Question about the strangler...

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Tears of Lys are known even to Tyrion. They are nowhere mentioned as an unusual or rare poison, while both sections of the book that mention the strangler by name involve a Maester, a disclaimer about its rarity, and the fact that it is specifically known at the Citadel.

I'm not particularly hung-up on this concept, but I find the general dismissal of it a little odd In comparison, there are two instances of a poisoner using a poisoned coin: the Alchemist, and Arya. So the next time we see a poisoned coin, we should assume that it came from a Faceless Man. I doubt anyone would argue that, and simply say that poisoned coins are probably a 'dragon a dozen'. So why so little regard for the association of a different poison with the Citadel?

Because, really, nobody actually told the poison came from the Citadel in the first place. OK, maybe Cressen's had. But he listed some guilds that mastered its brewing: maesters, Faceless Men, alchemists from Lys. Pycelle, again, said nothing of the poison's origin. Hell, he'd be probably mortified if he thought that his testimony could be interpreted that way. Maesters don't advertise the fact that they not only know of deadly poisons, but actually make them, too. "The alchemists of Lys knew the way of it, though, and the Faceless Men of Braavos . . . and the maesters of his order as well, though it was not something talked about beyond the walls of the Citadel."

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Asshai is the answer.

[tomkat364]

Because, really, nobody actually told the poison came from the Citadel in the first place. OK, maybe Cressen's had. But he listed some guilds that mastered its brewing: maesters, Faceless Men, alchemists from Lys. Pycelle, again, said nothing of the poison's origin. Hell, he'd be probably mortified if he thought that his testimony could be interpreted that way. Maesters don't advertise the fact that they not only know of deadly poisons, but actually make them, too. "The alchemists of Lys knew the way of it, though, and the Faceless Men of Braavos . . . and the maesters of his order as well, though it was not something talked about beyond the walls of the Citadel."

The Maesters know of it. It is made in the Citadel, amongst other places. The particular purple 'seed' that was put into the wine may not have been 'brewed' in the Citadel. I get it. But in both mentions of the actual poison we are told by Maesters of the Citadel's particular dealings with that particular rare poison. The Maesters also don't advertise that they killed the dragons, yet we are told that they did. So we have an influential group of people who are involved with the larger affairs of Westeros behind the scenes with an unknown endgame who are twice directly referenced with the rare poison that was used to kill a king. Why is this so outlandish?

[HexMachina]

The Maesters know of it. It is made in the Citadel, amongst other places. The particular purple 'seed' that was put into the wine may not have been 'brewed' in the Citadel. I get it. But in both mentions of the actual poison we are told by Maesters of the Citadel's particular dealings with that particular rare poison. The Maesters also don't advertise that they killed the dragons, yet we are told that they did. So we have an influential group of people who are involved with the larger affairs of Westeros behind the scenes with an unknown endgame who are twice directly referenced with the rare poison that was used to kill a king. Why is this so outlandish?

Because Pycelle is quite clearly Westeros' biggest Lannister fanboy and wouldn't dream of doing anything to harm them, especially while Tywin lived

[Ser Leftwich]

The Maesters know of it. It is made in the Citadel, amongst other places. The particular purple 'seed' that was put into the wine may not have been 'brewed' in the Citadel. I get it. But in both mentions of the actual poison we are told by Maesters of the Citadel's particular dealings with that particular rare poison. The Maesters also don't advertise that they killed the dragons, yet we are told that they did. So we have an influential group of people who are involved with the larger affairs of Westeros behind the scenes with an unknown endgame who are twice directly referenced with the rare poison that was used to kill a king. Why is this so outlandish?

1.) Why would the Citadel deal with LF? No reason to get involved with such a reprobate at LF, they could take care of it themselves if they wanted to.

2.) Why would the Citadel want Joffrey dead? Can't think of any reason. Also, see #1.

[tomkat364]

I agree. Pycelle would not be involved. Most Maesters have very little to do with the inner workings of the Citadel. The Archmaesters are the ones that Marwyn alleges are involved in the plotting. So while Pycelle would not have anything to do with offing Joffrey, the Citadel could still have some involvement.

[Ser Leftwich]

I agree. Pycelle would not be involved. Most Maesters have very little to do with the inner workings of the Citadel. The Archmaesters are the ones that Marwyn alleges are involved in the plotting. So while Pycelle would not have anything to do with offing Joffrey, the Citadel could still have some involvement.

If an Archmaester conspiracy does exist, there is no way that they would not staff the Grand Maester office with one of their own.

[tomkat364]

1.) Why would the Citadel deal with LF? No reason to get involved with such a reprobate at LF, they could take care of it themselves if they wanted to.

2.) Why would the Citadel want Joffrey dead? Can't think of any reason. Also, see #1.

Why did the Alchemist deal with Pate? By using Littlefinger, they would be taking care of it. They would have a clear interest in helping to ally the Tyrells with the Lannisters if for no other reason than to keep Stannis (with his red priestess magic loving advisor) off the throne. We all assume LF is only out for his own goals, but the Citadel is an unknown player at this point. Who's to say how they play the game?

And yet Pycelle does not appear to know anything of the inner workings of the Citadel. He was not an archmaester himself, and so they might benefit from having an unknowing patsy at court.

[HexMachina]

I agree. Pycelle would not be involved. Most Maesters have very little to do with the inner workings of the Citadel. The Archmaesters are the ones that Marwyn alleges are involved in the plotting. So while Pycelle would not have anything to do with offing Joffrey, the Citadel could still have some involvement.

Okay...and the Maesters want to kill Joffrey because...

ETA: your next post does not really answer this question. They want the Tyrells and Lannisters to ally with each other so they kill the Tyrell girl's Lannister husband? Ehhhhh...

And if you come out with "Ah, but because Joff was a monster and they needed to keep the Houses friendly, they couldn't well do that if Loras killed Joff..." Then we are right back to the reason Olenna conspired to kill him anyway and you've needlessly complicated the plot.

[tomkat364]

No, Olenna wanted Joffrey killed. That's evident from her grilling of Sansa at the breakfast. Littlefinger wants the Tyrells, the Tyrells want the marriage but not to Joffrey. So allowing Joffrey to be killed gives everyone what they want. Peace without Stannis on the throne. Margaery's betrothal was largely contingent on Joffrey's death... or am I reading that into the circumstances?

We assume that Littlefinger's motivation is removing Sansa from her betrothal, but killing Joffrey is completely unnecessary to meet that end.

[Ser Leftwich]

If the Strangler has to come from the maesters, why would they give it out? It just points a giant finger at them to ultimately be to blame for Joff's death.

Why would they agree to give it out/sell it without knowing who the target is? If they know the target is Joff, they have to agree that they either want Joff dead or are indifferent to his death AND that the blame would ultimately fall on a maester.

[Clegane'sPup]

So Joffrey was killed with the strangler, which Olenna or Margaery dropped into his cup of wine, having been smuggled into the wedding unknowingly by Sansa via hairnet.

snip

Cressen says the process to make the strangler was slow and difficult. The alchemists of Lys, the FM and maesters of his order know how to make it. Cressen also describes the strangler as a little crystal seed. Sansa's hair net is described as purple stones not little crystal seeds. Joff could have strangled on a gem stone not the strangler poison. As per Cressen: "They said a victims face turned as purlpe as the litte crystal seed was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.

Who wanted to kill Joffrey? I think there was long list of people who wanted to be rid of him.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Sorry, but is it so unbelievable that Littlefinger would have a stash of poisons to use as needed? He likes to have multiple plots going simultaneously, plans very far ahead, and has incredible connections. He could have acquired the Strangler a decade ago and was saving it for the right occasion.

[Morrigen]

1.) Why would the Citadel deal with LF? No reason to get involved with such a reprobate at LF, they could take care of it themselves if they wanted to.

2.) Why would the Citadel want Joffrey dead? Can't think of any reason. Also, see #1.

I doubt that The Great Manipulator LF would be obvious by dealing with the Maesters directly. If he had involvement, he most likely nudged the Tyrells into making the move.

Why would they want him dead? I suspect Bait. If the Citadel Conspiracy is to be believed, the most logical conclusion is the desire for Targaryen-baiting, by the succession of a new, weaker, King Tommen. If the kingdom is weak enough for a Targaryen invasion, who might invade? Targaryens. What does the only known Targ have: Living Dragons. The closer they are, the easier it is for Maesters to kill them.

Why did the Alchemist deal with Pate? By using Littlefinger, they would be taking care of it. They would have a clear interest in helping to ally the Tyrells with the Lannisters if for no other reason than to keep Stannis (with his red priestess magic loving advisor) off the throne. We all assume LF is only out for his own goals, but the Citadel is an unknown player at this point. Who's to say how they play the game?

And yet Pycelle does not appear to know anything of the inner workings of the Citadel. He was not an archmaester himself, and so they might benefit from having an unknowing patsy at court.

I think the "Using" goes both ways here.

If the Strangler has to come from the maesters, why would they give it out? It just points a giant finger at them to ultimately be to blame for Joff's death.

Why would they agree to give it out/sell it without knowing who the target is? If they know the target is Joff, they have to agree that they either want Joff dead or are indifferent to his death AND that the blame would ultimately fall on a maester.

If you can't prove it comes from the Maesters, then who can point a finger? We can't prove who procured it, or who infiltrated the Citadel, or who might have staged a buglary, etc.

[Morrigen]

Sorry, but is it so unbelievable that Littlefinger would have a stash of poisons to use as needed? He likes to have multiple plots going simultaneously, plans very far ahead, and has incredible connections. He could have acquired the Strangler a decade ago and was saving it for the right occasion.

I think it is very, very believable that he has been working on his plans for a very long time.

[Annarkie]

On a different note, does Sansa still have the hairnet? Does it still contain Strangler "seeds?" Some readers seem convinced she does but I thought LF took it away from her once they were on the ship.

[Fool of a Took]

I think you're thinking a little bit too much into this one.

I would say most obviously that Littlefinger is an extremely capable man when it comes to scheming. I think the man that is basically the catalyst for all of the events that have transpired in ASOIAF, is capable of acquiring some poison, whichever way he happened to do it.

Also, I haven't read all of the responses to the OP, but perhaps the Maester at Highgarden had knowledge of the Strangler and was able to provide it for the plot. To add to Littlefinger's prowess, Olenna Tyrell is nearly on the level of Littlefinger and Varys, perhaps more along the lines of Doran, when it comes to espionage and schemes.

IMO, not everything in these novels has to be delved into and torn apart, I think it's safe to assume that Littlefinger would have numerous ways to acquire some poison, however rare it may be.

[HexMachina]

On a different note, does Sansa still have the hairnet? Does it still contain Strangler "seeds?" Some readers seem convinced she does but I thought LF took it away from her once they were on the ship.

Its never mentioned as being taken away from her, so presumably she still has ot (since she had it when she met Ser Dontos in the Godswood to leave). You are confusing it with the show i think.

[Petyr's Little Finger]

LF could have easily paid off an acolyte in the Citadel to get hold of the Strangler. LF is one of the most powerful men in Westeros, I don't think obtaining the Strangler would have been too difficult for him.

[tomkat364]

Littlefinger is certainly capable of long term planning and scheming. However, even if he had the strangler in his possession for some time, the hairnet is given to Sansa conveniently upon his return to King's Landing with the Tyrells. This plan goes nowhere without Olenna, and the use of the hairnet smacks of 'a woman's touch.' I put a large part of the planning of this caper on the Queen of Thorns. Be that as it may, the only gain that Littlefinger gets directly from Joffrey's death is... well nothing. Sansa could have been abducted without the murder, and she was already not betrothed. Littlefinger only stands to gain from the Tyrells involvment, which is what frees Sansa from betrothal, and again, that could happen without the murder. So it stands to reason that the murder itself was instigated by Olenna, and Littlefinger was involved.