Septa Lemore is not Ashara Dayne v2

[Ygrain]

Yes, and as stated hundreds of times, if Lemore is Ashara, the absence of specific features is something that GRRM doesn't do.

[Hippocras]

Yes, and as stated hundreds of times, if Lemore is Ashara, the absence of specific features is something that GRRM doesn't do.

As already stated, he does not reserve identifying features as being the only domain where he is not allowed to keep secrets from his readers regardless of to what extent revealing the information would ruin the story.

[UtherSnow]

edited out to save time

STUFF IT! I've forgotten what t'was anyway!

[Hippocras]

Interesting thing:

I just looks through a list of Ice and Fire names to look for some that vaguely resembled Lemore. As we know there are patterns to several family naming practices.

The one that was closest was Lucimore Botley, Wex Pyke's uncle...which...is kind of interesting. Or not.

[Sansa Snow]

Why is Ashara+Brandon so popular? How would Ashara and Brandon having a stillborn girl be anyway relevant to the story? The only way I can see Brandon+Ashara making sense is if Jon is their son or if Ashara is juts a red herring to this story. Even Ashara's death wouldn't make sense if she killed heself because her heart was broken. Brandon died long before she did. I think Ashara is going to be very important character and it's not because she had sex with Brandon.

[Hippocras]

Why is Ashara+Brandon so popular? How would Ashara and Brandon having a stillborn girl be anyway relevant to the story? The only way I can see Brandon+Ashara making sense is if Jon is their son or if Ashara is juts a red herring to this story. Even Ashara's death wouldn't make sense if she killed heself because her heart was broken. Brandon died long before she did. I think Ashara is going to be very important character and it's not because she had sex with Brandon.

Yep

[Chebyshov]

Why is Ashara+Brandon so popular? How would Ashara and Brandon having a stillborn girl be anyway relevant to the story? The only way I can see Brandon+Ashara making sense is if Jon is their son or if Ashara is juts a red herring to this story. Even Ashara's death wouldn't make sense if she killed heself because her heart was broken. Brandon died long before she did. I think Ashara is going to be very important character and it's not because she had sex with Brandon.

It's popular because it's based on established characterization of the players involved. She is a red herring as Jon's mom, though that's not to say House Dayne won't matter in some facet. But imo there's nothing wrong with it being a rather tragic story of a young girl who lost everything during the war and couldn't handle her grief. I don't think it's as simple as "she loved Brandon and killed herself." She also lost a child, a brother, not to mention news of the completely horrible death of Elia and her children.

[Hippocras]

It's popular because it's based on established characterization of the players involved. She is a red herring as Jon's mom, though that's not to say House Dayne won't matter in some facet. But imo there's nothing wrong with it being a rather tragic story of a young girl who lost everything during the war and couldn't handle her grief. I don't think it's as simple as "she loved Brandon and killed herself." She also lost a child, a brother, not to mention news of the completely horrible death of Elia and her children.

The heart of the problem in this thread, as in many others, is that some theories are mutually exclusive. Both cannot be true. People who are attached to the idea Brandon "dishonoured" Ashara or she is the mother of Jon are inclined to believe that Ashara's significance in the story is already established and nothing more is needed.

However, if you read the meaning of "looked to" the way I do - which is in fact the way it is typically used in English - it is unlikely to mean anything of the sort, which means Brandon did not "dishonour" Ashara but probably tried to help her. In which case the true significance of Ashara in the story is quite unclear. We don't know what is meant by "dishonour", or who did it, or what the consequences were, or what kind of help she hoped for from a Stark. What we do know is that the Reeds felt it important to hint at the identities of every one of her dance partners. This lack of clarity means that speculation is necessary in order to generate theories on what really happened, and how the Daynes fit into everything that is going on.

The Lemore = Ashara theory is just one of these speculations, and nothing more. It deserves discussion, rather than denigration. It has much to offer that is interesting, which is what makes it a compelling theory. The only reason to be vehemently opposed to this discussion is if it jeopardizes some other theory that certain posters are very attached to.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why is Brandon + Ashara popular? Actually, it's not that hard to figure out.

Because it's the logical conclusion.

We start aGoT with Cat believing Ashara is the mother of Jon. This is what Cersei also believes, and I'm suppose many others. Yet, in aGoT, is the book where mostly RLJ clues are revealed.

So, why did Ashara kill herself? Where is her baby? Who was her lover?

In book 3 we find out that Ashara was quite the looker. And we finally saw the first Brandon connection: she asked her to dance with Ned. And, in book 5, we also were told that Brandon was an asshole, and that Ashara did have in fact, a baby girl. In the same book we were introduced to another candidate to be Jon's mother.

Ashara's baby is a red herring.

What is more likely to have happened is that Ashara and Brandon had an affair, but Brandon simply couldn't do the right thing because he was going to marry. To "their luck", the child was born dead, and Ashara remained in Starfall. Starfall is so close to the place where Rhaegar chose to hide with Lyanna, who was also pregnant. Ashara had not only being a lady in waiting of Elia, which meant he knew how to proper attend a lady -and being discreet- but she probably had milk that Lyanna could have needed. And she could have easily served as a go-between for them. Nevertheless, the Rebellion ended up bad for them. Ned killed Arthur, and Rhaegar, Lyanna, Elia and many others died. Ashara killed herself out of grief, and maybe guilt.

There is no need to be some sort of higher mystery there for Ashara Dayne. She's not that much of an important character, nor any hidden child needs to be hidden here. The red herring is the importance of Ashara Dayne as Jon's mother. She's not.

[Chebyshov]

The heart of the problem in this thread, as in many others, is that some theories are mutually exclusive. Both cannot be true. People who are attached to the idea Brandon "dishonoured" Ashara or she is the mother of Jon are inclined to believe that Ashara's significance in the story is already established and nothing more is needed.

However, if you read the meaning of "looked to" the way I do - which is in fact the way it is typically used in English - it is unlikely to mean anything of the sort, which means Brandon did not "dishonour" Ashara but probably tried to help her. In which case the true significance of Ashara in the story is quite unclear. We don't know what is meant by "dishonour", or who did it, or what the consequences were, or what kind of help she hoped for from a Stark. What we do know is that the Reeds felt it important to hint at the identities of every one of her dance partners. This lack of clarity means that speculation is necessary in order to generate theories on what really happened, and how the Daynes fit into everything that is going on.

The Lemore = Ashara theory is just one of these speculations, and nothing more. It deserves discussion, rather than denigration. It has much to offer that is interesting, which is what makes it a compelling theory. The only reason to be vehemently opposed to this discussion is if it jeopardizes some other theory that certain posters are very attached to.

My dear, we are clearly at an impasse about "looked to" lol. 'sallgood.

I don't think Brandon having sex with Ashara makes it mutually exclusive to Ashara having a significant role in the story. There's very good indication that she and Ned had a mutual respect, and possible a bit of a thing for each other, which doesn't preclude her from shtupping his brother. Whatever was going on between Ashara and Ned, it seems like the Daynes (or Ashara specifically) may have played a big role in helping Ned before and/or after the ToJ, and clearly the story Allyria told Edric about Ned and Ashara had to have come from somewhere. We don't know all the details, and I think there's no reason to say "oh well she fucked Brandon so gg that's her role."

Take SL=AD, even. She has a stillborn by Brandon, and is really struggling to deal with that grief, plus her brother, plus dealing with complicated emotions for the Stark boys (one of whom was tortured to death), plus Elia and her children's murder. Maybe Varys somehow approaches her with Aegon and agrees for her to go off and help raise him. I, of course, don't believe this is what happened, but my point is that Ashara sleeping with Brandon doesn't sit in contention with other, "interesting" options for her character.

The reason there's vehement opposition, however, is because of the complete lack of evidence in favor of this, which includes the author's own remarks on the subject. The fact that an "amazing beauty" with "haunting eyes," who should be in her 30s would appear to the voyeuristic Tyrion as "past 40" with unremarkable eyes and "more handsome" than pretty seems a bit questionable. The couple that with JonCon's thoughts, and I just don't see a strong case for it at all. It's really not hate on a theory for the sake of hate...it's logic.

[Hippocras]

My dear, we are clearly at an impasse about "looked to" lol. 'sallgood.

I don't think Brandon having sex with Ashara makes it mutually exclusive to Ashara having a significant role in the story. There's very good indication that she and Ned had a mutual respect, and possible a bit of a thing for each other, which doesn't preclude her from shtupping his brother. Whatever was going on between Ashara and Ned, it seems like the Daynes (or Ashara specifically) may have played a big role in helping Ned before and/or after the ToJ, and clearly the story Allyria told Edric about Ned and Ashara had to have come from somewhere. We don't know all the details, and I think there's no reason to say "oh well she fucked Brandon so gg that's her role."

Take SL=AD, even. She has a stillborn by Brandon, and is really struggling to deal with that grief, plus her brother, plus dealing with complicated emotions for the Stark boys (one of whom was tortured to death), plus Elia and her children's murder. Maybe Varys somehow approaches her with Aegon and agrees for her to go off and help raise him. I, of course, don't believe this is what happened, but my point is that Ashara sleeping with Brandon doesn't sit in contention with other, "interesting" options for her character.

The reason there's vehement opposition, however, is because of the complete lack of evidence in favor of this, which includes the author's own remarks on the subject. The fact that an "amazing beauty" with "haunting eyes," who should be in her 30s would appear to the voyeuristic Tyrion as "past 40" with unremarkable eyes and "more handsome" than pretty seems a bit questionable. The couple that with JonCon's thoughts, and I just don't see a strong case for it at all. It's really not hate on a theory for the sake of hate...it's logic.

Well ok, it would not mean there is no more to Ashara in the story, necessarily. However confirmation of Brandon sleeping with Ashara would remove the primary reason to believe her role remains completely unestablished, making speculations such as Lemore unnecessary (except we still would not know who Lemore is).

I agree there is not a huge amount of real evidence to base the Ashara = Lemore speculation on, however I simply do not find any of the evidence against it conclusive at all, and certainly not to the extent that it warrants the sneering tone found on threads discussing it.

I think people should try to remember the last time in the real world they heard a woman past 40 described as a striking beauty for example: There is a reason women are often parranoid about aging. Handsome is a rather accurate description of how the world sees exceptionally attractive middle aged women. Especially when it is a man in his twenties talking. Ashara was an exceptional beauty in her teens! How people would describe her now would be rather different.

I could go on. There is simply no more to base opposition on than support!

The "looked to" idiom is clearly an exceptionally important choice of ambiguous phrasing causing much confusion. Here is a discussion of it: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51022/is-looking-to-acceptable-english-in-this-use

One commenter points out that it has been in use as a kind of hope or expectation expression since the 1600's while the site itself presents "looked to" as something between to hope for and to make happen as a relatively recent phenomenon. Regardless, the site is fairly clear on how it is being used. Noone there seems to think it does not have the connotation of expectation/hope combined with active intention, plan or need.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

I love Ashara and I wish that Ashara and Eddard was Jon's parents ,I hope that Lemore is just some septa named Lemore .But... I could be wrong Lemore or le mor (death) might be a clue .

[Bael's Bastard]

Because that's not how literary analysis works. If you can provide a quote, an example or a simple hint in ASOIAF in which a character simply "forgot" to mention something that was later turned out to be confirmed important (or hinted to be), then you're right. But there is not.

For example, one person that is not confirmed yet: Alleras. Sam noticed a Dornish accent, also, her widow's peak. That's because Sarella lives in Dorne and she's Oberyn's daughter. Sam, who is not as observant as Tyrion, has already described the two features that give away Alleraa's real identity, even when Alleras's identity hasn't been found out by anyone, except the readers. GRRM WANTS READERS TO KNOW what characters aren't yet figured out. Sam doesn't know. We do.

He doesn't keep stuff to be "revealed later", as you say. We all know who Alleras is, that's the point of writing clues, to have the readers find out and be one step ahead. That doesn't mean that Tyrion had to figure out who Lemore was. If anything, I think Tyrion never knew her. He only needed to say "mmm... those eyes are suspiciously purple!". That was enough for us to either wander if Lemore was 1. Aegon's mother, 2. Some lady from Lys, 3. A Dayne, in the same way we wondered and are quite certain that Alleras is Sarella even though the books don't explicitly say it.

There is also the fact that Martin is not exactly subtle when he makes up secret names. Alleras = Sarella is the lamest of the examples. There is also Arstan/Barristan, Griff/Jon Abel/Bael/Mance. Even Tyrion called himself "Hill", a bastard from the Westerlands. If we hadn't know Hugor Hill was Tyrion, we could have figured out by ourselves who he was: a dwarf named Hill HAD to be Tyrion, because Tyrion is from the Westerlands. As he said, the better lies have a little bit of truth.

There it is.

[Hippocras]

There it is.

No, there it isn't.

There is absolutely no storytelling consequence to us knowing about Sarella. It does not ruin anyone else's secret but rather hints at bigger ones. It is a false example because the reason for the concealed identity is entirely different. In Lemore's case it is a PROBLEM for us to know who she is too early; in Sarella's case it is not. Sarella's identity is concealed from the maesters, not from us. Apples and oranges.

It is, frankly, quite ridiculous to assume that GRRM has some kind of rule, where he is allowed to keep some kinds of secrets from his readers but not others. There is no special clause that says eye colour, accent, or any other specific identifying feature must be revealed in all cases no matter what impact it has on affected storylines. That would be like writing a murder mystery wher a full physical description of the murderer is provided in the opening chapter and the only character matching it is introduced in the second. No need to read the rest of the book if the author does that!

On Brandon:

I still have not found a single example where "looked to" when applied to a person does not have the connotation of help or need fulfillment of some kind. It is simply not the same thing as "looked AT". Looked at means only to direct the gaze and nothing more. Looked TO means to have a need or desire of some kind (pre-existing) and focus on a specific person or institution as a means of fulfulling it. This is not the same thing as simply looking at and finding someone so sexy that one feels the urge to pull them into a bedroom: in such a case the expression does not apply because there is no pre-existing need, hope or plan.

[Sanset]

No, there it isn't.

There is absolutely no storytelling consequence to us knowing about Sarella. It does not ruin anyone else's secret but rather hints at bigger ones. It is a false example because the reason for the concealed identity is entirely different. In Lemore's case it is a PROBLEM for us to know who she is too early; in Sarella's case it is not. Sarella's identity is concealed from the maesters, not from us. Apples and oranges.

It is, frankly, quite ridiculous to assume that GRRM has some kind of rule, where he is allowed to keep some kinds of secrets from his readers but not others. There is no special clause that says eye colour, accent, or any other specific identifying feature must be revealed in all cases no matter what impact it has on affected storylines. That would be like writing a murder mystery wher a full physical description of the murderer is provided in the opening chapter and the only character matching it is introduced in the second. No need to read the rest of the book if the author does that!

On Brandon:

I still have not found a single example where "looked to" when applied to a person does not have the connotation of help or need fulfillment of some kind. It is simply not the same thing as "looked AT". Looked at means only to direct the gaze and nothing more. Looked TO means to have a need or desire of some kind (pre-existing) and focus on a specific person or institution as a means of fulfulling it. This is not the same thing as simply looking at and finding someone so sexy that one feels the urge to pull them into a bedroom: in such a case the expression does not apply because there is no pre-existing need, hope or plan.

I have to say that I didn't know about that particular meaning of "look to", so when a read ADwD, I thought that Barristan meant to look at him instead of Stark in the sense of paying attention in some romantic or platonic way. She was dancing with a couple of interesting characters. I supposed that was the reason that she looked "at" Stark. I've read the dictionaries, the thread and the links on the posts, and it seems that the notion of "help" or "advise" is key in the use of the term. I didn't even know that I had misread it. Thanks for pointing it out.

Barristan loves his vows more than he could love Ashara. To the light of this precise meaning of "look to" it sounds really funny to think of "help because Ashara needed sex". Barristan is the kind of Bonifer Hasty, he is straitlaced, he doesn't even think about sex, I mean not the way Tyrion does, or what we can guess Jorah thinks about Dany. Barristan would never say something like «I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her» because he doesn't think that way. Therefore, with that meaning of "look to", "help for a need of sex" is out of the list of possibilities because it was a thought in Barristan's mind.

Now that you have post the use of the term, it seems that Ashara needed help with some issue and asked the Stark, but the "need of sex" doesn't work in this context. "Need of sex" might work for Illyrio, but not for Ashara in Barristan's mind. Besides, it sounds reasonable that Barristan would like to help her with her issues. It is chivalrous. It sounds hilarious Barristan thinking: "if Ash was on fire, I could have helped her". It doesn't work for Ser Barristan of the Kingsguard. I guess I'll be laughing for a while in my re-reads.

By the way, now I want to know exactly why Ashara needed help and how did Stark helped her. Who was Stark, we don't know for sure, it is info that Barristan is hiding from us. I mean, why couldn't be Lyanna? If we take the sexual motives out of the equation, Lyanna is a rightful Stark, and if Barristan didn't like her because all the consequences of her love with Rhaegar, he could perfectly refer to her as "Stark". It's just a thought, this change of understanding the scene makes me rethink the whole picture.

[Chebyshov]

On Brandon:

I still have not found a single example where "looked to" when applied to a person does not have the connotation of help or need fulfillment of some kind. It is simply not the same thing as "looked AT". Looked at means only to direct the gaze and nothing more. Looked TO means to have a need or desire of some kind (pre-existing) and focus on a specific person or institution as a means of fulfulling it. This is not the same thing as simply looking at and finding someone so sexy that one feels the urge to pull them into a bedroom: in such a case the expression does not apply because there is no pre-existing need, hope or plan.

“And have men say I feared to face Stannis?”

“Only fools will say that,” Lord Mathis argued.

Renly looked to the others. “What say you all?”

…

Ser Guyard Morrigen grew dark with fury. “I will take up the gage, if it please the king.”

“As would I” Bryce Caron looked to Stannis.

The king ground his teeth. “No.”

…

“Tell me true. If I fell into the hands of your people and yielded myself, what would it win me?”

“A slower death than elsewise.”

The big ranger looked to Jon. “We have no food to feed her, nor can we spare a man to watch her.”

…

“To Greywater Watch?”

Meera looked to her brother for the answer. “Our road is north,” Jojen announced.

…

Ser Cleos was plainly tempted. “A proper bed would do us all good, my lady,” he said to Brienne. “We’d make better time on the morrow once refreshed.” He looked to his cousin for support.

…

“Them. Three hundred of them.” Whatever is asked, the Halfhand said. So why do I feel so craven? “Two hundred from Castle Black, and one hundred from the Shadow Tower.”

“There’s a truer song than the one you sang in my tent.” Mance looked to Harma Dogshead. “How many horses have we found?”

…

“ . . . the wildlings will flood the north,” his father finished, “and the Starks and Greyjoys will have another enemy to contend with. They no longer wish to be subject to the Iron Throne, it would seem, so by what right do they look to the Iron Throne for aid? King Robb and King Balon both claim the north. Let them defend it, if they can. And if not, this Mance Rayder might even prove a useful ally.” Lord Tywin looked to his brother. “Is there more?”

…

“Where?” Davos looked to Ser Axell. “Tell me true, ser, do you mean to burn me?”

…

“Good. My Unsullied will relish a bit of a fight.” She looked to Grey Worm, who nodded.

…

“It’s gone, my lady,” Galbart Glover said. “Washed away even before the one at Fairmarket.”

Robb looked to Catelyn. “Is there another bridge?”

…

Robb swung down from the saddle. “Petyr, take my horse. Yours is almost back to the stable.”

Petyr looked to his father and said, “I can ride behind one of my brothers.”

…

Devan looked to Pylos. “Is that how it happened?”

…

How could the Watch have looked to him for help?

…

“He did not choke.” Cersei’s voice was sharp as Ser Ilyn’s sword. “My son was poisoned.”

She looked to the white knights standing helplessly around her. “Kingsguard, do your duty.”

“My lady?” said Ser Loras Tyrell, uncertain.

…

“We should have built hoardings.” Jon thought he could hear the crash of axes on wood,

but that was probably just fear ringing in his ears. He looked to Grenn. “Do it.”

In the cases where Martin uses "looked to" as needing help or fulfillment, he clarifies this by adding on "looked to __ for help" or "for answer." The way Martin uses the phrase otherwise is to mean "turned attention to." In the context of what Barristan is talking about, as we've all been saying, it's clear he's talking about winning Ashara's attention (if he had won the tourney) so that she'd have taken notice of him instead of Stark, and maybe been spared the pain of her "dishonoring" (because he's overly protective of her vagina, being the fuddy duddy that he is).

No one said she was talking about looking to as in fucking, though her turning attention to Stark certainly had that effect.

[Sanset]

No one said she was talking about looking to as in fucking, though her turning attention to Stark certainly had that effect.

OK, but it's funny anyway. And some people were asking "why not". Maybe they weren't being serious about it, but they suggested it.

I think the "look to" is confusing and that's what GRRM intended. If we add the mystery about the identity of the "Stark" it works as a perfect riddle.

[Hippocras]

^You need to look a bit closer at these examples:

Renly did not just look at the others, he looked at them expecting something: an opinion/answer.

Caron looked to Stannis FOR agreement.

Halfhand looked to Jon FOR his acquiescence on killing Ygritte.

Mance wanted to know how many.

etc.

They ALL have an expectation attached. They are not simply a redirection of the gaze. Something is WANTED from the person being looked at, and that want is not a product of them looking - it was pre-existing.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I still have not found a single example where "looked to" when applied to a person does not have the connotation of help or need fulfillment of some kind. It is simply not the same thing as "looked AT".

Look at what you're writing. You're saying that "looked to" means "help me fill this need".

I'm not arguing exactly what it meant in the way Barristan used it, I'm just saying that your own arguments are shooting yourself in the foot.

[Hippocras]

Look at what you're writing. You're saying that "looked to" means "help me fill this need".

I'm not arguing exactly what it meant in the way Barristan used it, I'm just saying that your own arguments are shooting yourself in the foot.

How so? Noone has actually been able to provide a counter-example. Every one of them is easily deconstructed to show that it does in fact have the connotation of expectation or need.