Why did Rhaegar and Lyanna have to run away?

[TyshaLives]

Where is that specifically stated?

Just a theory. Based on the Tully-Stark marriage plans, fostering of Baratheon and Stark at the Vale.. Like they might've been too close for Aerys' comfort.

[devilish]

I think he would have been better off if he talked with Rickard Stark first instead of fleeing. Rickard wouldn't have liked it since this matchup was far from ideal (Lyanna was promised to Robert, Rhaegar was married etc). However unless Rickard is stupid he would prefer an unconventional matchup then an open rebellion.

With the Starks at Rhaegar side, the Tullys would probably not have joined the rebellion. Old Arryn would have had to decide whether he would fight against Robert, Eddard or seek neutrality, the third being the most plausible option. Under such circumstances there would probably be no rebellion at all as Robert would be stupid to start a war without any allies to help him out.

[TyshaLives]

@devilish:

Yes! That's how my understanding of Rhaegar's character goes. That's why I feel something happened that forced his hand and led to the kidnap'.

[Aetta]

Important to remember is that Rhaegar was reeeeeaaally into his prophecies and read something one day that changed his tune forever more. We have no idea what he read and how it may have affected his affections for Lyanna.

Say, for instance, that he was singing the song of Ice and Fire, thought he should meet a northern girl to fulfill his three-headed ambitions. This is discussed much in this forum, even suggesting that Elia was on board with the Lyanna thing due to Rhaegar convincing her he must live out some prophecy. And we don't know WHAT that old hag at Summerhall was telling him about his future.

So, to run away from the world at a time when love and prophecy was crossing paths makes a bit of sense. Destiny before honor.

I also have a silly conspiracy theory that ole Howland Reed had a hand in some of this, that he lead Ned right to where he knew Lyanna would be-maybe even lead Lyanna and Rhaegar to marriage on the Isle of Faces. If Howland encouraged this, all the more reason for Rhaegar to be very protective of every little step he took.

[Schattenkatze]

What puzzles me is the crowning of Lyanna at the tourney of Harrenhal. Why did Rhaegar publicly offend his wife and make everyone aware of his intentions? Elia is not described as a woman who "deserves" to be treated like that and there's no reason to offend the Starks and Baratheons. If he wanted to fullfill a prophecy and chose Lyanna or if they fell in love at the tourney and Rhaegar realized that she is the woman he needs to father a child with it must have been obvious that this will create a lot of trouble. So why make everyone aware of it at such a big event?

[UnmaskedLurker]

What puzzles me is the crowning of Lyanna at the tourney of Harrenhal. Why did Rhaegar publicly offend his wife and make everyone aware of his intentions? Elia is not described as a woman who "deserves" to be treated like that and there's no reason to offend the Starks and Baratheons. If he wanted to fullfill a prophecy and chose Lyanna or if they fell in love at the tourney and Rhaegar realized that she is the woman he needs to father a child with it must have been obvious that this will create a lot of trouble. So why make everyone aware of it at such a big event?

Welcome to the boards. :cheers:

Your question is one that has been the subject to a tremendous amount of speculation over the years -- and of course, no one knows for sure (other than GRRM and anyone else he has told). I think that the idea that Rhaegar already decided to run off with Lyanna at the time of the crowning at Harrenhal is a minority view (although maybe my personal bias is clouding my judgment on what is the majority and what is the minority view).

I can tell you my personal opinion is that Rhaegar had no intention of having any sort of romantic relationship with Lyanna at that time. I believe that the idea of running off with Lyanna only became a possibility in Rhaegar's mind after he found out that Elia could no longer have children, and Rhaegar needed to seek out a different woman to have the third head of the dragon. At the time of Harrenhal, Elia has not yet given birth to Aegon, so Rhaegar would still assume he would have the third head with Elia some time after the birth of Aegon.

So why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna if Rhaegar was not pronouncing romantic intentions? The best speculation I have read is that he wanted to acknowledge in his own way Lyanna's actions as the KotLT. She could not be publicly revealed as such because Aerys considered those actions to be treasonous, and a woman would have problems being revealed to have posed as a knight. But Rhaegar likely figured out what really happened and wanted to show his respect for Lyanna's actions. As crown prince, Rhaegar probably was used to doing what he wanted, so he was not really that concerned about the reactions of others. Maybe he should have been, but obviously at that time he was not.

As to any romantic implications, perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna were attracted to each at Harrenhal. But Rhaegar was married to Elia, and Lyanna was engaged to Robert. I doubt that either one of them, at that time, believed that they would ever have the opportunity to act on their attraction. But after Rhaegar needs to find a woman to have a third child to be the third head, and Lyanna grows increasingly concerned that Robert can never be a faithful husband, circumstances bring them together and lead to them running off and hiding. And you know how that turned out.

[Lord Varys]

The phrasing with Jaehaerys-Shaera (and Duncan-Jenny, too) is that Aegon V could have course have enforced an annulment. The High Septon was happy to arrange this for Duncan, and all Egg would have needed to do was to force Duncan/Jenny and Jaehaerys/Shaera to accept/ask for an annulment. He could have threatened their lives to make them comply, or have them tortured until they relent. We see how thoroughly Qyburn broke the Blue Bard.

But he chose to leave the decision to his children because he loved and respected them. And especially in Shaera's case I think he only accepted it because dissolving the marriage would have brought shame on his daughter.

Not to mention that Aegon V could always have ended the marriages without an annulment by simply forcing the women involved to join an order of the Faith - the Silent Sisters, for instance. That would have ended the marriage, too, and would have enabled both Duncan and Jaehaerys to marry their betrothed.

If polygamy was still a thing both Duncan, Jaehaerys, and Shaera could have taken their respective betrothed as second spouse, no? The fact that this is not even discussed strongly suggest that this was no longer an option.

As to the runaway thing:

That was utter stupidity as it endangered the dynasty and Rhaegar's family. The smart and decent thing would have been to go into exile or to publicly fight for this 'Lyanna thing'. He chose neither and paid the price for it. What he was thinking there is as of yet a mystery but I cannot imagine a scenario - even including additional information - in which Rhaegar comes out as the smart guy.

What do you think would have happened if Egg/Duncan had ignored the fallout of the Jenny crisis? The dynasty would have fallen. And Rhaegar must have known everything about that crisis and could thus have predicted what would happen. To prevent it he would have to present and active to put down a rebellion in its infancy.

Not to mention that the whole Aerys-Rhaegar relationship could easily have led to Rhaegar's own execution at his father's hands. If Aerys had jumped on this chance to declare his son a traitor nobody would have stood by him as the Martells, Starks, Baratheons (and by extension, the Arryns and Tullys) would have condemned him for his actions. It was Brandon's rash actions and Aerys' madness which caused the rebellion. Had Aerys II had the malice and cunning of Aegon IV he would have gleefully thrown his dogs to the wolves.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

I am not 100% certain I follow your points. Sure, I guess someone always can be tortured or threatened to force them to do what you want. I suspect everyone would agree on that point. But what is the significance of that observation? Are you suggesting that Rhaegar tortured Elia until she gave him an annulment?

As to polygamy--no one that I have seen on the side that believes that Rhaegar had a polygamous marriage with Lyanna believes that polygamy was generally or easily available to anyone in Westeros. In fact, the potential legal penalties surrounding polygamy are a big part of why I think Rhaegar and Lyanna thought they had to go into hiding. If polygamy was easily accepted, they could have done it in the open. The problem with Duncan, Jaehaery and Shaera was that they avoided political marriages -- having the political marriage be the second wife or husband would not accomplish the political goals that the political marriages were intended to achieve. Polygamy was not socially accepted and would be viewed as insulting to the "second" spouse. You continually conflate concept in your analysis -- political or social acceptance is not the same as legal recognition -- and evidence of potential penalties for polygamy is not the same as evidence that a polygamous marriage is not recognized as a marriage.

As to the runaway thing -- obviously Rhaegar was taking a big risk. I think he knew he was taking a big risk. I think he thought he had to take the risk. Assuming that Jon is TPTWP and ends up being critical in saving the world, I suspect Rhaegar's view would be "mission accomplished" regardless what happened to him or the Targ dynasty.

But as to why Rhaegar ran away -- I have stated that I think Rhaegar's plan -- if no war had broken out -- was to return to KL only after the baby was born, with his new wife and child with him. Was Rhaegar still running a big risk -- yes -- but for some reason, Rhaegar seemed to think that Aerys would be better handled this way. This plan -- or whatever plan Rhaegar had -- was never carried out to its endgame, so the readers never have an opportunity to know whether it would have worked. I suspect, however, that GRRM will eventually confirm what this plan was and then each reader can decide whether it seemed like a reasonable plan or a horrible plan.

[Lord Varys]

Nope, I'm saying that Aegon V did not do everything what he could have done to undo the marriages of his children. And that a king had the power to make and unmake marriages at his whim if he had the backing of the Faith in that enterprise (which Aegon V had, at least in the Jenny affair).

Kings can also take a new wife and discard the old one. That's called 'setting aside the wife', and may be what Rhaegar did with Elia - or not, that's not clear yet. But I'm not sure that he as a prince had the authority to do something like that. I imagine that Rhaegar's second marriage's status would have been a mess had he went through with publicly - was he discarding Elia and replacing her with Lyanna?

Polygamy was no longer a practiced political alternative after Aegon and Maegor - and it wasn't really accepted during the reign of Maegor. If you look at him he effectively set aside Ceryse after and replaced her with Alys, never sharing home and bed again with Ceryse. Alys was later Maegor's queen, and he also married Tyanna, but was she actually his queen or rather a secondary wife? She is never styled queen. Maegor's full-blown polygamy only begins in 47 AC when he is still married to Tyanna - Alys was executed in 44 AC - and takes Rhaena, Jeyne, and Elinor as additional wives.

We see that it never comes up when it might have resolved stuff which would have been the case if it was still a viable concept.

In Rhaegar's case we have to ask what happened during/after abduction. It does not seem as if Lyanna was prepared to run away with Rhaegar, and if this was the case, then the wedding would have been not exactly the next thing after the abduction if Lyanna was not forced to marry him. Going underground in Westeros is not going to help anyone - not his marriage, not his family, not his dynasty, the Realm, or his bride's family.

Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the promised prince, and his actions led to Aegon's death. That wasn't a great idea, no? One should assume that Rhaegar had tried to keep safe/away from his father. And he failed to do this twice - first when he left Dragonstone and then when he left him in the Red Keep. And the idea that there would be no war/rebellion if he just disappeared - Aerys aside, Robert was not very like to ignore this slight to his honor. It was exactly the same situation as in the Duncan-Jenny affair, and Rhaegar must have known about that.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

Again, you conflate issues and assume facts not yet demonstrated.

I agree that polygamy generally was not a viable solution to political issues. But that result would be true regardless whether a polygamous marriage was considered a marriage or not considered a marriage. Polygamy generally was not socially acceptable -- especially among anyone who followed the Faith. So even if polygamy could have been a technical way to "solve" the problem -- it would not solve the problem in fact because the other parties involved in the situation never would accept polygamy as a viable option. So legality -- or more precisely the ability to enter into a polygamous marriage (I have always acknowledged that a polygamous marriage -- at least under certain circumstances -- might be subject to penalty although still regarded as a real marriage) -- is not really the issue in any of those situations. Even if the "law" made polygamy 100% legal in all respects, polygamy still would not have been a viable option in any of those situations. The social stigma and political complications of multiple spouses would have precluded any such alternative.

But Rhaegar was not entering into a political marriage with Lyanna. I believe his motivation was to create the third head of the dragon. And I think Rhaegar thought he needed to take a second wife to do so. I don't think Rhaegar would have considered setting aside Elia, which I am not sure he even had to power to do without getting others involved, such as his father and the high septon. Rhaegar was not king, as you acknowledge.

As to the facts that you assume -- why do you assume that Lyanna was not prepared to run off with Rhaegar? We don't know what type of communication Rhaegar and Lyanna had between Harrenhal and the "abduction." I think that each of Rhaegar and Lyanna had a problem. Rhaegar needed a second wife to give birth to the third head of the dragon. Lyanna wanted out of her engagement to Robert. Rhaegar and Lyanna were attracted to each other -- grew close through some form of communication and decided to run away together. While you might be correct that Lyanna had not expected to run off with Rhaegar at that time, I don't know why you seem so certain that such an assumption is the case. We have no information regarding any type of communication that might have been going on between the two during that period. Given the problems surrounding Rhaegar taking a second wife and Lyanna breaking her engagement, I think they would have believed they had good reason to stay hidden for a while -- under my theory, until a baby is born.

I know that there is another theory that Rhaegar saved Lyanna from Aerys's troops who were prepared to take her to account for her actions as the KotLT. While I tend not to find that theory persuasive, if they were not in communication but rather Rhaegar saved Lyanna from Ayres's troops is the correct theory, that also would explain the need to go underground. Rhaegar would need to figure out how to smooth things over with Aerys after defeating his guards who were coming for Lyanna. Then they fall in love and get married during this period of time. Either way, there is a reason to stay in hiding.

Finally, why would Rhaegar think that taking Lyanna would lead to war? There is virtually no chance that Robert would have been able or even try to go to war if the events set off by Brandon and Aerys had not taken place. There is no evidence to support your assertion that Rhaegar should have considered war likely. Only after Jon Arryn basically is told that he needs to turn over Ned and Robert to be killed is there enough collective reason from enough different factions to go to war. Personally, I think that the mere action of disappearing with Lyanna -- even allowing the situation to look like a kidnapping -- never would have led to war directly in and of itself. In fact, the abduction is not ever really even used as a rational for the war once it occurs. The actions of Aerys are the stated reasons -- not the actions of Rhaegar.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

well, your marriage seems to consider a marriage valid that is conducted at gunpoint - which is essentially how Maegor made his marriages happen, too. If you believe that a society cannot make up rules preventing, say, polygamous marriages, incestuous marriage, or child marriages then you really have a problem. Marriage is a social construct. If a marriage is challenged/condemned by the majority of a society it is not valid.

Not to mention that the king can always refuse to even acknowledged that Rhaegar married Lyanna. If Aegon II could decree that Rhaenyra never was Queen who is to say a king could not decree that Rhaegar was never married to Lyanna?

What you believe does not concern my judgment of Rhaegar's character. I don't consider Rhaegar a rational being making smart decisions if decided to abduct and marry Lyanna in secret because of prophecy. This is about my assessment of Rhaegar as a character not the facts. If George's gives us this explanation I'll still consider Rhaegar to be an idiot for doing this.

And we know from ADwD that Lyanna was abducted at sword point. That suggests that there was no plan to run away with Rhaegar on Lyanna's side as she else may have been able to evade her guards and prevent an 'abduction scenario'. There is no confirmation that Lyanna wanted to end her engagement. All we know is that she was not particularly happy with the Robert thing. That's not the same as wanting to end an engagement. Running away with Rhaegar is not going to end it. It is causing trouble.

The 'Rhaegar saving Lyanna from Aerys' has effectively been debunked by TWoIaF. Aerys believed Jaime was the knight, and nothing suggest that he ever found out about Lyanna nor is there any hint that Rhaegar could have learned about that development on Dragonstone.

How is it that a Robert close to the Stark sons and the Lord of the Vale could not stage a rebellion after the Lyanna thing if his great-grandfather Lyonel Baratheon crowned himself again and rebelled after a similar situation? If this idea never struck Rhaegar's mind he would also have been stupid - even more so after staying underground and let the rebellion develop.

Thinking about it, Rhaegar is an idiot in every scenario. Acting to fulfill prophecy is stupid as is acting out of love. But a motivation can I understand. A prophecy/god complex not so much especially since this needs a good explanation - that is, a thorough explanation how Rhaegar reached the conclusion that he had to conceive the third dragon head. I know that he may have believed that but I'd really know the why there.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

Just as I acknowledged that an annulment might be done under coercion -- a marriage might be as well. Westeros has rules on what constitutes a marriage -- basically going through the formal steps required by the applicable religion under which the ceremony is being performed (Faith, Old Gods, Valaryan gods, drowned gods, etc). From every example that has been demonstrated in the books, if the steps are followed -- the marriage is a marriage. Whether punishment might occur (such as Maegor's exile) is a completely different question.

If a King could just refuse to acknowledge a marriage, Aenys would have done that with Maegor. Determining who actually sat the IT is different than defining a marriage. Once again, you make a false analogy. Many have claimed the throne, such as Daemon Blackfyre. The victors in the end get to determine who is regarded as having sat on the throne. Not only Aegon II refused to acknowledge Rhaenyra as having sat the IT, her own son Aegon III apparently accepted this judgment of history. But such a situation is completely different than saying that a marriage is not a marriage. And even if you are correct, that Aerys could do such a thing, the question remains whether without any such explicit action, would it be a marriage? In the past, you have suggested no, so Aerys would have no need to act if it is not a marriage under any circumstances. Again, if you are correct that it would be a marriage but the king can annul it unilaterally, it would be another reason to stay in hiding until the baby is born -- less likelihood that Aerys would try to "annul" the marriage.

As to Rhaegar's character -- while I have some interest in that issue, not nearly as much as figuring what he did and why. The question of character is much more subjective judgment of each reader -- I have greater interest in figuring out the objective facts -- what and why did the character do. But I also have trouble following your logic regarding the irrationality of following prophecy. Prophecy saved the Targs from the Doom. The woods witch gave additional information about the prophecy in terms of TPTWP coming from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Rhaegar may have been mistaken in many of his interpretations of the prophecy, but the stakes were high. This is a world with magic and prophecies proving to be true. He knows that his parents are to be the ancestors of a person who will save the world -- or at least he has good reason to believe this fact (and I think it will prove to be true in the form of Jon). So how can it be irrational or stupid to try to make sure that the prophecy is fulfilled? Given the time and place in which he lived, trying to save the world by ensuring that this prophecy would be fulfilled is very rational. But again, such judgments are the subjective view of each reader and are not a major area of interest for me.

You also assert that ADWD states that Lyanna was abducted as swordpoint. I did a search using "a search of ice and fire" and all I found was the following paragraph:

Side by side the queen's procession and Hizdahr zo Loraq's made their slow way across Meereen, until finally the Temple of the Graces loomed up before them, its golden domes flashing in the sun. How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her.

Based on this language, all we have are Dany's thoughts that Rhaegar took Lyanna at swordpoint. Dany has no first-hand knowledge. Unless you have a different quote from someone who was there (perhaps JonCon) who makes such a statement, there is absolutely no reliable evidence that Lyanna was taken at swordpoint. Please find me the quote that you think demonstrates that Lyanna was taken at swordpoint. I disagree strongly that the above paragraph does any such thing. I highly, highly doubt that Lyanna was taken at swordpoint.

I also don't think that WOIAF debunks anything regarding Aerys and the KotLT. While I tend to agree that such a scenario is unlikely, if Aerys changed his mind, GRRM would keep that under wraps at this point so as not to give too much away. Nevertheless, I tend to doubt that Aerys ever found out who really was the KotLT (so we perhaps agree on that point -- but for different reasons).

[Lord Varys]

UL,

I don't think a marriage done by coercion is technically valid in Westeros. Yet if you are in control of the Realm, have the High Septon on your side, and marry a hostage to your son or uncle (Tyrion-Sansa) then no one is going to challenge that marriage for the time being. Especially since the wronged party is a woman.

The Hornwood thing is sort of similar. Roose Bolton may insist that the marriage is valid 'because land is involved' but others may consider it invalid because Lady Hornwood was abducted and forced to marry Ramsay against her will. King Robb certainly would have had the final word in that matter.

In the Alys case you lack the full detail on the marriage. Aenys had Maegor made his Hand, they ruled the Realm together for 1-2 years by then. Aenys wasn't exactly the most strong-willed king, and like Aegon V he apparently wanted his brother to see reason and give up Alys voluntarily rather than separating them by force. He was pushed to punish him by the Hightowers and the Faith - it does not seem that he wanted to exile him. The Faith Militant is only one side of Aenys' downfall - the other is him sighting his own family (Maegor & Visenya who could have been an asset), and is inability to make firm decisions and take charge.

A more determined king could have decided to end this 'marriage' himself by forcefully separating Alys and Maegor and forcing him to live with Ceryse again. A marriage ceremony in itself doesn't make a marriage - certainly not one conducted in secret - it only becomes a 'real thing' socially if you end up living with the woman as if she was your wife. That's what Maegor did with Alys, and that's also what Aenys could have ended as king. And he could easily have decreed that 'for members of our most noble and ancient lines only marriage rites conducted by a Septon of the Faith may be considered to be valid from now on'. My point with the decree analogy is that this shows the power the kings have. They can make and change law, and invent and make up legal stuff to do whatever the hell they want. This should include marriage stuff.

The Hightowers and the Faith wanted to unmake/not recognize the marriage - which means that they believed this could be done, no? And Aenys himself does not seem to have considered the marriage to be valid as he told Septon Murmison to make Ceryse fertile so that Maegor would return to her - which means he hoped Maegor would see his folly and return to his true wife, effectively ending his 'false marriage'.

Rhaenyra actually sat the Iron Throne and was the chosen heir of her father. That's different from being a failed pretender like Renly or Daemon Blackfyre who never sat on the Iron Throne and weren't recognized as heirs to the Iron Throne.

As to Rhaegar's marriage:

If it was a secret marriage without any trustworthy/impartial witnesses then Aerys might not even have to unmake the marriage, yes, as he could simply execute/disinherit Rhaegar for the crime of abducting Lyanna Stark, and the 'treason' of inciting a rebellion against the king/causing problems for him in the process.

If Rhaegar had found enough cronies to support him in this polygamy enterprise and, say, the Whents had invited many people to his public wedding at Harrenhal things would have been more difficult. But if Aerys and the High Septon had been on one mind in the matter - which seems to be very likely - they could have publicly condemned the thing, declared it invalid since Rhaegar was already married, and had no permission to take a second wife, and then the thing would have only stood if Rhaegar had won a war against his father. And somehow I think the Starks, Baratheons, Martells, Tullys and Arryns would have not fought on Rhaegar's side in that war.

A child of that union wouldn't change that. If the marriage was invalid, the child would be considered to be bastard-born. The idea that Aerys could be swayed by a child to accept Lyanna - and forgive Rhaegar for everything his mad endeavor had done to the dynasty and the Realm - is very unlikely if we think how he had reacted to Rhaenys' birth.

As to prophecy being an irrational motivation:

The point there is that Rhaegar would be motivated by his own interpretation of the prophecy and his messiah complex (which is also a motivational hole as we don't know why/how he concluded that he should be the one fathering the third dragon head), not the literal text of the prophecy. Daenys the Dreamer most likely literally foresaw the Doom of Valyria in her dreams. Rhaegar just had a scroll and the Ghost's prophecy to work on, and neither mentioned him. If the text of the prophecy read: 'The promised prince/third dragon head will be conceived by Rhaegar Targaryen, firstborn son of King Aerys II Targaryen and his sister-wife Rhaella, and Lyanna of House Stark, the only daughter of thed Lord Rickard Stark by his cousin and wife Lyarra Stark.' then I'd agree that his reasoning would make sense. Without that all he had was guesswork. And you don't endanger your family and friends because you might or could be right. Rhaegar believed he had been wrong before which means he would have known that he could be wrong again.

Not to mention that Rhaegar - and all the Targaryens since Aerys I - also seems to have had no clue what the hell the promised prince is supposed to do. Else they would have made huge efforts to strengthen the Night's Watch. Which means that he may not even have believed that the promised prince would save the world...

If George explains Rhaegar's motivation mainly with 'prophecy' and not 'deep and irrational love' and an 'immature yet understandable desire to flee from his responsibilities in an Ygritte-Jon-cave-like fashion' then I'd consider Rhaegar not a very convincing character and the explanation clearly at odds with the facts. The heavy emphasis on the prophecy-angle invalidates the underlying love story, and a lot of their actions make more sense if (at least) Rhaegar wants to flee family, friends, and responsibilities rather than saving the world by fucking some girl in a remote tower.

Especially if Jon Snow is a dragon head or the promised prince it would be sort cheapening the way the prophecy fulfilled itself if it had been done intentionally rather than accidentally.

Daenerys has intimate information on her family's history from Viserys. That is more than we have. Rhaegar might have spoken to Aerys, Rhaella, and Viserys after his return from the tower and told them what he had done and why, or Viserys may have heard stories about that from other friends of Rhaegar - after all, Rhaegar took twelve companions to the Riverlands only two of which were the KG knights. The other men may have returned with him to KL, and may have talked to Viserys, Rhaella, and Ser Willem Darry - who then later told Dany about it. Daenerys knows that Rhaegar died for the woman he loved. That much we know since AGoT.

In conclusion I'd say Dany's knowledge and the fact that Brandon believed Lyanna had been abducted strongly suggests that there was an abduction scenario. And this suggests that Lyanna was surprised by the thing - perhaps pleasantly surprised, but still surprised. If Lyanna had been privy to the plan, and if her character is any indication, then I'd expect her to arrange a scenario in which she could evade her guards/entourage - after all, she was one of the best riders of her day and age - and secretly meeting with Rhaegar elsewhere which would not allow Brandon to draw the conclusion that Rhaegar was involved at all or that his sister was abducted. Nor would have reacted as angry as he did, I'd think, if he had been under the impression that Lyanna had just run away. It is huge leap from 'my sister has run away' to 'the Prince of Dragonstone has done it' - unless you have witnesses, of course!

Since we now know also how close Rhaegar was with the Whents, and as it seems that Lyanna was staying at Harrenhal for the time being, Rhaegar could have pulled off the whole thing with Oswell/Walter's help. He did not need Lyanna's cooperation and assistance.

[John Doe]

Because he couldn't rape her in public.

[joluoto2]

I think it was because Rhaegar knew that doing things publicly could cause

a) The Starks causing a problems, because I think Brandon got the news much sooner than Rhaegar thought the Starks would find out.

b ) Aerys causing problems, he couldn't predict what his mad father would do, there was even the risk that Aerys just would have sent Lyanna back to her family, and used this incident to move against his son.

c) The Martells causing problems. They would consider this a grave insult, and there are signs that they did. It wasn't until Elia and her children were made hostages by Aerys that they actually joined the loyalists.

I think Rhaegar hadn't counted on the possibility that the news would spread fast. I think he thought everyone would just assume Lyanna was attacked by bandits, and start look for her, but that his involvement would remain unknown.

[Lord Varys]

Well, if Rhaegar did really wanted to cover his tracks he and his companions could (and should) have killed Lyanna's companions/guards. Then the whole thing would not have come out. Hiding in Westeros - and in the Red Mountains of all places - also doesn't make any sense if he wants to evade his father, the Baratheons/Starks, or the Martells.After all, Aerys, Doran, or the rebels could eventually have found him there and he did not exactly have an army to deal with them. Leaving Westeros altogether would have been a much better idea.

Not considering/thinking the consequences of his actions through makes much more sense.

[Justin Amey]

To me, Rhaegar was finding a way to hide FROM VARYS and his spies. On the way, he found Lyanna.

And then, Jon.

So he went all the way north to hide from from Varys just to go all the way South?

Poligamy was banished from the Targaryen's custom since Maegor the Cruel, he was the last one to marry more than one wife at the same time.

So yes, Jon would still be a bastard according to the Faith of the Seven, that is the official religion of the Iron Throne.

Rhaegar was still just a prince, i don't think he could have just gotten the authority to just marry a second wife.

They are both seen as illegal in the eyes of the Faith, but a KING can sanction them. In the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna we know that Aerys did not give them permission.

If either was legal we would see other people commit polygamy and incest, we have no examples of 300 years of anyone doing these acts other than marriages allowed by the King.

Why would the king sanction an illegal 2nd marriage With an already married Rhaegar and Lyanna when he wasn't all that fond the his marriage with Elia. Dorne was a far better ally realm that the north to the Targs???

[Nami]

I just wonder why R and L didn't at least try to get married peacefully first. They could have at least informed their families about their love.

And I kind of have my own theories to that question.

Lyanna couldn't tell because the Starks are very very very honorable and they don't break betrothals.

Rhaegar couldn't tell because Aerys would see it as an alliance marriage between the North and the Crown Prince to overthrow him (since he already felt Winterfell, the Vale, Storm's End, Riverrun were plotting something and Aerys was estranged from Casterly Rock)

Aerys was losing his mind quickly I doubt he would let Rhaegar marry Lyanna anyway

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

UNDERSTANDING IS A THREE EDGE SWORD;

Targaryen fan boys ; Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love and ran off together .

Robert Baratheon ; Rhaegar took Lyanna against her will .

The Truth ; We may never know the entire story but what we do know ,Rhaegar was a prophecy nut and in the year 282 he disappeared with Lyanna .Lyanna was not that too thrilled to be betrothed to Robert Baratheon for rumors of whoring . Starks is all about duty . Aerys was paranoid .

Perhaps every we think is completely wrong . About Rhaegar ,Aerys ,Lyanna ,Brandon, Robert ,Eddard and the King's Guards. Perhaps it all was a comedy of errors that ended tragically .