Cat's secret(?)

[SixPence]

Just throwing out a bone here, not going to run too deep into it. But one thing that always struck me as odd in the books is how Arya comments she and Jon are the only children of Ned that look like they do, and how similar they look. Most people read into this that Ned isn't Jons father and started investigating the classic R+L=J. However, if the looks mean Ned is unlikely as Jon's father. Then what about Arya?

People generally disregard this point because it doesn't fit with R+L=J, and rationalise that she is the odd sheep out, but that kills off the basis of the theory Jon isn't Neds bastard as well. And Arya is too young to be included in any of this, Cat and Ned had been married for a long time when she was born.

However...

Roughly around the time Arya must've been conceived, Ned wasn't in Winterfell. In fact, Arya was born a few months after the Greyjoy rebellion, when Ned and Robert was off to fight Balon Greyjoy. Did Cat have a secret?

She even mentions in the books how the first few years in Winterfell she was so alone and alienated and how hard it was. The Stark traits are clear, so is it possible that Benjen seduced Ashara Dayne and Catelyn Tully/Stark?

He's the only Stark that really would've had the ability to impregnate both women, and the most likely common demoninator for Jon and Arya. And he looks remarkably like Jon.

The logical timeline would be that R+L really doesn't equal Jon, but Edric Dayne aka. Young Ned. Eddard Stark brings young Edric Dayne to Starfall with Dawn to be raised under Daynes protection. Having the trueborn heir to the kingdoms as your ward is a great honor, but in return Ned takes Jon as his and brings him to Winterfell. Ashara Dayne kills herself in grief over her child being taken from her. At Winterfell, Benjen refuses responsibility and Ned has to take care of Jon himself. Benjen takes the black, but comes back to Winterfell during the Greyjoy rebellion. And Cat finds her comfort with Benjen, 9 months later Arya is born.

This leaves us with:

R+L = Edric Dayne - Lord of a House whose sword is called Dawn (Lightbringer?) and born in a tower that was burnt to the ground, travelling around with the BwB. Before Ned's dream about not protecting the children he had sent Edric Dayne with Beric Dondarrion to bring justice to the Mountain.

B+A = Jon Snow

B+C = Arya Stark

Following this logic, all of them would be carrying the physical traits of their fathers.

[David Selig]

Usually it's the other Stark children which aren't ned's according to the crackpot theories. ;)

But one thing that always struck me as odd in the books is how Arya comments she and Jon are the only children of Ned that look like they do, and how similar they look. Most people read into this that Ned isn't Jons father and started investigating the classic R+L=J.

Why would people do that? Arya and Jon are the only Stark kids who look like Ned.

The logical timeline would be that R+L really doesn't equal Jon, but Edric Dayne aka. Young Ned.

Except for the small detail that Edric Dayne was born 4 years later (he is 12 in ASOS).

[shadow282]

Absolutely not. If Arya was a bastard, Cat would be the world's biggest hypocrite for being so awful to Jon but loving Arya.

Kids don't always look the same. Arya just looks like a Stark, it's not a huge mystery.

[SixPence]

Absolutely not. If Arya was a bastard, Cat would be the world's biggest hypocrite for being so awful to Jon but loving Arya.

Kids don't always look the same. Arya just looks like a Stark, it's not a huge mystery.

Not really. Arya would be hers, and Jon wouldn't be.

Arya and Jon are described with stark traits but not as resembling Ned. They are more often compared to his siblings then himself.

And Jons age doesn't match the R+L=J theory either. Nor does Aegons age match any of the theories surrounding him. If you are hiding Rhaegars child in your household from Robert Baratheon, you're not exactly going to go out and say: "Hey yeah, this kid with no living parents and Targaryen traits was born in a house loyal to the Targaryens roughly 9 months after Rhaegar "kidnapped" your beloved Lyanna. But he's not their child, not at all!"

I think you can safely assume that if Edric Dayne is Rhaegar and Lyannas son they would claim him to be a few years younger, enough to make it unlikely to even consider a connection.

Also consider the implications that B+A=J instead of R+L=J. That would make Jon the heir to a sword that is pretty much synonymous with Lightbringer. Perfectly coinciding with Melissandres visions where she only see Snow, when asking for Azor Ahai.

EDIT: The above quote also basically just points out that Jon could just as well be Ned's bastard son with Ashara Dayne or anyone else he met at the Harrenhal tourney, when it was Brandon who was betrothed to Catelyn. If you want to hang on to the R+L=J theory on the basis that Jon doesn't look like the other Stark children you can't ignore the implications that makes for Arya. I also wonder how you would suggest Ned impregnated Cat with Arya whilst being busy with the Greyjoy rebellion? Cat was in Winterfell, Ned was at the Stony Shore...

[shadow282]

Not really. Arya would be hers, and Jon wouldn't be.

Arya and Jon are described with stark traits but not as resembling Ned. They are more often compared to his siblings then himself.

And Jons age doesn't match the R+L=J theory either. Nor does Aegons age match any of the theories surrounding him. If you are hiding Rhaegars child in your household from Robert Baratheon, you're not exactly going to go out and say: "Hey yeah, this kid with no living parents and Targaryen traits was born in a house loyal to the Targaryens roughly 9 months after Rhaegar "kidnapped" your beloved Lyanna. But he's not their child, not at all!"

I think you can safely assume that if Edric Dayne is Rhaegar and Lyannas son they would claim him to be a few years younger, enough to make it unlikely to even consider a connection.

Also consider the implications that B+A=J instead of R+L=J. That would make Jon the heir to a sword that is pretty much synonymous with Lightbringer. Perfectly coinciding with Melissandres visions where she only see Snow, when asking for Azor Ahai.

EDIT: The above quote also basically just points out that Jon could just as well be Ned's bastard son with Ashara Dayne or anyone else he met at the Harrenhal tourney, when it was Brandon who was betrothed to Catelyn. If you want to hang on to the R+L=J theory on the basis that Jon doesn't look like the other Stark children you can't ignore the implications that makes for Arya. I also wonder how you would suggest Ned impregnated Cat with Arya whilst being busy with the Greyjoy rebellion? Cat was in Winterfell, Ned was at the Stony Shore...

She hates Jon because he's a daily reminder that Ned cheated on her. So yes, it would be incredibly hypocritical to hate the daily reminder that your husband cheated on you but love the daily reminder that you cheated on your husband.

Also, Ned isn't an idiot. Do you think if the timeline made it impossible for him to be Arya's father he wouldn't figure that out?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue R+L=J because Jon doesn't look like the other Stark children. It's an incredibly stupid and incorrect argument. There's much much better evidence for it.

[David Selig]

Arya and Jon are described with stark traits but not as resembling Ned. They are more often compared to his siblings then himself.

No, they are not. Arya was compared to Lyanna once. Jon was never compared to Benjen or Lyanna. On the other hand right in Arya's first chapter:

Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father’s face, as she did.

Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn.

I think you can safely assume that if Edric Dayne is Rhaegar and Lyannas son they would claim him to be a few years younger, enough to make it unlikely to even consider a connection.

And how the hell did they pull this off? "Hi, here is out child, he looks 5 year old, but is actually only 1 year old."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Just throwing out a bone here, not going to run too deep into it. But one thing that always struck me as odd in the books is how Arya comments she and Jon are the only children of Ned that look like they do, and how similar they look. Most people read into this that Ned isn't Jons father and started investigating the classic R+L=J. However, if the looks mean Ned is unlikely as Jon's father. Then what about Arya?

People generally disregard this point because it doesn't fit with R+L=J, and rationalise that she is the odd sheep out, but that kills off the basis of the theory Jon isn't Neds bastard as well. And Arya is too young to be included in any of this, Cat and Ned had been married for a long time when she was born.

However...

(1) Roughly around the time Arya must've been conceived, Ned wasn't in Winterfell. In fact, Arya was born a few months after the Greyjoy rebellion, when Ned and Robert was off to fight Balon Greyjoy. Did Cat have a secret?

She even mentions in the books how the first few years in Winterfell she was so alone and alienated and how hard it was.(2) The Stark traits are clear, so is it possible that Benjen seduced Ashara Dayne and Catelyn Tully/Stark?

He's the only Stark that really would've had the ability to impregnate both women, and the most likely common demoninator for Jon and Arya. And he looks remarkably like Jon.

(3)The logical timeline would be that R+L really doesn't equal Jon, but Edric Dayne aka. Young Ned. Eddard Stark brings young Edric Dayne to Starfall with Dawn to be raised under Daynes protection. Having the trueborn heir to the kingdoms as your ward is a great honor, but in return Ned takes Jon as his and brings him to Winterfell. Ashara Dayne kills herself in grief over her child being taken from her. At Winterfell, Benjen refuses responsibility and Ned has to take care of Jon himself. Benjen takes the black, but comes back to Winterfell during the Greyjoy rebellion. And Cat finds her comfort with Benjen, 9 months later Arya is born.

This leaves us with:

(4) R+L = Edric Dayne - Lord of a House whose sword is called Dawn (Lightbringer?) and born in a tower that was burnt to the ground, travelling around with the BwB. Before Ned's dream about not protecting the children he had sent Edric Dayne with Beric Dondarrion to bring justice to the Mountain.

(5) B+A = Jon Snow

(6) B+C = Arya Stark

Following this logic, all of them would be carrying the physical traits of their fathers.

(1) Arya was born early in the year 289 AC, meaning she was conceived in 288 AC. The Greyjoy Rebellion began in 289 AC, and thus, Ned was in Winterfell when Arya's conception occured.

(2) No. Catelyn holds dear to family, duty and honour, and none allow her an affair. Above all else, Benjen was 13 or younger when the tourney at Harrenhal took place. Not the kind of person to seduce a woman somewhere in the age of 18 - 23, right?

(3) Edric Dayne was born in 287 AC. Lyanna died in 283 AC.

(4) No, Edric is 4 years too young for that

(5) No, Benjen could only have slept with Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal, and Jon Snow was born a year too late for that. The Tourney occured in 281 AC, any child conceived there would have been born in either late 281 AC, or in 282 AC. Jon Snow was born in late 283 AC.

(6) No. While it would be possible as far as the timeline is concerned, both Catelyn's inner thoughts concerning bastards and her love regarding Ned speak against this. Also, the reasoning used is wrong, as Arya was conceived in 288 AC, months before the Greyjoy Rebellion began.

[JonBranRickon]

I would say that is anyone is not hers it is Sansa. Who does not act like the othe Starksand more like LF.

[David Selig]

I would say that is anyone is not hers it is Sansa. Who does not act like the othe Starksand more like LF.

You mean she actually uses her brain?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I would say that is anyone is not hers it is Sansa. Who does not act like the othe Starksand more like LF.

Sansa is not like the others Starks? She's the most Ned-like of the bunch. "Oh... look, a nice person! s/he's totally not trying to fool me and believes in honour and stuff and will do the right thing. I'm so gonna trust them :)".

[cassidyaj]

I think the fact that Jon and arya look alike is a subtle hint at R+L=J. Arya is supposed to look like Lyanna, therefore Jon must also look like Lyanna. (And Ned and Lyanna must have looked similar, like siblings...).

But good effort. Those timelines always snag me up when I am starting to think I may have put something together.

[SixPence]

No, they are not. Arya was compared to Lyanna once. Jon was never compared to Benjen or Lyanna. On the other hand right in Arya's first chapter:

And how the hell did they pull this off? "Hi, here is out child, he looks 5 year old, but is actually only 1 year old."

Yes, because you would run around and show him off at that point, not when he you could claim he was seven and he actually was eleven for example. Robyn Arryn haven't really been shown safely kept in the Eyre his entire life, the only people who would know the truth would be the people close to him. With all the baby swapping theories going around, I think if there was a good proper baby swap in ASoIaF, it's silly to be looking around for children whos age actually correspond. The scheming masterminds we have seen so far wouldn't be foolish enough to do so. It would be unlikely for someone who hid off a Targaryen babe to be that foolish and get away with it.

@Rhaenys :

(1) Where does it say she was born early in 289 AC? All I see is that she was born in 289 AC, and the Grejoy Rebellion was in 289 AC. There is no clues to when in the year either event happened.

(2) Yes, because hypocricy in characters is so not a theme in ASoIaF? Catelyns hate for Jon, when she doesn't even know if he was conceived before her marriage to Ned could very well mirror the fact he reminds her of her own betrayal, which she would know happened during their marriage. It would make alot more sense then for her to hold family, duty and honor so dear and still harness such hatred for a babe brought in by her husband apparantly to uphold his family, duty and honor. 13 years old, just hit puberty and full of testosteron, about the same age as Jon, Theon, Robb and others have been when they first lay with a woman wouldn't you say? Jon was a little older when he met Ygritte, but not alot. Keep in mind the books operate with a different age. And who says Benjen seduced Ashara? Why couldn't Ashara seduce Benjen at Harrenhal, as a bit of fun. Taming the young wolf?

(3) Explained above

(4) Again, explained above

(5) We don't know when Jon Snow was born. That is kind of the whole point of the R+L=J theory as well.

(6) Again, you're repeating your other points which as already explained aren't that substantial. You're operating with "facts" that are assumptions, thus your theory is as much a theory as mine, yes?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@Rhaenys :

(1) Where does it say she was born early in 289 AC? All I see is that she was born in 289 AC, and the Grejoy Rebellion was in 289 AC. There is no clues to when in the year either event happened.

(2) Yes, because hypocricy in characters is so not a theme in ASoIaF? Catelyns hate for Jon, when she doesn't even know if he was conceived before her marriage to Ned could very well mirror the fact he reminds her of her own betrayal, which she would know happened during their marriage. It would make alot more sense then for her to hold family, duty and honor so dear and still harness such hatred for a babe brought in by her husband apparantly to uphold his family, duty and honor. 13 years old, just hit puberty and full of testosteron, about the same age as Jon, Theon, Robb and others have been when they first lay with a woman wouldn't you say? Jon was a little older when he met Ygritte, but not alot. Keep in mind the books operate with a different age. And who says Benjen seduced Ashara? Why couldn't Ashara seduce Benjen at Harrenhal, as a bit of fun. Taming the young wolf?

(3) Explained above

(4) Again, explained above

(5) We don't know when Jon Snow was born. That is kind of the whole point of the R+L=J theory as well.

(6) Again, you're repeating your other points which as already explained aren't that substantial. You're operating with "facts" that are assumptions, thus your theory is as much a theory as mine, yes?

(1) looking at the timeline, shows that

Specifying 289 AC:

Arya is 9 years old when the royal court is visiting Winterfell in 298 AC. Arya tells Roose Bolton she is 10 years old when he takes Harrenhal in 299 AC. Arya is still 10 after Joffrey Baratheon's wedding, in 300 AC, when she’s on the ship to Braavos. With Arya being 10 in both 299 AC and 300 AC, Arya was 9 turning 10 in 299 AC and 10 turning 11 in 300 AC. This also means that Arya was 8 turning 9 in 298 AC. Arya was thus born in 289 AC.

Specifying when in the year: studying timelines shows us that Joffrey's nameday takes place rather early in the year. A fortnight after Joffrey's nameday, Jon Arryn dies, and roughly two months later, Robert Baratheon arrives at Winterfell, and Arya is 9. As this occurs in 298 AC, Arya's nameday has already been.

In addition, studying timelines will show that Sansa Starks' nameday takes place in the final weeks of the year. Arya and Sansa are "two years" apart, meaning that their births occured somewhere between 1,5 years and 2,5 years from one another. Sansa was born in 286 AC (she will turn 13 within 30 days of her marriage to Tyrion, and by simply counting the days described, we see that more than 30 days pass between Sansa's wedding, and Joffrey's wedding, which occurs on the first day of 300 AC).

So Arya's birth occured in 289 AC, and Sansa's in late 286 AC, yet they are "two" years apart. This will show that the 1,5 option is no longer valid, and the 2,5 option (or close to that) becomes more valid. We get another example: Catelyn and Lysa are further apart in age than Arya and Sansa, yet they also consider themselves to be 2 years apart in age, thereby showing that Catelyn and Lysa are close to the 2,5 years apart, and Arya and Sansa a little less. With Sansa's birth having occured in either the 11th or 12th months of 286 AC, Arya will have been born in the first few months of 289 AC. And as a pregnancy lasts 9 months, her conception thus took place in 288 AC.

(2) But Catelyn hated Jon since day 1. Not since the birth of Arya. So her feelings mirror her own betrayel, even before it occured?

(2)+(3)+(4) a theory should be believable. A ±20 year old seducing a 13 year old (or younger) sounds extremely unlikely. Especially considering that Benjen is called "the pup", and, more importantly, considering that there is absolutely no textual hint towards Benjen + Ashara.

(5) We know the year he was born. We know when Dany was born, we know that Jon was born 8 to 9 months earlier. We might not know the exact, but we know enough.. late 283 AC.

[I S**t Gold]

Not sure on the dates and stuff, but the reason I'm not sold on this is I can't see the payoff narratively.

Ned is dead, Cat is undead. So neither of these characters can provide any resolution for Arya, there's no way to prove it, and if someone did prove it what would that change for Arya? At this late stage of the story there's not a lot of room for parental revelations unless they pay off in a huge way. So R + L = J I can see. That changes a lot. Even if this one is true I just don't see why it matters. She's not angling for succession to a throne.

I'd probably be more amenable to this if we had just finished book one.

[SixPence]

(1) looking at the timeline, shows that

Specifying 289 AC:

Arya is 9 years old when the royal court is visiting Winterfell in 298 AC. Arya tells Roose Bolton she is 10 years old when he takes Harrenhal in 299 AC. Arya is still 10 after Joffrey Baratheon's wedding, in 300 AC, when she’s on the ship to Braavos. With Arya being 10 in both 299 AC and 300 AC, Arya was 9 turning 10 in 299 AC and 10 turning 11 in 300 AC. This also means that Arya was 8 turning 9 in 298 AC. Arya was thus born in 289 AC.

Specifying when in the year: studying timelines shows us that Joffrey's nameday takes place rather early in the year. A fortnight after Joffrey's nameday, Jon Arryn dies, and roughly two months later, Robert Baratheon arrives at Winterfell, and Arya is 9. As this occurs in 298 AC, Arya's nameday has already been.

In addition, studying timelines will show that Sansa Starks' nameday takes place in the final weeks of the year. Arya and Sansa are "two years" apart, meaning that their births occured somewhere between 1,5 years and 2,5 years from one another. Sansa was born in 286 AC (she will turn 13 within 30 days of her marriage to Tyrion, and by simply counting the days described, we see that more than 30 days pass between Sansa's wedding, and Joffrey's wedding, which occurs on the first day of 300 AC).

So Arya's birth occured in 289 AC, and Sansa's in late 286 AC, yet they are "two" years apart. This will show that the 1,5 option is no longer valid, and the 2,5 option (or close to that) becomes more valid. We get another example: Catelyn and Lysa are further apart in age than Arya and Sansa, yet they also consider themselves to be 2 years apart in age, thereby showing that Catelyn and Lysa are close to the 2,5 years apart, and Arya and Sansa a little less. With Sansa's birth having occured in either the 11th or 12th months of 286 AC, Arya will have been born in the first few months of 289 AC. And as a pregnancy lasts 9 months, her conception thus took place in 288 AC.

(2) But Catelyn hated Jon since day 1. Not since the birth of Arya. So her feelings mirror her own betrayel, even before it occured?

(2)+(3)+(4) a theory should be believable. A ±20 year old seducing a 13 year old (or younger) sounds extremely unlikely. Especially considering that Benjen is called "the pup", and, more importantly, considering that there is absolutely no textual hint towards Benjen + Ashara.

(5) We know the year he was born. We know when Dany was born, we know that Jon was born 8 to 9 months earlier. We might not know the exact, but we know enough.. late 283 AC.

(1) Fair enough. Whilst not conclusive, I agree this seems the most likely.

(2) This is a Point of View perception, which means it's unreliable. How much already in the books would be wrong if we were to take all of Cersei's PoV perceptions for granted?

(2, 3, 4) Why does that sound so extremely unlikely, and why is it not believable?

(5) No, we don't know the year he was born. There is no record of him being born. All we know is a PoV CLAIM of when he was born. The R+L=J theory I originally read revolved around a conception at Harrenhal, and Eddard lying about Jon's age. How can we possibly know when he was born when every piece of evidence presented to us by GRR Martin originates from the same PoV source? And this is the case for Young Ned as well, all evidence presented to US in regards to his age originates from the same source (himself).

@I S**t Gold : I'm pretty there would be a payoff if it's true. That's not to say it is, the basis of a theory is that there is room for speculation, either way. I'm pretty sure whatever is true GRR Martin has found a way to give it a surprisingly useful payoff. The main payoff would of course be Edric Dayne as the result of R+L. And the B+A=J. Arya would serve as proof of Benjens seed better carrying the Stark genes over. Also, keep in mind that the line of succession to the throne isn't necessarily an angle to pursue any ways. Who says there must be an Iron Throne at the end? It's the Song of Ice and Fire, not the Game of Thrones (That was just the first book).

[I S**t Gold]

@I S**t Gold : I'm pretty there would be a payoff if it's true. That's not to say it is, the basis of a theory is that there is room for speculation, either way. I'm pretty sure whatever is true GRR Martin has found a way to give it a surprisingly useful payoff. The main payoff would of course be Edric Dayne as the result of R+L. And the B+A=J. Arya would serve as proof of Benjens seed better carrying the Stark genes over. Also, keep in mind that the line of succession to the throne isn't necessarily an angle to pursue any ways. Who says there must be an Iron Throne at the end? It's the Song of Ice and Fire, not the Game of Thrones (That was just the first book).

I agree totally and I find the speculation interesting in itself. I'm sort of basing this on there being two books left and a lot of things left to resolve, so you're definitely right, there's potentially lots of pay off that's worth it. It's probably more accurate to say I'm not sure there's room for it with the amount of books he's planning, but fair play to you. It certainly seems like an interesting furrow to plough.

I think 'who says there must be an Iron Throne at the end?' is one of the most interesting questions in the book, and I'm really glad to see somebody bringing that up. I've often thought that this is a Song of Ice and Fire, not people and crowns, and I've also wondered what happens to everyone when ice and fire meets in the middle. Certainly if you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention. I will stop sidetracking this thread but I wish there was a topic on this.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

(1) Fair enough. Whilst not conclusive, I agree this seems the most likely.

(2) This is a Point of View perception, which means it's unreliable. How much already in the books would be wrong if we were to take all of Cersei's PoV perceptions for granted?

(2, 3, 4) Why does that sound so extremely unlikely, and why is it not believable?

(5) No, we don't know the year he was born. There is no record of him being born. All we know is a PoV CLAIM of when he was born. The R+L=J theory I originally read revolved around a conception at Harrenhal, and Eddard lying about Jon's age. How can we possibly know when he was born when every piece of evidence presented to us by GRR Martin originates from the same PoV source? And this is the case for Young Ned as well, all evidence presented to US in regards to his age originates from the same source (himself).

(2,3,4) I already said why.. We're talking about a 20 year old woman and a boy who is 13 year old, or even younger (12.. 11.. 10..). A woman who gets attention from men, and a boy who is described as a "pup".

And, most importantly, there are no textual hints pointing towards a relationship between Benjen and Ashara. None. If they had been together, and it was part of a theory, there would have been hints.

Your usage of words earlier is an interesting one, though.. taming the young wolf, you said.. why not tame the wild wolf? That's Brandon, and for him and Ashara, there are far more hints..

(5) In addition to the statement of Jon's nameday in the books, we also have GRRM stating that Jon was born 8 or 9 months before Dany.. We know when Dany is born, we can pinpoint that with reasonable specificity. So Jon's moment of birth can be determined roughly as well, which would place him in 283 AC.

I don't know which R+L=J theory you read, but it seems to not have been a pinned thread from the last year or so? The Tourney at Harrenhal occured in 281 AC

The World Book information would suggest somewhere in the first half of the year, towards the middle

Lyanna went missing in 282 AC only, and quite a while into that year.. She then died in 283 AC, after the war had ended.

So a conception at Harrenhal would mean that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth before she disappeared.. Which would have made her pregnancy rather difficult to hide.

She was not at Winterfell when she disappeared..

Also, if Lyanna had already given birth before she disappeared.. Why did she die? Why did she disappear with Rhaegar in the first place? It raises more questions than it can answer..

I suggest you visit the pinned R+L=J thread for a discussion on the topic, if you wish :)

As to Edric Dayne and his age.. There's four years between Edric's year of birth, and Jon's. You can lie to a child about his age, but how about those around him? They will know that this child is four years older..

[Natalia Borgia]

Edric is 4 years too young to be Rhaegar's lovechild. I know this has been said. But one more time Edric is the son of the lady Ashara's eldest brother and is trueborn. ASOS Arya chapter confirms this.

Th

[SixPence]

(2,3,4) I already said why.. We're talking about a 20 year old woman and a boy who is 13 year old, or even younger (12.. 11.. 10..). A woman who gets attention from men, and a boy who is described as a "pup".

And, most importantly, there are no textual hints pointing towards a relationship between Benjen and Ashara. None. If they had been together, and it was part of a theory, there would have been hints.

Your usage of words earlier is an interesting one, though.. taming the young wolf, you said.. why not tame the wild wolf? That's Brandon, and for him and Ashara, there are far more hints..

(5) In addition to the statement of Jon's nameday in the books, we also have GRRM stating that Jon was born 8 or 9 months before Dany.. We know when Dany is born, we can pinpoint that with reasonable specificity. So Jon's moment of birth can be determined roughly as well, which would place him in 283 AC.

I don't know which R+L=J theory you read, but it seems to not have been a pinned thread from the last year or so? The Tourney at Harrenhal occured in 281 AC

The World Book information would suggest somewhere in the first half of the year, towards the middle

Lyanna went missing in 282 AC only, and quite a while into that year.. She then died in 283 AC, after the war had ended.

So a conception at Harrenhal would mean that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth before she disappeared.. Which would have made her pregnancy rather difficult to hide.

She was not at Winterfell when she disappeared..

Also, if Lyanna had already given birth before she disappeared.. Why did she die? Why did she disappear with Rhaegar in the first place? It raises more questions than it can answer..

I suggest you visit the pinned R+L=J thread for a discussion on the topic, if you wish :)

As to Edric Dayne and his age.. There's four years between Edric's year of birth, and Jon's. You can lie to a child about his age, but how about those around him? They will know that this child is four years older..

And the only source you have for Edrics age is himself, not those around him.

(2, 3, 4) So, to counter my argument that a 20 year old woman in a medieval world could lust for youngsters in the midst of highly hormonal puberty. You argue that it's impossible because she wouldn't lust for youngsters in the midst of highly hormonal puberty? Do you see how incredibly weak that argument is? You're just basing yourself off a paradigm you yourself have created!

[FakeDann]

As someone said, I don't have ages facts to contradict this theory but I find it hard to believe that Catelyn would be such an hypocrite as to hate Jon all her life and Ned being so kind and completely accepting Arya (assuming your theory is true). Because even tho Ned accepts Jon as his son, he does not give him the Stark name, but Arya has been recognized as a true Stark of Winterfell thru the entire series. So just thinking about the traits they have gotten, I think I can pretty much conclude that this theory isn't likely. I think people below have even better arguing about the years that all these things happened.