Dornish Debates iii: Of Kings and Courts

[Chebyshov]

I still mixed up Vaith and Godsgrace despite making this quiz. Vaith's location also makes me realize just how lame Arianne and Tyene's attempt to visit Willas was.

[Julia Martell]

Now I really want to know how Kingsgrave got its name.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Now I really want to know how Kingsgrave got its name.

A King of the Reach was killed there, according to the app. The Manwoodys have a head on their sigil.

[Julia Martell]

I still mixed up Vaith and Godsgrace despite making this quiz. Vaith's location also makes me realize just how lame Arianne and Tyene's attempt to visit Willas was.

Half-hearted cries for attention often are.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

From a historical perspective, the fact that the King of the Reach was killed in Kingsgrave indicates that the Gardeners may have controlled Nightsong and Harvest Hall, possibly up to Blackhaven or even the Swann lands.

[Chebyshov]

From a historical perspective, the fact that the King of the Reach was killed in Kingsgrave indicates that the Gardeners may have controlled Nightsong and Harvest Hall, possibly up to Blackhaven or even the Swann lands.

Or maybe it was a power hungry, expansionist Gardener?

Half-hearted cries for attention often are.

:( poor bae.

[Julia Martell]

:( poor bae.

Seriously! Has anyone her gone to such great lengths just to get their daddy to tell them off!?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I still mixed up Vaith and Godsgrace despite making this quiz. Vaith's location also makes me realize just how lame Arianne and Tyene's attempt to visit Willas was.

Well, Vaith is still a couple of days travel away from Sunspear..

How quickly would Doran and Oberyn have noticed the girls were gone?

[Julia Martell]

Well, Vaith is still a couple of days travel away from Sunspear..

How quickly would Doran and Oberyn have noticed the girls were gone?

How old were they? If they were already grown ups the Princes might have thought they were just going to an orgy in Lemonwood, or something, but if they were still 16, Vaith would have been getting pretty far.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

How old were they? If they were already grown ups the Princes might have thought they were just going to an orgy in Lemonwood, or something, but if they were still 16, Vaith would have been getting pretty far.

Can´t be said, how old they were..

They might have been a bit older already, as Arianne was starting to get a bit depressed by all the matches Doran had proposed by then

[Chebyshov]

Well they were caught in Vaith, so Oberyn/Doran probably noticed a day beforehand, right?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As promised in the Trial by Folly thread, my explanation:

OH and I actually had never heard your take on the numbers of Dorne discrepancy before! That's an interesting perspective, that Quentyn was right all along and the 25,000 is the actual incorrect number. That'd be an interesting approach by Doran, but the idea that Quentyn might have lied to Daenerys about the strength of Dorne always stuck out to me as either a big oversight on GRRM's part or really suspicious. I'd love to hear anything else you have built up around your idea sometime, but I guess that's a discussion for another thread on another day :)

Many people believe that the 50.000 swords and spears for Dorne is too high. Sure, King Daeron I won his Conquest, and bragged about it in a book he wrote himself, by making the dornish armies appear bigger than they were in truth. And certainly, logically, the Princes(ses) of Dorne have, ever since, kept up those lies, as it was rather usefull, keeping a bit of fear in your enemy.

But consider the following two things:

1. Quentyn was send to Daenerys to form an alliance, to enlist her help, to make certain that Dorne would gain the means to defeat the Lannisters, and that they would benefit for their troubles. Lying to Daenerys about the size of your army, is the most stupid thing you can do. If Quentyn promises her an army of 50.000, and she arrives in Dorne to find 30.000, does anyone really think that she'll just shrug and say "Oh well.". 1000 more or less, that might make the difference. Imagine a difference of 20.000, or more..

So Quentyn would have been completely honest to Daenerys. Another argument made in such cases is that, while Quentyn might have believed he was telling the truth, he was simply repeating what Doran had told him, and that Doran had simply been lying. Why on earth would Doran do such a thing?

I mean, upon discovering a lie as grand as such a lie, would any Martell expect Dany not to grow angry? She has fire breathing dragons at her disposal, and lying about your army is a certain way to piss off this young, proud Queen. Should Dorne have lied to her, it would be a certainty that reprecussions would follow.

And seeing as how Doran thinks everything through a lot, it is highly unlikely he never gave any thought to how Daenerys would respond to such lies, had he been plannig to tell one.

2. Something else, that I never actually have seen anyone consider on thread, is that we are talking about a man who has been plotting a war for seventeen years. Sure, the princes of Dorne have been lying about their numbers for more than 100 years.. But Doran knew that one day, he would be at war again, that he would need an army to fight against House Lannister, and that House Lannister has a lot of men to spare. And a period of 17 years is quite some time to secretly prepare, to subtely make your army bigger, to train more men.

Now, I'm not suggesting that Doran threw a spear or a sword in the hand of every child and made him train. But sending Oberyn around to inspire more smallfolk to train in arms? To inspire more knights/fighters to train their children? And to enlist the help of others, friends of old who can provide you with a few thousand men, should you be in need.. (I'll be talking about Doran's friends in my analysis in 2 weeks, ;) ).

We are talking about a man who has been preparing a war for 17 years.. Yet no one seems to have ever considered the possibility that he might actually have been preparing not only himself and his family, but his entire kingdom for this war. And for his vengeance.

[Chebyshov]

<snip>

Very compelling points. But I have a couple of questions:

1. Why did he tell Arianne 50,000 was an exaggeration? Was it because he wanted to chastise her for her "rash" action, and they weren't at the point in the convo yet where he understood her motives and knew to trust her?

2. Quentyn promised Tatters Pentos. Is it possible Prince Mud is just a bit quixotic when it comes to these matters?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

As promised in the Trial by Folly thread, my explanation:

Many people believe that the 50.000 swords and spears for Dorne is too high. Sure, King Daeron I won his Conquest, and bragged about it in a book he wrote himself, by making the dornish armies appear bigger than they were in truth. And certainly, logically, the Princes(ses) of Dorne have, ever since, kept up those lies, as it was rather usefull, keeping a bit of fear in your enemy.

But consider the following two things:

1. Quentyn was send to Daenerys to form an alliance, to enlist her help, to make certain that Dorne would gain the means to defeat the Lannisters, and that they would benefit for their troubles. Lying to Daenerys about the size of your army, is the most stupid thing you can do. If Quentyn promises her an army of 50.000, and she arrives in Dorne to find 30.000, does anyone really think that she'll just shrug and say "Oh well.". 1000 more or less, that might make the difference. Imagine a difference of 20.000, or more..

So Quentyn would have been completely honest to Daenerys. Another argument made in such cases is that, while Quentyn might have believed he was telling the truth, he was simply repeating what Doran had told him, and that Doran had simply been lying. Why on earth would Doran do such a thing?

I mean, upon discovering a lie as grand as such a lie, would any Martell expect Dany not to grow angry? She has fire breathing dragons at her disposal, and lying about your army is a certain way to piss off this young, proud Queen. Should Dorne have lied to her, it would be a certainty that reprecussions would follow.

And seeing as how Doran thinks everything through a lot, it is highly unlikely he never gave any thought to how Daenerys would respond to such lies, had he been plannig to tell one.

2. Something else, that I never actually have seen anyone consider on thread, is that we are talking about a man who has been plotting a war for seventeen years. Sure, the princes of Dorne have been lying about their numbers for more than 100 years.. But Doran knew that one day, he would be at war again, that he would need an army to fight against House Lannister, and that House Lannister has a lot of men to spare. And a period of 17 years is quite some time to secretly prepare, to subtely make your army bigger, to train more men.

Now, I'm not suggesting that Doran threw a spear or a sword in the hand of every child and made him train. But sending Oberyn around to inspire more smallfolk to train in arms? To inspire more knights/fighters to train their children? And to enlist the help of others, friends of old who can provide you with a few thousand men, should you be in need.. (I'll be talking about Doran's friends in my analysis in 2 weeks, ;) ).

We are talking about a man who has been preparing a war for 17 years.. Yet no one seems to have ever considered the possibility that he might actually have been preparing not only himself and his family, but his entire kingdom for this war. And for his vengeance.

1. Dany will hardly notice that that the numbers are a bit off. You simply can't keep track of military resources that size, not with the given technology. And of course Doran is an idiot who already ruined Arianne and his own authority in Dorne because he plays his cards too close to his chest. Maybe Oberyn as well.

Your theory would require him to lie to Arianne as well.

2. That's not possible. There are economic boundaries no Prince can cross. He needs a given percentage of people working in civilian jobs, otherwise the Dornishmen literally starve to death.

2. Quentyn promised Tatters Pentos. Is it possible Prince Mud is just a bit quixotic when it comes to these matters?

The only way Quentyn could make good on that promise would be with Dany's swords already in Essos, and maybe a dragon. Dornish spears can't. Not a naval invasion.

[Julia Martell]

Very compelling points. But I have a couple of questions:

1. Why did he tell Arianne 50,000 was an exaggeration? Was it because he wanted to chastise her for her "rash" action, and they weren't at the point in the convo yet where he understood her motives and knew to trust her?

2. Quentyn promised Tatters Pentos. Is it possible Prince Mud is just a bit quixotic when it comes to these matters?

Poor, poor little Qunetyn. Does anyone else just want to give him a hug?

Anyway, here are two things I noticed during rereads:

From The Soiled Knight:

“I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn,” Ser Arys said, “but all agree that he was a great knight.”

“A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say.”

Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne’s treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn’s page.

“My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man’s hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs,” she went on, “so spare me all your pious talk of soiled cloaks. It is not our love that has dishonored you, it is the monsters you have served and the brutes you’ve called your brothers.”

When she says "my uncle" in this context, does she mean Oberyn or Lewyn? I always attributed that kick ass line to Prince Lewyn, but rereading it it seems like she might mean Oberyn.

From aSoS Tyrion V:

“It was when I visited Casterly Rock with my mother, her consort, and my sister Elia. I was, oh, fourteen, fifteen, thereabouts, Elia a year older. Your brother and sister were eight or nine, as I recall, and you had just been born.”

Isn't it curious that Oberyn says "her consort" instead of "my father"? Do dornish spouses get such a short end of the stick that, not only do they not get a courtesy title, but they'll can't even claim their children? Is this a second husband she married after being widowed? (I immediately head canon him to be much, much younger than her.) Did Oberyn and his father have such a crapy relationship that he does't call him "father" even indirectly?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

From The Soiled Knight:

When she says "my uncle" in this context, does she mean Oberyn or Lewyn? I always attributed that kick ass line to Prince Lewyn, but rereading it it seems like she might mean Oberyn.

Definitely Oberyn. Even if Lewyn spent some time prior to Robert's Rebellion in Dorne (rather unlikely, he got a job in KL), Arianne would be too young to remember much of it.

[Chebyshov]

2. That's not possible. There are economic boundaries no Prince can cross. He needs a given percentage of people working in civilian jobs, otherwise the Dornishmen literally starve to death.

The only way Quentyn could make good on that promise would be with Dany's swords already in Essos, and maybe a dragon. Dornish spears can't. Not a naval invasion.

Well, Dornishman rely more on trade than harvesting, but yeah that's a point. Also, are you saying Quentyn was basing the Pentos-deal on the expectation of having an army/dragon with which to fight, not that it's representative of a bigger pattern of him making grandiose promises?

Poor, poor little Qunetyn. Does anyone else just want to give him a hug?

Anyway, here are two things I noticed during rereads:

From The Soiled Knight:

When she says "my uncle" in this context, does she mean Oberyn or Lewyn? I always attributed that kick ass line to Prince Lewyn, but rereading it it seems like she might mean Oberyn.

From aSoS Tyrion V:

Isn't it curious that Oberyn says "her consort" instead of "my father"? Do dornish spouses get such a short end of the stick that, not only do they not get a courtesy title, but they'll can't even claim their children? Is this a second husband she married after being widowed? (I immediately head canon him to be much, much younger than her.) Did Oberyn and his father have such a crapy relationship that he does't call him "father" even indirectly?

I want to make Quent a bowl of matzo ball soup and pat him on the head.

Also, holy shit, good catches. I'm thinking now that may have been Oberyn's line, not Lewyn, because she refers to the later specifically as her "great uncle" not two paragraphs before. Disappointing, because I kind of have developed a weird obsession with Lewyn and am dying for new info.

As for Mama Martell, I have to ask an unpleasant question of you: do you consider the show semi-canonical at all?

[Hrafntýr]

Definitely Oberyn. Even if Lewyn spent some time prior to Robert's Rebellion in Dorne (rather unlikely, he got a job in KL), Arianne would be too young to remember much of it.

Though it could be a cherished piece of family tradition, Lewyn's response when ribbed about his vows.

(I did always assume it was Oberyn because of the age thing, but now I kind of like the idea it was Lewyn, which I hadn't considered!)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, Dornishman rely more on trade than harvesting, but yeah that's a point. Also, are you saying Quentyn was basing the Pentos-deal on the expectation of having an army/dragon with which to fight, not that it's representative of a bigger pattern of him making grandiose promises?

I don't know. It's the only way he could make good on his promise, but idiots making promises they can't keep would be nothing new.

[Julia Martell]

As for Mama Martell, I have to ask an unpleasant question of you: do you consider the show semi-canonical at all?

Why? Because he said "our father" took them to CR in that one of two good Oberyn scenes?

Anyway, I'm working very hard on pretending the show doesn't exist at the moment. I'm using will power and gin. Needless to say it's not working, every time someone brings it up I get an uncontrollable urge to bitch.