opinions on bowen marsh?

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

He is a raider in the same dread vein as the Viper, who comes to vash the vindows.

I get where Bowen Marsh is coming from.

You have to assume his POV on this one.

You have worked for a company for likely decades.

Then some kid is hired and within a year or two becomes your boss.

You make every attempt to clue him in on the culture of the company and the traditions but he ignores you. He wont listen to any of the senior executives.

Then he merges the company with its most bitter rival, people you have hated for years and makes you share an office with these useless slobs AND you take a HUGE paycut (probably so bad you will starve to death) so he can pay these jerkwads.

I think I would want to stab him too.

I remember when I was a kid I worked at this pharmacy. My boss was 24 and I was 16 so NBD. Then they hired this old African guy. The boss (who was also the owners son) was always telling this guy what to do and picking on him. Turns out the African guy was actually a doctor who owned a chain of pharmacies in Africa. At that point I was like, "wow it must suck to have this kid bossing you around when you know the business 100 times better than he does". He just looked at me and I could tell he was dying a little inside.

The moral of the stories is it is AGONIZING to take orders from someone you see as an incompetent child in way over there head. Thats not how I see Jon, I think Jon is kickass, but thats how Bowen Marsh sees him.

One difference there. Your office job doesn't have death zombies emerging on it that will certainly kill you all

[MyLittleFinger]

The Wall and the Night's Watch can't fall without some failure. Jon Snow can't be portrayed as having failed being the hero he is.

Ergo, he gets shanked, he goes out of commission and the Wall falls.

Marsh is semi-justified in his stabbing, but the justification is terrible to the reader since we know about what Bran has seen and all the tales of the Long Night.

[butterbumps!]

[ "Bowen Marsh is a scum" is just a shout out to one of my all time favorite westeros.org posters, she is fond of that phrase. :) ]

the singular "scum" is a favorite of mine too. By chance, were you the one who made that sublime "Bowen Marsh is a Scum" thread? I think that might be in my top 10 threads of all time.

[sj4iy]

One difference there. Your office job doesn't have death zombies emerging on it that will certainly kill you all

Lol, this. It's not as if Bowen Marsh isn't AWARE of the threat the Others post, because he was there when they found Othor and Flowers; it's just that he has somehow convinced himself that they aren't as big of a threat as the Iron Throne is to the NW...which to me, is absolutely absurd. I think I would be MUCH MORE worried about what an army of dead people would do to me than what a boy sitting the IT would do (if he even bothered to care, which he hasn't so far).

[Chaircat Meow]

Bowen’s implied general strategy is as follows;

‘Take the high ground,’ that is, use the wall as it’s meant to be used, to repel an invasion from the north (from wildlings or Others). Keep the wildlings out by blocking the gates, because they have women, children and animals and can’t scale the wall. Maintain good terms with king’s landing and the king’s representatives in the north because they are going to be the ones the watch will need in the long run. Stannis has only 1,000 men and being seen to support him will do damage in the long run more than outweighing any help he can give.

Bowen thinks Jon’s strategy is poor because he believes the wildings won’t change their spots. If they are allowed over the wall they’ll run out of control, or betray the black brothers. At the very least they will eat the nw out, and then the violence will start when there is no food. I’m not sure how seriously he takes the Others. It would be unfair to say he disregards them; he just doesn’t think Jon’s plan is any kind of solution, and the wildlings are still enemies regardless of what the Others do.

This might be very unimaginative but it's easy to understand.

[butterbumps!]

Bowen’s implied general strategy is as follows;

‘Take the high ground,’ that is, use the wall as it’s meant to be used, to repel an invasion from the north (from wildlings or Others). Keep the wildlings out by blocking the gates, because they have women, children and animals and can’t scale the wall. Maintain good terms with king’s landing and the king’s representatives in the north because they are going to be the ones the watch will need in the long run. Stannis has only 1,000 men and being seen to support him will do damage in the long run more than outweighing any help he can give.

Bowen thinks Jon’s strategy is poor because he believes the wildings won’t change their spots. If they are allowed over the wall they’ll run out of control, or betray the black brothers. At the very least they will eat the nw out, and then the violence will start when there is no food. I’m not sure how seriously he takes the Others. It would be unfair to say he disregards them; he just doesn’t think Jon’s plan is any kind of solution, and the wildlings are still enemies regardless of what the Others do.

This might be very unimaginative but it's easy to understand.

I get that Bowen believes "seal gates" = profit.

My issue is that this is not an alternative "strategy," but rather, a single tactic, and he never engaged far enough into these discussions to expound on how he thought it would play out on all the factors you mention and benefit the whole better than Jon's plan.

It's clear Bowen strongly believed in sealing the gates. But he dismisses the problems this would raise and doesn't offer mitigations. Sealing the gates won't keep wildlings out; there aren't enough Watchmen to guard each mile of Wall, and inevitably, wildling soldier will end up climbing over. We also know Mance had planned to build ships and bypass the Wall, so if anyone decided to carry that out, wildlings would be turning up on Northern shores in bulk anyway.

Some of the same issues pertain to the Others as well. There simply isn't enough manpower to rebuild and garrison enough castles to keep an eye out for the Others as it stands. Does Bowen think that the Wall is enough to keep the Others back? (genuine question). One of the lessons from the Fist is that wights are able to scale pretty sheer surfaces, so I'm a bit confused if Bowen and others took for granted that they'd be safe from behind the Wall. This plan also seems like a good way to render oneself blind-- if rangers aren't going out at all, how can they warn the rest of an attack, or enemy locations?

I'm also unclear on how Bowen thought defying Stannis would play out. What if Stannis retreated to the Wall? Stannis had already threatened to take what he wanted from the Watch by force, and he could indeed overpower the Watch. Is Bowen's idea that in the event Stannis is at the Wall, the Watch and the Boltons should fight on the same side against Stannis? Shortly after news of Tywin's death arrives, Stannis goes on to conjure support from other Northmen; fighting with the Boltons against Stannis and Northmen would put them at odds with the rest of the North. This is something Jon asks him very directly on, and he doesn't give any sort of answer besides "let's hope we're not on the losing side." I get that Bowen hates the fact that Stannis is there, but he admits the Watch can't fight Stannis themselves, so I'm not sure what Bowen was imagining as an alternative solution.

[sj4iy]

I get that Bowen believes "seal gates" = profit.

My issue is that this is not an alternative "strategy," but rather, a single tactic, and he never engaged far enough into these discussions to expound on how he thought it would play out on all the factors you mention and benefit the whole better than Jon's plan.

It's clear Bowen strongly believed in sealing the gates. But he dismisses the problems this would raise and doesn't offer mitigations. Sealing the gates won't keep wildlings out; there aren't enough Watchmen to guard each mile of Wall, and inevitably, wildling soldier will end up climbing over. We also know Mance had planned to build ships and bypass the Wall, so if anyone decided to carry that out, wildlings would be turning up on Northern shores in bulk anyway.

Some of the same issues pertain to the Others as well. There simply isn't enough manpower to rebuild and garrison enough castles to keep an eye out for the Others as it stands. Does Bowen think that the Wall is enough to keep the Others back? (genuine question). One of the lessons from the Fist is that wights are able to scale pretty sheer surfaces, so I'm a bit confused if Bowen and others took for granted that they'd be safe from behind the Wall. This plan also seems like a good way to render oneself blind-- if rangers aren't going out at all, how can they warn the rest of an attack, or enemy locations?

I'm also unclear on how Bowen thought defying Stannis would play out. What if Stannis retreated to the Wall? Stannis had already threatened to take what he wanted from the Watch by force, and he could indeed overpower the Watch. Is Bowen's idea that in the event Stannis is at the Wall, the Watch and the Boltons should fight on the same side against Stannis? Shortly after news of Tywin's death arrives, Stannis goes on to conjure support from other Northmen; fighting with the Boltons against Stannis and Northmen would put them at odds with the rest of the North. This is something Jon asks him very directly on, and he doesn't give any sort of answer besides "let's hope we're not on the losing side." I get that Bowen hates the fact that Stannis is there, but he admits the Watch can't fight Stannis themselves, so I'm not sure what Bowen was imagining as an alternative solution.

Very well put. I also wonder what was going through his head. Basically, it doesn't make much sense, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if there was someone else masterminding the assassination attempt.

[unitron]

Very well put. I also wonder what was going through his head. Basically, it doesn't make much sense, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if there was someone else masterminding the assassination attempt.

Osney was supposed to seduce Margaery and get caught or have an attack of the guilts and confess, and be offered the chance to take the black instead of losing his head.

Except that what Cersei really had in mind was for him to be in charge of the hundred men she and Qyburn had dreamed up the idea of sending to the wall as supposed recruits but actually to get rid of Jon.

When last heard from, though, Osney was still a prisoner of the Faith, apparently being held to testify at Cersei's trial.

But could Qyburn have taken it upon himself to have arranged an alternate way to get rid of Jon?

[Balerion the one eared cat]

I hate the guy. He was ignorant and refused to accept the slightest change to what he thought was right; especially when it came to accepting that wildlings might, just maybe, be human beings too. (See my signature for my favourite ASOIAF quote). Well, except for Wun Wun. And the wargs/skinchangers. Still...

I do think he did what he believed was right "for the Watch" because Jon was going a little power-crazy and against half of what the NW is all about (the enemy is North of the wall, not south, the Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms, don't march south, like ever - one Night's King is quite enough). He believed that Jon needed to be put out of action, and seeing as Jon wouldn't listen to his counsel, I kinda see why he did it.

Still, stabbing Jon?! Really? REALLY?! Not cool, man!

[BlackStark]

I get that Bowen believes "seal gates" = profit.

My issue is that this is not an alternative "strategy," but rather, a single tactic, and he never engaged far enough into these discussions to expound on how he thought it would play out on all the factors you mention and benefit the whole better than Jon's plan.

It's clear Bowen strongly believed in sealing the gates. But he dismisses the problems this would raise and doesn't offer mitigations. Sealing the gates won't keep wildlings out; there aren't enough Watchmen to guard each mile of Wall, and inevitably, wildling soldier will end up climbing over. We also know Mance had planned to build ships and bypass the Wall, so if anyone decided to carry that out, wildlings would be turning up on Northern shores in bulk anyway.

Some of the same issues pertain to the Others as well. There simply isn't enough manpower to rebuild and garrison enough castles to keep an eye out for the Others as it stands. Does Bowen think that the Wall is enough to keep the Others back? (genuine question). One of the lessons from the Fist is that wights are able to scale pretty sheer surfaces, so I'm a bit confused if Bowen and others took for granted that they'd be safe from behind the Wall. This plan also seems like a good way to render oneself blind-- if rangers aren't going out at all, how can they warn the rest of an attack, or enemy locations?

I'm also unclear on how Bowen thought defying Stannis would play out. What if Stannis retreated to the Wall? Stannis had already threatened to take what he wanted from the Watch by force, and he could indeed overpower the Watch. Is Bowen's idea that in the event Stannis is at the Wall, the Watch and the Boltons should fight on the same side against Stannis? Shortly after news of Tywin's death arrives, Stannis goes on to conjure support from other Northmen; fighting with the Boltons against Stannis and Northmen would put them at odds with the rest of the North. This is something Jon asks him very directly on, and he doesn't give any sort of answer besides "let's hope we're not on the losing side." I get that Bowen hates the fact that Stannis is there, but he admits the Watch can't fight Stannis themselves, so I'm not sure what Bowen was imagining as an alternative solution.

Once the wildings host has been smashed by Stannis' forces and Mance has been captured, I think Bowen rightly believes the Wildings are too unorganized and lack enough cohesion to formulate a plan to scale the Wall (maybe a few isolated soldiers will but not in numbers to be a significant threat) or to build ships to bypass the Wall.

As to the Others, I always gathered that the Wall was more than a simple barrier, having been imbued with magical properties during its construction that prevent the Others (or wights) from scaling or passing through it. Was that not the reason Coldhands needed Sam to reach Bran and company? Was that not Jon's rationale for storing the bodies in the ice cells? As long as the Wall stands, the Others will not be able to invade the Seven Kingdoms.

[sj4iy]

Once the wildings host has been smashed by Stannis' forces and Mance has been captured, I think Bowen rightly believes the Wildings are too unorganized and lack enough cohesion to formulate a plan to scale the Wall (maybe a few isolated soldiers will but not in numbers to be a significant threat) or to build ships to bypass the Wall.

As to the Others, I always gathered that the Wall was more than a simple barrier, having been imbued with magical properties during its construction that prevent the Others (or wights) from scaling or passing through it. Was that not the reason Coldhands needed Sam to reach Bran and company? Was that not Jon's rationale for storing the bodies in the ice cells? As long as the Wall stands, the Others will not be able to invade the Seven Kingdoms.

Actually, Jon wanted the bodies in the ice cells to rise. I don't think he would have stored them in the ice cells if he had known about the magic in the Wall and what it does.

[new djinn]

I get that Bowen believes "seal gates" = profit.

My issue is that this is not an alternative "strategy," but rather, a single tactic, and he never engaged far enough into these discussions to expound on how he thought it would play out on all the factors you mention and benefit the whole better than Jon's plan.

It's clear Bowen strongly believed in sealing the gates. But he dismisses the problems this would raise and doesn't offer mitigations. Sealing the gates won't keep wildlings out; there aren't enough Watchmen to guard each mile of Wall, and inevitably, wildling soldier will end up climbing over. We also know Mance had planned to build ships and bypass the Wall, so if anyone decided to carry that out, wildlings would be turning up on Northern shores in bulk anyway.

Yep, Marsh and Show Jon are the only ones that think this. If these Northeners had only prayed to the Crone more often, they might have been wiser.

[blerg]

Marsh and co. stab Jon 15 minutes or so after his speech. So I highly doubt that the conspirators thought out the ramifications of there actions. This makes March's actions look even stupider in hindsight

[sj4iy]

Marsh and co. stab Jon 15 minutes or so after his speech. So I highly doubt that the conspirators thought out the ramifications of there actions. This makes March's actions look even stupider in hindsight

Well, it's also possible that it was something they had been planning, but ended up rushing it because of Jon's change in plans.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Marsh and co. stab Jon 15 minutes or so after his speech. So I highly doubt that the conspirators thought out the ramifications of there actions. This makes March's actions look even stupider in hindsight

He probably was stupid enough to believe the Boltons were actually going to show up to collect the hostages and put things in order. I think Marsh's next move will be to try to contact Roose to negotiate peace terms and ask for back ups. And give up the hostages, but good luck trying to get Val or Melisandre

[Hand to King Davos]

Yeah, agree with what most people have been saying so far. Marsh isn't evil, he is just extremely shortsighted. Jon could have communicated better, but its not as if Bowen inspired any confidence. As Jon says, all Bowen does is repeat the one idea he has had of sealing the gates.

[sifth]

Yeah, agree with what most people have been saying so far. Marsh isn't evil, he is just extremely shortsighted. Jon could have communicated better, but its not as if Bowen inspired any confidence. As Jon says, all Bowen does is repeat the one idea he has had of sealing the gates.

The sad thing is I could see Marsh's plan working. I don't believe the wights can climb The Wall like the wildings.

[Lion Of The Night]

Once the wildings host has been smashed by Stannis' forces and Mance has been captured, I think Bowen rightly believes the Wildings are too unorganized and lack enough cohesion to formulate a plan to scale the Wall (maybe a few isolated soldiers will but not in numbers to be a significant threat) or to build ships to bypass the Wall.

As to the Others, I always gathered that the Wall was more than a simple barrier, having been imbued with magical properties during its construction that prevent the Others (or wights) from scaling or passing through it. Was that not the reason Coldhands needed Sam to reach Bran and company? Was that not Jon's rationale for storing the bodies in the ice cells? As long as the Wall stands, the Others will not be able to invade the Seven Kingdoms.

Is it though?

Thats what we are told. Thats what we believe. And that is what the NW thinks. But we really don't know what's going to happen when the WW gets to the wall. They are massing their strength, and not just to make an appearance at a magical boundary.

We know so little about the WW abilities, motivations, and capabilities, we know so little a out them period. They may have some way of negating the walls supposed magic.

The fact is no one knows. Jon however is being proactive, where as marsh is just looking to keep the status quo. We will find out more in the next book, but I think the NW will have to wait until Sam finds something in Oldtown to give them an idea of what's in store and what they need to do. Narrativly it will probably end up that Jon was at least on the right track and Marsh's actions screwed them up.

[Witch]

Biggest hero in the series. He bravely sacrificed himself for the reader's benefit.

:bowdown:

[Chaircat Meow]

I get that Bowen believes "seal gates" = profit.

My issue is that this is not an alternative "strategy," but rather, a single tactic, and he never engaged far enough into these discussions to expound on how he thought it would play out on all the factors you mention and benefit the whole better than Jon's plan.

Call it what you want; you can extrapolate a rough strategy from Bowen's pronouncements if you care to.

It's clear Bowen strongly believed in sealing the gates. But he dismisses the problems this would raise and doesn't offer mitigations. Sealing the gates won't keep wildlings out; there aren't enough Watchmen to guard each mile of Wall, and inevitably, wildling soldier will end up climbing over. We also know Mance had planned to build ships and bypass the Wall, so if anyone decided to carry that out, wildlings would be turning up on Northern shores in bulk anyway.

I don't think sealing the gates was a good idea and you correctly point out there were issues with Bowen's plan. However, just because you can spot flaws with a plan doesn't mean it is inexplicable that someone thinks it is a good idea. The wildlings could try and scale the wall, but without a gate a big migration would find it very hard to pass. The biggest threat, so Bowen might have thought, was Tormund/Weeper pulling another Mance and getting it right.

Some of the same issues pertain to the Others as well. There simply isn't enough manpower to rebuild and garrison enough castles to keep an eye out for the Others as it stands. Does Bowen think that the Wall is enough to keep the Others back? (genuine question).

Yes, there is no manpower. However, unless you think teaming up with the wildlings and a dead man walking (Stannis) is a good idea there is no solution to this. Bowen thinks the wildlings are going to murder the nw in their beds, so doesn't think there is any choice but to try and man the wall with small forces and hope for help from KL or the wotn.

One of the lessons from the Fist is that wights are able to scale pretty sheer surfaces, so I'm a bit confused if Bowen and others took for granted that they'd be safe from behind the Wall. This plan also seems like a good way to render oneself blind-- if rangers aren't going out at all, how can they warn the rest of an attack, or enemy locations?

Surely you're not saying we should assume the wall is useless at repelling wights? What is it for then?

Yes, the inability to post scouts is a big disadvantage to sealing the gate; Jon says it goes against all his instincts.

I'm also unclear on how Bowen thought defying Stannis would play out. What if Stannis retreated to the Wall? Stannis had already threatened to take what he wanted from the Watch by force, and he could indeed overpower the Watch. Is Bowen's idea that in the event Stannis is at the Wall, the Watch and the Boltons should fight on the same side against Stannis? Shortly after news of Tywin's death arrives, Stannis goes on to conjure support from other Northmen; fighting with the Boltons against Stannis and Northmen would put them at odds with the rest of the North. This is something Jon asks him very directly on, and he doesn't give any sort of answer besides "let's hope we're not on the losing side." I get that Bowen hates the fact that Stannis is there, but he admits the Watch can't fight Stannis themselves, so I'm not sure what Bowen was imagining as an alternative solution.

No, I think he just assumed Stannis was going to meet a sticky end quickly and that Jon should not appear to be taking his side before that. I don't think he intended to use the watch to fight Stannis.

Bowen's plan is obviously the wrong one. However, if you don't think you can do a deal with the wildlings, and you assume Stannis is finished, he is not being anywhere near as unreasonable as many on this board like to claim. And actually those assumption are not crazy at all. Imagine if the first wildling leader beyond the wall was the Weeper, not Father Christmas.