Do you support the Greens or Blacks? Why?

[Jaak]

The fact that all this suffering comes as a result of Jaeherys I being a terrific King, and having a large healthy, well connected family is a bitter bitter irony.

It came from Jaehaerys I-s deeds, yes, but that´s why he was not terrific.

Basically, Jaehaerys, Aemon and Baelon managed to create a festering succession dispute and split the house of dragonriders into two, and later three hostile families.

They should have married Rhaenys and Viserys to each other back in 92, not to Corlys and Aemma. Neither Corlys not Aemma would have had the claim and the popularity to undertake rebellion on their own or with an alternative spouse.

[Lord Varys]

Jaak,

Viserys closed the rift between the Velaryons and the Targaryens by marrying Rhaenyra to Laenor, effectively overcoming the Great Council issue.

Rhaenys and Viserys may have been married to each other if Rhaenys and Corlys had not already been betrothed/married to each other when Aemon died. I'm pretty sure the Rhaenys-Corlys match goes back to Aemon/Jocelyn, and perhaps even to Robar/Alyssa - and even if this is not the case, then Corlys-Rhaenys may have been an important/necessary match, as Corlys Velaryon was the richest (and most famous) man in Westeros at this time, and possibly himself of a more senior female branch of House Targaryen (either through Rhaena alone, or one of her daughters).

Jaehaerys/Aemon may have tried to unite those competing lines back then. Jaehaerys I decided to pass Rhaenys over in 92 AC, but I'm pretty sure that Aemon would have not disinherited his own daughter had he ever ascended the Iron Throne, so Aemon may have deliberately chosen Corlys as Prince Consort for his daughter.

[Mithras]

Did Aemon have a saying over the word of Jaehaerys about marriage agreements including his daughter?

Daeron II was naming his grandchildren and sent Aemon to the Citadel.

[C.T. Phipps]

It's made pretty clear from the texts that Viserys I essentially had two splintered families that he seen as one. In that sense it was inevitable. I do think he could have done a lot more to prevent the disharmony ever growing as string as it did, or taken steps to assure Rhaenyra's ascension. Essentially, it was inevitable because Viserys ignored the problem in front of him.

Monarchy breeds civil wars.

These things happen all the time as we see in Westeros. Revolts and feuding is a national pastime for a military hereditary dictatorship and its puppet-states.

Really, the only way the Dance could have been prevented was if he didn't marry Alicent and had Daemon killed.

Because if his male heirs didn't exist, DAEMON would have been the one revolting.

Ambitious people will find an excuse.

Look at Renly and Balon.

[Barty]

The law is clear - it does not state that a Lord/King can choose his heir, it states that the eldest son is the heir. Viserys as King had the power to change the law but he did not do that. The law remained - he just wanted to create an exception. The law is on the side of the Greens - which is why Stannis is also.

Viserys was just plain dumb - There is no reason whatsoever to chose Rhaenyra over Aegon, yet he remained stubborn. Poor Aegon - how must he have felt? His father going against laws and traditions thousands of years old just to favor his sister over him and steal his birthright. Terrible parent as well it must be said.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

that depends. I imagine Jaehaerys could have objected, but he obviously gave his consent (else the marriage would not have happened). Either the whole match was his idea, or Alysanne, Aemon, Jocelyn - and possibly Robar and Alyssa Velaryon - were involved as well. Corlys and Rhaenys could have been betrothed to each shortly after Rhaenys' birth for all we know. In fact, this would be very likely, as Corlys was much older than Rhaenys.

Viserys and Aemma may have been betrothed to each as children as well.

Daeron II effectively seems to mimic Jaehaerys I in regards to how he dealt with his own children and grandchildren.

Barty,

please give me textual evidence for that ludicrous statement. Where does it say in any work published by George R.R. Martin that there was a law of succession that dictated that the eldest son has to inherit in any circumstance?

And where to you get the notion that there was a unified Andal law of succession if TWoIaF explicitly states that the Seven Kingdoms followed various local laws and customs prior to the Conquest and were only unified by Jaehaerys I?

The fact that there was apparently only a Gardener Queen Regnant strongly suggests that most Andal kingdoms (and the North) did not follow the 'a daughter comes before an uncle' rule prior to unification of the laws.

[lojzelote]

The law is clear - it does not state that a Lord/King can choose his heir, it states that the eldest son is the heir. Viserys as King had the power to change the law but he did not do that. The law remained - he just wanted to create an exception. The law is on the side of the Greens - which is why Stannis is also.

Viserys was just plain dumb - There is no reason whatsoever to chose Rhaenyra over Aegon, yet he remained stubborn. Poor Aegon - how must he have felt? His father going against laws and traditions thousands of years old just to favor his sister over him and steal his birthright. Terrible parent as well it must be said.

Wonder how daughters feel when they are continuously told they're inherently worth less than sons, whatever may be their qualities. :rolleyes: LOL

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The law is clear - it does not state that a Lord/King can choose his heir, it states that the eldest son is the heir. Viserys as King had the power to change the law but he did not do that. The law remained - he just wanted to create an exception. The law is on the side of the Greens - which is why Stannis is also.

Viserys was just plain dumb - There is no reason whatsoever to chose Rhaenyra over Aegon, yet he remained stubborn. Poor Aegon - how must he have felt? His father going against laws and traditions thousands of years old just to favor his sister over him and steal his birthright. Terrible parent as well it must be said.

You are right the law is clear; thou shalt not marry your sister. Yet the Targs did that. What does it say about them. I guess "F@@@k off law. We are not Andals and we are royalty and FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD"

[Red Tiger]

You are right the law is clear; thou shalt not marry your sister. Yet the Targs did that. What does it say about them. I guess "F@@@k off law. We are not Andals and we are royalty and FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD"

Thank you :cheers:

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

The law is clear - it does not state that a Lord/King can choose his heir, it states that the eldest son is the heir. Viserys as King had the power to change the law but he did not do that. The law remained - he just wanted to create an exception. The law is on the side of the Greens - which is why Stannis is also.

Viserys was just plain dumb - There is no reason whatsoever to chose Rhaenyra over Aegon, yet he remained stubborn. Poor Aegon - how must he have felt? His father going against laws and traditions thousands of years old just to favor his sister over him and steal his birthright. Terrible parent as well it must be said.

As others have said above, where is the textual proof for this? The various kingdoms practiced different codes of law before the conquest right until Jaehaerys I created one law.

And even then he might have gone against it when he named Baelon heir over Rhaenys.

[Barty]

Wonder how daughters feel when they are continuously told they're inherently worth less than sons, whatever may be their qualities. :rolleyes: LOL

Thats what westerosi society says, For Aegon it was his own father going against the laws and customs to put him down.

[Barty]

You are right the law is clear; thou shalt not marry your sister. Yet the Targs did that. What does it say about them. I guess "F@@@k off law. We are not Andals and we are royalty and FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD"

Perhaps they should have learned their lesson - breaking the above mentioned law led to one of the longest and bloodiest wars in westerosi history.

Guess having a brain is not something one can expect from a house who's words are FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD (as you so eloquently put it)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Perhaps they should have learned their lesson - breaking the above mentioned law led to one of the longest and bloodiest wars in westerosi history.

Guess having a brain is not something one can expect from a house who's words are FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD (as you so eloquently put it)

I think that you missed the point. The point is that the Targs followed no law but their own law. Some people could say that since they were not Andals, First men or Rhoynar they had no reason to follow any of the other people's laws, I would say that if they wanted to follow their own law they could had stayed home and do as they pleased.

[Winterfell is Burning]

You are right the law is clear; thou shalt not marry your sister. Yet the Targs did that. What does it say about them. I guess "F@@@k off law. We are not Andals and we are royalty and FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD"

Yet Aegon II was supposed to follow *the law* and allow her sister to be Queen? If "FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD" is an argument for Viserys to appoint Rhaenyra, why it can't be an argument for Aegon to want to be King? This line of thinking is just silly.

[Barrick Eddon]

I think that you missed the point. The point is that the Targs followed no law but their own law. Some people could say that since they were not Andals, First men or Rhoynar they had no reason to follow any of the other people's laws, I would say that if they wanted to follow their own law they could had stayed home and do as they pleased.

:agree: They should have never ruled Westeros.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yet Aegon II was supposed to follow *the law* and allow her sister to be Queen? If "FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD" is an argument for Viserys to appoint Rhaenyra, why it can't be an argument for Aegon to want to be King? This line of thinking is just silly.

Did you missed the part where Viserys was a Targ and the King and his word was the law? Since Aegon was a Targ his father's law was his own law. Hence Rhaenyra was the heir and the true Queen.

Again I find Helicent's line's destiny as a proof of devine punishment. She created the whole mess her own line was destroyed.

:agree: They should have never ruled Westeros.

http://media.giphy.com/media/gmnPIrsAeTBlK/giphy.gif

[Nictarion]

:agree: They should have never ruled Westeros.

And the First Men shouldn't have stolen the land from the CotF. And the Andals shouldn't have conquered the Vale, etc.....

[Red Tiger]

Perhaps they should have learned their lesson - breaking the above mentioned law led to one of the longest and bloodiest wars in westerosi history.

Guess having a brain is not something one can expect from a house who's words are FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD (as you so eloquently put it)

Well, I agree with you here. Problem is the Targs rarely respected the law (or at least SOME form of law, hell Dornish customs would have been just as good), I agree with you that they SHOULD have and it would have made a ton of things a lot easier (shit, Viserys I would not have been king), but that's not how things went down in Willd Wild Westeros.

My line of thinking concerning this matter goes something like "The Targs always did whatever the fuck they wanted before Viserys I, why would Viserys I be any different?". That's why I don't partictularly blame Viserys (at first, I mean after his grandkids by Rhaenyra all looked brown-haired, he should have disinherited her, IMO).

[Barrick Eddon]

And the First Men shouldn't have stolen the land from the CotF. And the Andals shouldn't have conquered the Vale, etc.....

The FM tried to conquer westeros , but after thousands of years of war they made a pact where the FM took the Old Gods as their gods , they took their laws . They mad an agreement with the Cotf that they will live in forest will the FM will live on the rest of the land until The Andals come. The Andals had no other choice , it was either that or be killed or become a slave of Valyrian empire .

[Winterfell is Burning]

Did you missed the part where Viserys was a Targ and the King and his word was the law? Since Aegon was a Targ his father's law was his own law. Hence Rhaenyra was the heir and the true Queen.

Viserys was dead, and he was going against precedent, the same one that allowed him to be King instead of his cousin. And if "FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD" is reason enough to justify Viserys crowning Rhaenyra, is reason enough for Aegon to challlenge her. After all, he had "FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD" in him as well, and the biggest dragon was on his side. Kinslaying is a sin against the Gods, but the Targaryens followed neither Gods nor men after all...This "FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD" you defend can literally justify anything, including Rhaenyra's own death- she was the one in charge when 5 dragons were killed, so she clearly didn't had "FIRRREEE UUUNNNDDD BLUUUUDDDD" enough.