Rhaenys' marriage to Corlys Velaryon clearly was no accident, either.

Rhaenys lost her father, and inheritance, age 18. She is first attested as married to Corlys in 93, age 19, when she bore Laena.

What was the reason for Rhaenys/Corlys marriage?

[Jaak]

Viserys was lazy, fat, and hated conflict, even though he could be stubborn in his decisions, like making Rhaenyra his heir and marrying her to Laenor.

Was he lazy, fat and hating conflict in his early teens, before 92 when he was 15?

What were the advantages of Viserys/Aemma over Viserys/Rhaenys? Neither Aemma nor Daella is reputed to have ridden dragons. And Aemma did not have a plausible claim to throne.

Aegon II was 14 when he married his 13 year old sister Helaena.

Daemon, despite being Rogue, did end up bowing to Rhaenyra as Queen, and stayed just Protector of the Realm.

If Aemon had, say, in 91, arranged a marriage between the then 17 year old Rhaenys and 14 year old Viserys, would Viserys ever have tried to usurp his wife and cousin the way Aegon was feared to try usurping his wife and sister?

Aegon II begat 2 well attested bastards in a single year after his wedding alone, despite being 14 himself. Viserys I had only one in his 30+ years of adult life, and that Trystane only crept out of woodwork in fairly suspect times. So, was Viserys a good husband material, and would he have been a good husband for Rhaenys?

[Lord Varys]

Viserys' health and shape changed over the years. He most likely was not fat in his youth, although we never get a description of him in his prime - but the whole 'the Young King' thing seems to suggest that he was quite dashing when he took the Iron Throne.

We really don't know if Daella or her daughter Aemma rode a dragon. As queen with Targaryen blood (and wife to the heir of Prince Baelon) I'm pretty sure she could have claimed a dragon if she wanted one - who would have denied her? And Daella may have had a dragon before she was betrothed and married to her Arryn husband. Daella seems to have died in childbirth, so it may be that Aemma inherited her dragon.

I'd imagine that Jaehaerys or Aemon arranged the match Corlys-Rhaenys in their youth. Perhaps they were already married in 92, but just had no children yet because Corlys spend a lot of time at sea...? Marrying Rhaenys to a man like Corlys strongly suggests that Aemon was trying to find the first Queen Regnant of Westeros a suitable consort...

There is no proof that Trystane was Viserys' son. That's just a claim, and from what we know as of yet, I doubt that he had extramarital affairs after he married Alicent.

[Jaak]

Viserys' health and shape changed over the years. He most likely was not fat in his youth, although we never get a description of him in his prime - but the whole 'the Young King' thing seems to suggest that he was quite dashing when he took the Iron Throne.

Aegon II was already fat at 14.

We really don't know if Daella or her daughter Aemma rode a dragon. As queen with Targaryen blood (and wife to the heir of Prince Baelon) I'm pretty sure she could have claimed a dragon if she wanted one - who would have denied her? And Daella may have had a dragon before she was betrothed and married to her Arryn husband. Daella seems to have died in childbirth, so it may be that Aemma inherited her dragon.

Then who was that dragon? Which dragon was available to claim?

I'd imagine that Jaehaerys or Aemon arranged the match Corlys-Rhaenys in their youth. Perhaps they were already married in 92, but just had no children yet because Corlys spend a lot of time at sea...? Marrying Rhaenys to a man like Corlys strongly suggests that Aemon was trying to find the first Queen Regnant of Westeros a suitable consort...

Yes, but why did Aemon choose Corlys over Viserys?

[Jaak]

The death of an adult dragon is rare. It makes history when it happens.

In Rogue Prince, 2 old dragons get introduced:

Vhagar is introduced as tamed by Laena sometime by 106, when she was 12

Dreamfyre is introduced as tamed by Helaena sometime by 120, when she was 12. Dreamfyre is also introduced as having been the dragon of Jaehaerys´ sister Rhaena (who was 11 years older).

That´s it. There are no more preowned dragons around (also the castle dragons Vermithor and Silverwing go unridden after deaths of Jaehaerys and Alysanne).

Did Vhagar have rider/s between Visenya and Laena? And did Dreamfyre have rider/s between Rhaena and Helaena?

[Jaak]

There are also two Targaryen princes who were heirs and who might have been expected to ride dragons. Aemon and Baelon.

Did they ride dragons?

[HexMachina]

There are also two Targaryen princes who were heirs and who might have been expected to ride dragons. Aemon and Baelon.

Did they ride dragons?

Meleys the Red Queen was no stranger to battle - so either Rhaenys rode her into some battle (and we know she never went to the Stepstones with Corlys and Daemon) or someone owned the Dragon before her.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I doubt that Aemon rode Balerion at one point. Aemon only died in 92AC, and Balerion two years later, in 94AC. That would thus leave only 2 years for Viserys to have flown on his dragon.

Possible, not IMO not likely.

Baelon riding Balerion, is out, for obvious reasons :)

So perhaps one of them did indeed ride Vhagar? Or Caraxes? If Aemon had ridden Caraxes, Daemon would have been 12 when the dragon came available.

And Meleys and Dreamfyre of course are also possibilities.. Though if Rhaena survived Maegor and lived for another 25-30 years (at the end of Maegor's reign, she would only have been 25 years old, after all), that would decrease the changes of Dreamfyre having been the dragon of either Aemon or Baelon, since it seems that Targaryens usually bond with their dragons at an earlier age. Though of course, there are exceptions, so it is still possible.

[Jaak]

We have that mention of Rhaenys having been as brave at 55 as she was at 22.

How was she brave at 22?

It was 96 AC. She was married mother of two then - Laena was 2, Laenor 3. And it was the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator and his heir and Hand Baelon.

Where did Rhaenys have an occasion for bravery?

[Lord Varys]

There is still room for some unknown dragons. TRP did not really focus on the life and times of the dragons, only Syrax, Caraxes, and Vhagar were mentioned, and only the latter two played an important role.

It's easily imaginable that Dreamfyre and Vhagar had other riders before they were chosen by Helaena and Laena, and some other dragons could have just died of injuries or (apparent) sickness.

I'd imagine that all of Aenys' children dragons of their own, i.e. Rhaena (Dreamfyre), Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys (Vermithor), and Alysanne (Silverwing).

That would leave two additional dragons for Aegon and Viserys. We know that Aegon eventually bonded with his father's dragon, Quicksilver, but this does not mean that he did not get a hatchling of his own in his childhood. This dragon may have died some years down the line, perhaps he was even killed when Aegon and Rhaena were forced to seek refuge at Crakehall Castle during their progress?

Viserys' dragon could not have survived Maegor's reign.

Two mystery Targaryens would be Rhaena's twin daughters by Prince Aegon - if they did survive Maegor's rule, they, too, would have been given hatchlings, long before Jaehaerys' children were even born.

Of the nine children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne at least 4-5 should have been dragonriders - Princes Aemon and Baelon most likely, and then possibly some of their sisters as well (especially Baelon's wife, if she was a sister). If they had a lot of daughters, some of the younger daughters may not have been given eggs/hatchlings if they were married off into other powerful noble families.

Balerion, Vhagar, Dreamfyre, Meleys, and Caraxes may have had multiple riders.

[HexMachina]

Of the nine children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne at least 4-5 should have been dragonriders - Princes Aemon and Baelon most likely, and then possibly some of their sisters as well (especially Baelon's wife, if she was a sister). If they had a lot of daughters, some of the younger daughters may not have been given eggs/hatchlings if they were married off into other powerful noble families.

Well I think it is safe to rule out Saera having a dragon, if she mosied off over the Narrow Sea. I would also discount Princess Daella, since she married into House Arryn. The Targaryens may have been uncomfortable giving dragons to another Great House. I agree that Aemon and Baelon were likely dragon riders. Aemon may have ridden Vhagar, and that could explain why it was Laena who bonded with her - her last rider had been Laena's grandfather.

[DanaKz]

I think Rhaena's daughters were already dead before Maegor's death/Jaehaerys coronation.

Well, Maegor stood in tle line of succession behind Rhaena and her sister(s). In the eyes of the people Alysanne had more rights than Maegor. Daughter stays before her uncle.

When Jaehaerys refused to install Rhaenys as his heir, some people noted that it was unusual. I mean, it was still a tradition that kids of first sons became heirs after their father died, not second sons. Noone have mentioned that it was in history of Targariens before, to reject granddaughters in favour for second sons.

So, in this case Rhaena's daughters had more rights than Jaehaerys.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I'm not sure if this works age-wise, but if one of Rhaena's girls married into House Velaryon and was the mother of Corlys, this could explain why Aemon's daughter and heir Rhaenys was married to Corlys. To unite the two elder branches of House Targaryen...

And if it does not work age-wise with the twins, it would be possible that Rhaena was Corlys' mother, if she survived her marriage to her uncle Maegor...

If Rhaena's girls survived Maegor, they clearly were passed over in favor of Jaehaerys - Prince Aegon was never king, after all - and it seems that the anti-Maegor-faction gathered around Jaehaerys, not around Rhaena's children, after Aenys' two elder sons were killed.

Maegor could also have tried to install Rhaena's children as his heirs, after he had married her - at least until he had finally fathered a child of his own blood. From a dynastic point of view, Maegor faced a rather huge dilemma - all other Targaryens were children of his half-brother Aenys, and if he killed Aegon and Viserys early in his reign, technically Jaehaerys, Rhaena, and Alysanne were his only heirs. If Jaehaerys and Alysanne openly fought against him (and would thus eventually b killed, too), only Rhaena and her children would remain to continue the dynasty - unless Maegor himself could produce an heir...

But it would also be no surprise if Maegor killed the twins when he married Rhaena. He was Maegor the Cruel, after all...

[not in the face]

Are there any theories floating around that maybe Alicent poisoned so somehow caused Viserys death? It just seems like he deteriorated so quickly. Once the maester from Dragonstone showed up he started getting better again but then fell off for good. I find it shady myself.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Are there any theories floating around that maybe Alicent poisoned so somehow caused Viserys death? It just seems like he deteriorated so quickly. Once the maester from Dragonstone showed up he started getting better again but then fell off for good. I find it shady myself.

That is indeed a theory, and something that is suspected by many readers of the story,.

I don't believe that we've agreed on who the poisoner was, yet..

Btw, in a Not a Blog from quite a while back, GRRM wrote that there was a dwarf court fool (Mushroom, we now know) who made "wild" claims, and to one of those claims, a septon (Eustace) replied "Poison? He didn't die of poison! He died in his sleep!"

[Jaak]

Over the 30 year span of Rogue Prince, I count 11 dragons expressly hatched:

Syrax

Sunfyre

Tessarion

Vermax

Arrax

Tyraxes

Stormcloud

Moondancer

unnamed hatchling who died young

Morghil

Shrykos

There were 5 expressly old tame dragons around:

Balerion

Vhagar

Dreamfyre

Vermithor

Silverwing

This leaves 3 dragons first attested without express explanation as to whether they were preowned or newly hatched:

Meleys

Caraxes

Seasmoke

Do you expect that any dragons hatched between 70 and 100?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Over the 30 year span of Rogue Prince, I count 11 dragons expressly hatched:

Syrax

Sunfyre

Tessarion

Vermax

Arrax

Tyraxes

Stormcloud

Moondancer

unnamed hatchling who died young

Morghil

Shrykos

There were 5 expressly old tame dragons around:

Balerion

Vhagar

Dreamfyre

Vermithor

Silverwing

This leaves 3 dragons first attested without express explanation as to whether they were preowned or newly hatched:

Meleys

Caraxes

Seasmoke

Do you expect that any dragons hatched between 70 and 100?

Meleys and Caraxes I think, but closer to 70AC than to 100AC.

For some reason, I can picture Daemon trying to claim a dragon of 20 years old or something like that easily. Daemon himself would then be around 10 years old himself. He would be bold enough for such a thing, I think.

Meleys might have hatched around Rhaenys' birth.. Or earlier, perhaps.

Seasmoke, I have no idea.

[HexMachina]

We also have the hatching of Grey Ghost, The Cannibal and Sheepstealer at some point, and one of those could potentially have been hatched between 70 and 100