opinions on bowen marsh?

[Ingelheim]

With the experiences beyond the wall I meant with the wildlings, I find his lack of worry about the others odd. Sorry you're right I took his lack of explanation for the bank loan and conflated with the other issues.

He's a lot of things but I wouldn't call him a coward, he fought the sweeper at the bridge of skulls despite being a steward and attacked Jon while surrounded by Jon's allies, including a giant.

So what?

It's his duty as brother of the NW to defend the Wall. If he hadn't fought the Sweeper he wouldn't have been a coward; he'd have been a deserter.

He's a coward because he tried to kill Jon instead of helping his brothers to defend themselves.

[butterbumps!]

With the experiences beyond the wall I meant with the wildlings, I find his lack of worry about the others odd. Sorry you're right I took his lack of explanation for the bank loan and conflated with the other issues.

I think what I find most baffling about Bowen is that all he ever does is fight the hypothetical, yet never offers an alternative solution. I guess the way he advocated for Jon to seal the gates might be an "alternative," but that solution would put the Watch at odds with Stannis (because Stannis is the one who wants to relocate the wildlings South), and it would render them blind in terms of knowing when the enemy is coming, and for some inexplicable reason, despite the aGoT wight attack and the men who returned from the Others attack after the Fist, he doesn't take this threat seriously.

I think it would have been a lot more interesting if Bowen offered something that presented an alternative to Jon's progressive policies from the perspective of the "old guard," which I think he's supposed to represent here. Instead, he's like "that guy" you find yourself working with on a group project who wants to waste your meetings complaining about how pointless the project is, as though that's going to make the fact that you have to do the project go away or something. It's inexplicable.

Instead of just being like "I'm super conservative and will disagree with everything!" I don't understand why he didn't offer up a vision of what a conservative solution would look like. His behavior was consistently absolutely deplorable and purposely obtuse, and in light of that, I have no idea how he can possibly delude himself into believing that he's been taking any sort of high ground. I'm not saying this from the POV of Jon's being an angel, but from a view that Bowen's contributions are so devoid of any sort of logic. The assassination was oddly enough the first time Bowen did something I can see as "reasonable" (he thought Jon was going to continue fighting the "winning side"). Though, the "reasonableness" of this action goes out the window if he failed to take out the wildlings at the same time (for example, the smart thing to do would be to set the Shieldhall on fire while they're all getting drunk in there).

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

So what?

It's his duty as brother of the NW to defend the Wall. If he hadn't fought the Sweeper he wouldn't have been a coward; he'd have been a deserter.

He's a coward because he tried to kill Jon instead of helping his brothers to defend themselves.

Why are you two saying Sweeper instead of weeper?

[dread pirate davos]

Why are you two saying Sweeper instead of weeper?

Sorry, it's my awful auto correct I wasn't home.

[sj4iy]

All beware the Sweeper.

[Maid So Fair]

Everyone has reasons, his just happen to be wrong ones. I understand why he does it and why Jon's actions appear so negative from his perspective but his timing could not possibly be worse. He thinks he is saving the Watch but all he's done is left them leaderless in the face of the biggest threat they have faced in thousands of years, surrounded by enemies on the brink of winter. Even from his POV he should have realised that he was throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Narvi]

He's right about a lot of things but really short sighted on the big picture. An excellent quarter master but not much else. Can't say my opinion of him is ever going to improve after stabbing my boy in the gut.

[dread pirate davos]

He's right about a lot of things but really short sighted on the big picture. An excellent quarter master but not much else. Can't say my opinion of him is ever going to improve after stabbing my boy in the gut.

Yeah this is pretty much what I think, in terms of his actions, he always pretty much does the wrong thing but I understand why and can respect the reasons. And don't get me wrong Jon's one of my favourite characters but I don't hate bowen for stabbing him now, where one my first read I did.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

Sorry, it's my awful auto correct I wasn't home.

Hah! Don't worry buddy I thought this was some forum thing :drunk:

[sj4iy]

Yeah this is pretty much what I think, in terms of his actions, he always pretty much does the wrong thing but I understand why and can respect the reasons. And don't get me wrong Jon's one of my favourite characters but I don't hate bowen for stabbing him now, where one my first read I did.

I can see where Marsh is coming from, and I don't hate him for stabbing Jon, I just think it was an incredibly stupid and short-sighted movie that could end up destroying the Night's Watch. I think Marsh may end up causing the very thing he was trying to prevent.

[Narvi]

Yea pretty much. I know why he did it but they way he did it. /shakes head

[yolkboy]

Bowen's like a war veteran - he took a serious wound in a battle against the wildlings, then finds out he will be living with the enemy, the NW sharing food with them despite having dangerously short supplies. If you look at his point of view, he's not the wholly evil guy people are quick to paint him as. His ignorance about the danger the Others pose is short-sighted, but in some respects I can understand his attitude and motives (despite not agreeing with him).

The all-out Bowen hate, painting him as an antagonist on the scale of Gregor is quite unfair. He's a man of tradition, and throughout DwD the points of contention he has with Jon are often easy to understand and not completely without reason. I actually have some sympathy for him sometimes.

[sj4iy]

Bowen's like a war veteran - he took a serious wound in a battle against the wildlings, then finds out he will be living with the enemy, the NW sharing food with them despite having dangerously short supplies. If you look at his point of view, he's not the wholly evil guy people are quick to paint him as. His ignorance about the danger the Others pose is short-sighted, but in some respects I can understand his attitude and motives (despite not agreeing with him).

The all-out Bowen hate, painting him as an antagonist on the scale of Gregor is quite unfair. He's a man of tradition, and throughout DwD the points of contention he has with Jon are often easy to understand and not completely without reason. I actually have some sympathy for him sometimes.

Yeah, he's definitely not a villain, he's simply an institutionalized soldier who can't see the big picture, despite Jon explaining to him why he's making the decisions he's making (yes, Jon DOES explain his reasoning, I've never understood why people act like he didn't). I'm really curious to see why Marsh was motivated to make such a risky move- he's definitely not a risk-taker, so it doesn't make sense to me. I wonder if there was someone else coordinating this attack.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Bowen Marsh is a scum.

And fragging Jon has broken the magic seal on the wall that holds so long as the Watch "remains true." In other words Marsh just made it possible for The Others to bypass the wall and start Fucking Westeros Up.

Way to go, Pomegranate Man. Way To Go.

[Narvi]

Bowen Marsh is a scum.

And fragging Jon has broken the magic seal on the wall that holds so long as the Watch "remains true." In other words Marsh just made it possible for The Others to bypass the wall and start Fucking Westeros Up.

Way to go, Pomegranate Man. Way To Go.

He thought what he was doing was best for the watch I believe. As far as bringing the wall down by himself that remains to be seen. I doubt it is simple as that or it would've come down when they oft Mormont.

[Lion Of The Night]

Yeah, he's definitely not a villain, he's simply an institutionalized soldier who can't see the big picture, despite Jon explaining to him why he's making the decisions he's making (yes, Jon DOES explain his reasoning, I've never understood why people act like he didn't). I'm really curious to see why Marsh was motivated to make such a risky move- he's definitely not a risk-taker, so it doesn't make sense to me. I wonder if there was someone else coordinating this attack.

This is true. The fact is the mandate of the NW has changed due to the times they are in. Unfortunately Jon may not have done the best jib of explaining why things needed to change, he may not even be aware of all the reasons why they have to change, he is just trying to make them before it is too late.

Marsh is like a person who is told to evacuate an area because of a flood warning and saying they don't need to because a flood has never happen their before, little realizing that the waters are already at his knees. I feel sorry for him because he is a tragic figure, and will live only long enough to realize the enormity of his sightlessness.

[Lion Of The Night]

Sorry

Duplicate post

[Frances Bean Corbray]

He thought what he was doing was best for the watch I believe. As far as bringing the wall down by himself that remains to be seen. I doubt it is simple as that or it would've come down when they oft Mormont.

The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions.

Much like Lysa, Theon, Lancel, and others of their ilk I do not think Marsh is evil. He is just dangerously short-sighted and stupid and other people end up suffering and dying from the actions their Follower Mentality causes them to take. It is possible to feel sorry for them and be pissed of at them at the same time and both feelings are right.

I do imagine Marsh's last words/thoughts will be some realization of "oh my God, I really fucked up" and we will get no joy in his demise (that is, after all, a recurring GRRM theme in this work).

[ "Bowen Marsh is a scum" is just a shout out to one of my all time favorite westeros.org posters, she is fond of that phrase. :) ]

And the mutiny at Craster's is going to somehow turn out to not count (in terms of how the magic seal on the wall works). A little silly and stupid sounding, I realize, but technically Mormont (unwittingly) led the bulk of the watch away from their post/job/true purpose, as "good" an idea as it was and as sound as his reasons for doing it were.

[BitsOfBrains]

All beware the Sweeper.

He is a raider in the same dread vein as the Viper, who comes to vash the vindows.

I get where Bowen Marsh is coming from.

You have to assume his POV on this one.

You have worked for a company for likely decades.

Then some kid is hired and within a year or two becomes your boss.

You make every attempt to clue him in on the culture of the company and the traditions but he ignores you. He wont listen to any of the senior executives.

Then he merges the company with its most bitter rival, people you have hated for years and makes you share an office with these useless slobs AND you take a HUGE paycut (probably so bad you will starve to death) so he can pay these jerkwads.

I think I would want to stab him too.

I remember when I was a kid I worked at this pharmacy. My boss was 24 and I was 16 so NBD. Then they hired this old African guy. The boss (who was also the owners son) was always telling this guy what to do and picking on him. Turns out the African guy was actually a doctor who owned a chain of pharmacies in Africa. At that point I was like, "wow it must suck to have this kid bossing you around when you know the business 100 times better than he does". He just looked at me and I could tell he was dying a little inside.

The moral of the stories is it is AGONIZING to take orders from someone you see as an incompetent child in way over there head. Thats not how I see Jon, I think Jon is kickass, but thats how Bowen Marsh sees him.

[Boarsbane]

So what?

It's his duty as brother of the NW to defend the Wall. If he hadn't fought the Sweeper he wouldn't have been a coward; he'd have been a deserter.

He's a coward because he tried to kill Jon instead of helping his brothers to defend themselves.

How would he be a deserter for not taking men to fight the Weeper? Hell, he shouldn't of taken those men to fight the Weeper. Just because he did something you don't like doesn't mean he is a coward. He is a lot of unpleasant things but he is no coward.