Lord of Nutella Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Let is assume Jon survives his stabbing, and let us ignore all the different possibilities of how this might happen as it is not the point of this thread.People are divided over Jon's future. Some think he is going to be KitN, others believe he is going to be king of the IT, and so on. And then there are people who are of the opinion that he will stay LC. In this post I want to point out why I think this is very unlikely.First, some logical reasons:After Jon being seemingly murdered in public, hell will break lose at the wall. The watch being wiped out is a distinct possibility. In that case,Jon's NW time is definetly over. If the watch survives the fight, they will need a leader. Jon might be carryed away by wildlings or Mel's men. The first will probably keep him, the latter might hand him over to his own men ( but that isnt even sure, as a non-NW Jon is obviously of more use to Stannis then Jon as LC is). If Jon is not with his men, they will take a new leader, a leader who might label Jon a traitor. If he doesnt, there will be subordination issues when Jon shows up again.If Jon is with his men, they will still choose another one as he will probably not be in any shape to lead.If the wildlings pick him up from the ground, he might end up a prisoner. Or they might end up working together in order to defeat the Boltons.Regarding this topic, i can only recommend reading this outstanding series of essays by cantuse:http://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/the-mannifestoBut obviously one can argue against all that. Regardless, those thoughts are not my main reason to think Jon's time as a crow are over.It is the following:Jons ADWD arc is about him being a leader who makes wise choices at one front ( wildlings/others) but not so wise choices on another front (the Boltons) what ends up biting him in the ass.The point is the way grrm chose to let Jons mistakes fall back on him.There would have been countless possibilities: A Bolton assassin trying to take him out. A battle against Bolton- friendly forces with severe losses for the NW, undermining Jons efforts to prepare the wall for the others.And whatnot.I think if grrms goal had been to just teach Jon a lesson about his duties as LC and keep him on his post, he would have chosen something like this.Instead Jon gets stabbed by some of his own men. What better way could grrm have found to get Jon out of the Watch in a plausible way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiliana Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I think so as well, I don't think Jon staying solely at the Wall can serve the narrative any longer But I don't think the Watch will collapse, Jon will simply choose to no longer follow his oaths and go rogue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 But I don't think the Watch will collapse, Jon will simply choose to no longer follow his oaths and go rogue Unless revival causes a massive change in his personality, which I don't think will happen, that won't happen. The NW being completely obliterated or them abandoning Jon makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiliana Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Unless revival causes a massive change in his personality, which I don't think will happen, that won't happen. The NW being completely obliterated or them abandoning Jon makes more sense. How does that require a big change in personality? He was basically going rogue in his last ADWD chapter. I think it would be cheap to make it so Jon has no choice but to go, it displays nothing about his character and just makes him a passenger and not the driver in his own storyline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 How does that require a big change in personality? He was basically going rogue in his last ADWD chapter. I think it would be cheap to make it so Jon has no choice but to go, it displays nothing about his character and just makes him a passenger and not the driver in his own storylineRamsay threatened to attack the Wall and kill the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He clearly did not intend to abandon the NW. Remember, he swore a vow before a heart tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamoDega Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I think so as well, I don't think Jon staying solely at the Wall can serve the narrative any longer This Jon's character arc is basically the "hero in the making" thing, the wall served to toughen him as man and fighter, and combined with the experience beyond the wall he passed through a lot of stuff that enriched him and gave us an idea of what kind of hero he will be The near to death experience is not just a cheap cliffhanger, it will be like a spiritual line that split the past and the future Hopefully to save him they don't use some magic clichè that change him as character... even if he end up getting a white stripe in the hairs i will see him as a fucking "good Darkstar" :D Please no :D I will like it to have importance, but just on the spiritual level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Nutella Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Dito i mean, ad you said, in the ladt chapter he was just intending to leave, even though he wanted to return after doing his business. But now he has been stabbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdw4950 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 really doubt hes just dead and gone but i kind of hope he simply survives rather than being resurrected. i kind of see that as being a cop out for his character. 'ahh we need him to break his vows without consequence...kill him and bring him back!'. for a series with so much back story and nuance it seems kind of like a cheap technicality since weve already seen characters get brought back to life. it cushions the blow too much. im probably in the heavy minority with this thinking but its my view. i have no clue how theyll manage to bring everything together but i just hope its a little more meaningful than jons dead, jons back, everyone understands that means hes free to leave so he says bye and thats that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamoDega Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 really doubt hes dead but i kind of hope he just survives rather than being resurrected. i kind of see that as being a cop out for his character. 'ahh we need him to break his vows without consequence...kill him and bring him back!'. for a series with so much back story and nuance it seems kind of like a cheap technicality since weve already seen characters get brought back to life. it cushions the blow too much. im probably in the heavy minority with this thinking but its my view. i have no clue how theyll manage to bring everything together but i just hope its a little more meaningful than jons dead, jons back, everyone understands that means hes free to leave so he says bye and thats that. My hope is he get saved close-to-dead-but-still-alive and that GRRM use some trick not to resurrect but to make faster his recovery The thing is, as much is going to be important see Jon suffer some kind of consequence (if does'nt happen it will make cheap the experience itself), for the narrative flow i doubt anybody want to see him waste months and months in a bed Only good alternative imho is if GRRM full that void time with a lot of Stannis war campaign... ...and imho is what is going to happen, with Jon willing to go help Stannis against Ramsay. I can even see him he escape before get the doctor ok A duel between Jon that's the superior swordman but still suffer from injuries VS Ramsay and his crazy savage butcher style sound legit ASOIAF material :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Nutella Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 The thing is, defeating the Boltons is gonna be tough without Jons help. He is a good alternative to Bolton for the northern lords, and Stannis has to weaken Bolton's strebgth before he can meet him on the battlefield. Additional, Jon knows the dreadfort, what might come in handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia H. Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 To the OP: I agree that it a very strong possibility. The stabbing is likely to be a turning point in Jon's story arc. Also, there are other story lines connected with Jon without Jon being aware of it at this point (like Robb's will or Jon's Targaryen parentage), which also makes it unlikely that he will remain forever on the Wall. This Jon's character arc is basically the "hero in the making" thing, the wall served to toughen him as man and fighter, and combined with the experience beyond the wall he passed through a lot of stuff that enriched him and gave us an idea of what kind of hero he will be The near to death experience is not just a cheap cliffhanger, it will be like a spiritual line that split the past and the future Hopefully to save him they don't use some magic clichè that change him as character... even if he end up getting a white stripe in the hairs i will see him as a fucking "good Darkstar" :DPlease no :D I will like it to have importance, but just on the spiritual level I wholeheartedly agree with this. Well-said. I especially love the point about the spiritual level. :D :agree: As for Jon's way out of the NW, though it is certainly possible that the NW will be destroyed in the chaos following the assassination attempt or that the Wall will come tumbling down, I don't really think that Jon will get an "easy" or too obvious opportunity to forswear his vows. It will probably be a conscious decision, one that he will have to live with for the rest of his life. Desertion is an important motif in Jon's character arc. I think if he ever truly deserts, it will be because he will make that choice and for good reasons. Another possibility is that with the Others coming (and breaching the Wall), Jon will return as a natural leader, and while he will formally remain the LC, his responsibilities will be extended, and he will become a de facto "king" (or main military-political leader) in the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Nutella Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 I do not think Jon somehow "sliding" into a role of a king or leader of the north is very likely. The lords dont like to subordinate that easy.But i agree that Jon will probably make a conscious decision about leaving the watch. I think this adds to the idea of Jon hooking up woth Stannis, as Stannis would definetly welcome instead of execute him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mb2518 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Jon has been tempted to leave the NW several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia H. Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I do not think Jon somehow "sliding" into a role of a king or leader of the north is very likely. The lords dont like to subordinate that easy.But i agree that Jon will probably make a conscious decision about leaving the watch. I think this adds to the idea of Jon hooking up woth Stannis, as Stannis would definetly welcome instead of execute him. Not in normal circumstances. But with the Others coming? The North currently does not have an accepted leader. Alys Karstark's story shows that Jon can be regarded as "the next thing to a king" in crisis, so such a development would not be without precedent. Besides, I can imagine that Jon would not go the way Robb did, declaring himself King-in-the-North, but it would be very much in character with him if he simply accepted the responsibility and performed the duties of a king in a situation of war and crisis, and these duties would go beyond simply defending the Wall (which might cease to exist anyway). Of course, this is just one of the possibilities, there are other roads for him to take as well, and desertion is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeygigs Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Jon has been tempted to leave the NW several times. Yup, and the last time he broke his vows completely to go fight Ramsay Bolton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I don't think so. Jon knows the true threat and the Wall is where he hopes to stop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 When people say things like "Jon being resurrected would just seem cheap" it boggles my mind. Resurrections have been written into the story for a reason, and it wasn't so Cat could hang more Freys. Obviously there is a reason 2 minor characters were reborn, and that reason is clearly so a major character can be brought back at some point WITHOUT IT BEING CHEAP. That's the reason you write it into the story before hand, so you don't have eagles or killer trees like from LOTR that just pop up exactly when you need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Nutella Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 @antz: Jon can go back to the wall- with all the manpower of the north to man it.@aryagonakill: i agree, but you are being unfair to lotr. Both the eagles and the trees (damnit, forgot the name, ad they are no ents) are being introduced before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 @antz: Jon can go back to the wall- with all the manpower of the north to man it. That is what he was hoping to do by aiding Stannis against the Boltons and uniting the North to defend the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Nutella Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Correc, but i think he will come to the conclusion that this doesnt work and that he needs to take the initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.