daskool Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Who's blaming Putin's support for anything? You said Putin made the right choice. Putin's choice was and still is to support Assad. How was that the right choice? Considering the West in general did shit nothing about the Syrian civil war for ages that in any way opposed Putin, it would appear his strategy of "support Assad" at best did absolutely nothing. So one wonders why you think this was the right move. I think the take away for me is probably don't give money and arms to Muslim 'freedom fighters'. You'd think we'd learned that lesson in Afghanistan but obviously not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Except for you know...in those places that it has in the center and north of the country?They are continuing their takeover of Anbar province and are claiming more territory in Syria. The Governor of Anbar is asking for US troops to help them. Iraqi army forces and Anbar tribesman fighting with them are threatening to abandon their weapons to ISIS and flee if the US doesn't send ground forces to help. So despite airstrikes, ISIS continues to advance and are doing quite well militarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suttree Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Well yeah, it's a complex situation with rapid changes on the ground. The above is a bit different from you claiming that they haven't stopped the IS advances at all however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Well yeah, it's a complex situation with rapid changes on the ground. The above is a bit different from you claiming that they haven't stopped the IS advances at all however. They haven't been terribly effective to be honest. I've read that the US air force is getting frustrated. They'd like to be doing more sorties but they don't have anyone to give them good targets. That could mean more direct involvement for Western forces. I hope not but what else do you do when even our own military says air power alone will not stop ISIS and they have vowed to stop ISIS?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 People are learning how to deal with air warfare. We could attempt to go back to world war 2 carpet type bombing but the will turn more people against us. There isn't a good optition here. If we select troops for the ground we need 200,000-300,000 from us and another 200,000 from nato. This needs to be a TOTAL victory. We would also have to be there for 10 years. instead of pumping oil we should add solar inslations and stuff liek that to help the iraqis as well. Jobs are nice but giving them the infastructure to keep jobs going afterward is essential. If I remember correctly most parts of the year they have 12 hours of sun and since rain isn't the biggest thing solar should be awesome. As for their government sturcture maybe we should cut Iraq into 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 People are learning how to deal with air warfare. We could attempt to go back to world war 2 carpet type bombing but the will turn more people against us. There isn't a good optition here. If we select troops for the ground we need 200,000-300,000 from us and another 200,000 from nato. This needs to be a TOTAL victory. We would also have to be there for 10 years. instead of pumping oil we should add solar inslations and stuff liek that to help the iraqis as well. Jobs are nice but giving them the infastructure to keep jobs going afterward is essential. If I remember correctly most parts of the year they have 12 hours of sun and since rain isn't the biggest thing solar should be awesome. As for their government sturcture maybe we should cut Iraq into 3. That's correct. Daesh are entrenched in hundreds of villages, towns and cities in Iraq & Syria. If they have any sense, and I think they do, they'll be copying HAMAS and digging tunnels and fortifications in civilian neighborhoods. Air power is useless in this scenario, the only way to force them out is a ground attack with infantry, which will likely mean hundreds of American dead and thousands more dead Sunni non combatants. To count on the Iraqi army to do this is laughable, and the Kurds and Shia militia have neither the men, equipment or training. We could ask Assad and the Iranians but that would up another hornets nest so we won't go there. Further the will and means to launch such a war is completely absent in the west, no politician will be able to sell this to a war weary electorate. Combine that with the fact that most western nations are already fiscally stretched and/or mired in economic recession, the trillions of dollars needed to sustain such a war is just not there. Daesh have won, to pretend otherwise is delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 That's correct. Daesh are entrenched in hundreds of villages, towns and cities in Iraq & Syria. If they have any sense, and I think they do, they'll be copying HAMAS and digging tunnels and fortifications in civilian neighborhoods. Air power is useless in this scenario, the only way to force them out is a ground attack with infantry, which will likely mean hundreds of American dead and thousands more dead Sunni non combatants. To count on the Iraqi army to do this is laughable, and the Kurds and Shia militia have neither the men, equipment or training. We could ask Assad and the Iranians but that would up another hornets nest so we won't go there. Further the will and means to launch such a war is completely absent in the west, no politician will be able to sell this to a war weary electorate. Combine that with the fact that most western nations are already fiscally stretched and/or mired in economic recession, the trillions of dollars needed to sustain such a war is just not there. Daesh have won, to pretend otherwise is delusional. That isn't the complete case yet but yes it looks like that. The biggest problem with groups like the daesh is the eventual implosion that they will suffer. All it takes is one littelfinger and the whole thing will unravel. Also Turkey or egypt can hold them.... theoritcally. People on this board seem not to understand the situation in the west. Its an easy fix but the problem is there is no will powe to do anything. Governments and people are apathetic at this point that its made democracy give way to oligarchies. Our and everybody elses problem right now is really what I like to call official corruption. its legal. It's not just governments but companies as well. The problem is that corporations are literally sitting on tons of cash. There is no reinvestment and there is no will power to force them out of their state of sit and do nothing. Recently, Starbucks seems to be helping- a little but we still haven't seen the necessary adjustment from the two most active industries- the software and tech companies and the healthcare companies. Another problem is noe profits and charties but that is a different quagmire that might take weeks to explain since I can't get the hard data I need to prove the most likely explanation for the blow up in both those industries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Apparently Turkey bombed PKK/YPG forces yesterday. Story is developing. If this is true then Erdogan at least showed his true face for everyone to see, bright and clear. For him and other Turkish hardliners, the Kurds were always the "true" enemies, not IS. Turkey has supported jihadists (Nusra, IS) for over two years, not only to fight Assad but the PKK/YPG Kurds as well. Time for the West to face the ugly truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darzin Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Basically yeah ISIS weakens Turkey's enemies so why would they do anything else? Still pretty despicable though. is the eventual implosion that they will suffer. I don't know that this will necessarily happen though. The Taliban had a pretty good grip on Afghanistan until America invaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Basically yeah ISIS weakens Turkey's enemies so why would they do anything else? Still pretty despicable though. I don't know that this will necessarily happen though. The Taliban had a pretty good grip on Afghanistan until America invaded. The difference between the taliban and the Daesh is that the Daesh are made up of other former groups that they assimilated. The Taliban from what i remember was pretty homogenous at the start and grew from there. The daesh probably kept some of the other group leaders alive and when things stall or die down they are going to go back looking into their own self interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darzin Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Yes they did but the other groups joined because Daesh was winning, unless the start losing it should hold and even then they outnumber every one of the assimilated groups and I don't think they are the type of people you want to cross. Plus more and more of their recruits are foreign fighters or directly trained by them. I don't think them winning would create a power vacuum it would create a tribal structure focused on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suttree Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Apparently Turkey bombed PKK/YPG forces yesterday. Story is developing.If this is true then Erdogan at least showed his true face for everyone to see, bright and clear. The Kurdish forces seem to have attacked a base in Turkey. Turkish fighter jets struck Kurdish insurgent positions in southeastern Turkey on Monday, shaking the country’s fragile peace process with the Kurds and demonstrating the complexities surrounding the American-led coalition fighting the Islamic State, which Turkey is under heavy pressure to join.Turkish news reports said the strikes had been aimed at fighters of the Kurdistan Worker’s Party, known as the P.K.K., and were in retaliation for the shelling of a Turkish military base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Suttree,Wow, this is going to make things so much easier for Daesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Yes they did but the other groups joined because Daesh was winning, unless the start losing it should hold and even then they outnumber every one of the assimilated groups and I don't think they are the type of people you want to cross. Plus more and more of their recruits are foreign fighters or directly trained by them. I don't think them winning would create a power vacuum it would create a tribal structure focused on them. I think we will disagree on this point- groups that take power like this and have fighters from all different places will eventually start picking each other apart. It will be interesting to see such a movement like that evolved if it doesn't The Kurdish forces seem to have attacked a base in Turkey. For the love of.... I hate people. Turkey sucks don't get me wrong but this was the dumbest thing to do. Turkey shouldn't have bombed... are we taking bets on how long it takes for this to nose dive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Turkey cares more about keeping the Kurds from getting uppity then anything else. The Kurds are idiots for attacking Turkey but, hey, that describes every group in the Middle East involved in this. I wonder if the strikes against Turkey were for not giving any aid in the recent fighting near their border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Turkey cares more about keeping the Kurds from getting uppity then anything else. The Kurds are idiots for attacking Turkey but, hey, that describes every group in the Middle East involved in this. I wonder if the strikes against Turkey were for not giving any aid in the recent fighting near their border.The Kurds are not idiots but desperate. Quite a difference. For almost two years Turkey supported jihadists in their fight against Assad and democratic Kurds who dare to give women equal rights and a Kalashnikov. And now Erdogan still (indirectly) supports IS by not letting Kurdish reserve fighters and humanitarian aid into Syria. And not one Kurd I know wants Turkish military intervention but just that Erdogan allows the Kurds to finish the IS job. Again quite a difference. I repeat: Kurds are not idiotic but desperate because their relatives are facing genocide. Erdogan can be happy that Öcalan is calming the Kurds down. A true voice of reason. When Erdogan equaled IS and the PKK (who are for equal women rights, democracy, secularism and Kurdish civil rights like speaking one's own language) he told the world evth there is to know about him and his islamist AKP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 For everyone here who wants to learn sth about the Kurdish struggle for civil rights just google LEYLA ZANA, a woman sentenced to 15 years prison (the prosecutor even wanted death penalty) for speaking her Kurdish language and fighting for civil rights. Was that ever a topic in the US? And this is a NATO member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suttree Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Was that ever a topic in the US?And this is a NATO member... Yes it was. A question in return. Do you do anything besides whinge endlessly about the stupidity and evil of the west? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Yes it was. A question in return. Do you do anything besides whinge endlessly about the stupidity and evil of the west?No personal attacks please. Well to answer your question: voices of reason here in Germany, people who truly know the region, the Players, the conflicting interests have forecasted exactly what happens now, 3 and a half years ago...this clusterfuck is the consequence of driving against a wall even though you saw it coming from a mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suttree Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 No personal attacks please. Realistically portraying the content of your posts isn't a personal attack. Shall I pull samples for you? In this instance you actually double posted in order to fit it in. Well to answer your question: voices of reason here in Germany, people who truly know the region, the Players, the conflicting interests have forecasted exactly what happens now, 3 and a half years ago...this clusterfuck is the consequence of driving against a wall even though you saw it coming from a mile. 1. That doesn't answer the question. 2. So it's your contention that "voices of reason" in Germany alone had a magical solution to this mess 4 years ago. Interesting, look forward to reading about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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