Do you support the Greens or Blacks? Why?

[Jaak]

But as I've said, I imagine if Jaehaerys had known that he would outlive Baelon, too, he would have chosen Rhaenys and groomed her to rule in his last decade. Had Rhaenys been Princess of Dragonstone for 11 years, the succession would have gone smoothly, I imagine.

By 92, Rhaenys was 18.

We see how Viserys´ lack of a son was seen as a major problem by Daemon and Otto by the time Realm´s Delight was 7.

Aemon had no plan to die anytime as soon as 92 - he was planning to survive Jaehaerys and reign. But he was going to die sometimes. Had Aemon been grooming Rhaenys to eventually rule, back in 80s?

[Red Tiger]

What im wondering, is why the old king didn't just step down.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

What im wondering, is why the old king didn't just step down.

I don't think there was such a precedent in Westeros at the time, and I don't think he wanted to

[Lord Varys]

A Crown Prince cannot groom his heir to rule as effectively as his is groomed, as the monarch is first focusing on the guy he thinks will inherit first. Not to mention that Aemon/Jocelyn may have hoped to have more children prior to Aemon's death. Perhaps Jocelyn died at Rhaenys' birth, and Aemon never remarried, making Rhaenys effectively his heir - but if this was not the case, Rhaenys' was only his Heir Presumptive until he had given birth to a son.

Viserys' lack of a son only became a problem following the Great Council, as its decision led Daemon to the conclusion that, until Viserys had a son, he was the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne. Otto was not happy about that.

Before the Great Council, a female heir would not have been considered as problematic as afterwards.

[Jaak]

What im wondering, is why the old king didn't just step down.

Why? Were there precedents/traditions for such action?

What he did do was make Baelon his Hand in addition to the heir... but not as his first choice, only after Ryam Redwyne tried and failed.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Blacks, almost for the simple reason that more Old Godsmen were in the ranks.. And Alicent seemed worse then Rhaenyra to be honest, isn't it explicitly stated Rhaenyras husband wouldn't sleep with her?

Yeah the whole bastardry thing was treason but on a personal level she did what was best for herself, which I can't blame her for. The Greens were a pretentious power grabbing bunch relying on some precedent over the kings will, which I think trumps precedent. Very similar to Cerceis ripping up of Neds "paper shield"

[lojzelote]

Have I missed some information on Aerea and Rhaella? As far as I know, we have no idea whether either of them lived at the time when Alyssa and co. proclaimed Jaehaerys king. It's not unthinkable that Maegor had them killed in a fit of rage or they could have died of natural causes like young children in this setting often do. Also, one would think that Rhaena wouldn't have angered Maegor by fleeing if it meant leaving her daughters at his mercy.

[Jaak]

Yeah the whole bastardry thing was treason but on a personal level she did what was best for herself, which I can't blame her for.

It is called treason by Gyldayn, but was there an explicit law making it so?

[Lord Varys]

It is unlikely that Aerea and Rhalla died during Maegor's reign, as TWoIaF explicitly states that Maegor named Aerea his heir when he disinherited Jaehaerys, and he only had Rhaena and her daughters in his power in 47/48, and possibly only disinherited Jaehaerys when the latter made his claim known.

More importantly, it seems that all the nine lesser claimants dismissed at the Great Council were descendants of Rhaena, Aerea, and Rhalla, as the Velaryon faction only presented Laenor's claim (Rhaenys and Laena's claims were not presented), and it is very unlikely that Daemon, Alyssa and Aegon (if they were still alive), or Aemma presented their own claims against Viserys'.

[lojzelote]

It wouldn't surprise me if Maegor killed them later anyway. He was a brute and not all right in head.

But yea, the number of lesser claimants makes it convincing that at least one of them might have survived, unless it was all Rhaena's brood from later marriage(s).

Ugh, even after the encyclopedia, most things remain a mystery. For one, I wonder what befell all those Targaryens during the Century of Blood? From the sound of it, Aenar brought with him a small army of relatives, but at the time of the Conquest there are only Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya (and the Velaryons) left.

[Jaak]

Alyssa and Aegon (if they were still alive)

Which Aegon?

[Lord Varys]

I think if Maegor killed Aerea/Rhalla, then TWoIaF would have given us that information, instead of including the rather irrelevant fact that Aerea was for a short period of time Maegor's heir.

More importantly, Rhaena successfully fled on her dragon with Blackfyre. I assume she took her children with her, as I don't think she would have left them behind, and if Maegor had already killed her daughters by that point, Rhaena would not only have stolen Blackfyre from Maegor, but would most likely have slain her sleeping uncle-husband in the process...

On the various branches of House Targaryen that originally came to Dragonstone with Aenar:

I imagine they would have been absorbed back into the main branch and House Velaryon. Female branches may have still existed around the time of the Conquest, as Alyssa Velaryon seems to have a Targaryen mother (possibly a daughter of a brother of Aerion Targaryen, Aegon's father, or a significantly younger sister of Aerion - too young for him to marry). Alyssa was born in 7 AC as well, but was most likely not Aethon Velaryon's youngest child.

Additional 'spare daughters' may have married into other houses, most prominently Houses Darklyn and Massey, explaining why Ser Steffon Darklyn and Gormon Massey believed they could become dragonriders during the Dance. Duskendale was the biggest port at the east coast of Westeros prior to the Conquest (suggesting that the Targaryens may have been interested in befriending them shortly after they came to Dragonstone), and the Masseys - despite being sworn to Storm's End - stood with Aegon even before the Conquest began (possibly suggesting a distant kinship).

Aenar had multiple wives, suggesting that Gaemon the Glorious and Daenys were not his only children. We also don't know whether Aegon and Elaena were the only children Gaemon and Daenys had, or whether Aegon/Elaena and later Aerys had any daughters - if we assume they didn't, Maegon/Aerys and Aelyx, Baelon, and Daemion may have taken wives from those cadet branches, founded by Aenar's siblings or cousins.

Jaak,

Aegon, the youngest son of Baelon and Alyssa, and younger brother of Viserys and Daemon. Rhaenyra's claim would also not have been discussed/presented at the Great Council, by the way.

[Jaak]

The position of Rhaenys at Great Council of 101 was odd. The general Andal law is mother before son if his claim comes from her. In addition, Laenor was 8, and since Jaehaerys was clearly a shadow of the man he had been, choosing Laenor meant regency. Whereas Rhaenys was 27, had somehow proven her bravery when she was 22 (in 96, 5 years ago) and may have been groomed to rule by Aemon.

[Red Tiger]

Why? Were there precedents/traditions for such action?

What he did do was make Baelon his Hand in addition to the heir... but not as his first choice, only after Ryam Redwyne tried and failed.

That's not what im talking about. You'd figure that once a king passes a certain age and is really old (60 seems like 80 in Westeros) he would step down and hand the throne over to his successor.

[Jaak]

That's not what im talking about. You'd figure that once a king passes a certain age and is really old (60 seems like 80 in Westeros) he would step down and hand the throne over to his successor.

Rare in Westeros and rare on Earth. Historically, Kings used to sir on thrones till dying there, and the groomed heir may have had effective authority, but not the throne. Also applies in Westeros.

[Red Tiger]

Rare in Westeros and rare on Earth. Historically, Kings used to sir on thrones till dying there, and the groomed heir may have had effective authority, but not the throne. Also applies in Westeros.

I understand, I just think a wise ruler who did many things differently, like Jaehaerys, would be open to an exception.

[Jaak]

I understand, I just think a wise ruler who did many things differently, like Jaehaerys, would be open to an exception.

There were practical difficulties creating such an exception. And what was supposed to be the position of such an ex-king?

There had been ex-kings at Wall. But going to Wall was little use to Wall, and personally very uncomfortable for the aged King. Then what?

[Red Tiger]

There were practical difficulties creating such an exception. And what was supposed to be the position of such an ex-king?

Stay around as an advisor on the new king's council.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Stay around as an advisor on the new king's council.

And risk having the new king's councillors undermine the new king's leadership by turning to the old king?

I doubt the Old King would want that

[Winterfell is Burning]

And risk having the new king's councillors undermine the new king's leadership by turning to the old king?

I doubt the Old King would want that

Yeah, pretty much. When Kings or Lords wanted to make way to their successors, they go to the Wall, like Jeor did. But seems unlikely Jaehaerys would last much there, if he even survived the trip.