Rhaegar Elopement or Abduction of Lyanna does not make sense

[Black Dragons]

This abduction does not make sense if Rhaegar wanted to marry Lyanna why the running the away?. If people on this board know the history of Jaehaerys II and his sister Shaera got marry secretly then broke news this cause some anger amongst with the Houses Tyrell and Tully. After while the King accept it, there was no need to running away. The other story that Duncan Targaryen betrothed to the daughter of House Baratheon but he marry Jenny Oldstone the lord of House Baratheon was piss off and started a rebellion but, Duncan the Tall fought him and won (the King gave his youngest daughter to the heir of Baratheon just to keep him quiet. If Lyanna love Rhaegar why the half year of going missing? Lyanna and Rhaegar could just got marry secretly and stay at King Landing and when Brandon came along tell him the news and yes this will piss off Robert. Rhaegar could have try paid him This Abduction was NOT necessary .

[Cladinator]

I don't know.

[aquintus]

if Rhaegar wanted to marry Lyanna why the running the away?.

Because Lyanna was already engaged to Robert. There's reason to believe that Rhaegar wasn't Aerys' favorite person, so counting on him to protect them wasn't an option. That's why they didn't go to King's Landing.

[lyannaisalive]

This abduction does not make sense if Rhaegar wanted to marry Lyanna why the running the away?. If people on this board know the history of Jaehaerys II and his sister Shaera got marry secretly then broke news this cause some anger amongst with the Houses Tyrell and Tully. After while the King accept it, there was no need to running away. The other story that Duncan Targaryen betrothed to the daughter of House Baratheon but he marry Jenny Oldstone the lord of House Baratheon was piss off and started a rebellion but, Duncan the Tall fought him and won (the King gave his youngest daughter to the heir of Baratheon just to keep him quiet. If Lyanna love Rhaegar why the half year of going missing? Lyanna and Rhaegar could just got marry secretly and stay at King Landing and when Brandon came along tell him the news and yes this will piss off Robert. Rhaegar could have try paid him This Abduction was NOT necessary .

Its not as simple as that.... Lyanna was Rickan starks daughter thus what happens to her is completely his decision. HE would have the right to go to war over this and not to mention Dorne would not be happy that he pushed Elia aside and took Lyanna as a bride. And as her betrothed Robert would have had the right to challenge Rhaegar as well, we know how that turned out. INother words the outcome is likely the same.

[Black Dragons]

Its not as simple as that.... Lyanna was Rickan starks daughter thus what happens to her is completely his decision. HE would have the right to go to war over this and not to mention Dorne would not be happy that he pushed Elia aside and took Lyanna as a bride. And as her betrothed Robert would have had the right to challenge Rhaegar as well, we know how that turned out. INother words the outcome is likely the same.

who said anything about pushing Elia Martell away? He will have two wives and two children and the son was will be always the heir of 7 kingdoms this story does not make any sense. yes you are right the Robert would have challenge Rhaegar but it would not be blood bath that it was, I believe if Brandon and his father did not died this war would not happen.

[lyannaisalive]

who said anything about pushing Elia Martell away? He will have two wives and two children and the son was will be always the heir of 7 kingdoms this story does not make any sense.

Lyannas children would always be a threat to elias children and the inheritance. to deny that would be dumb. Dorne would see it as an insult and a threat and would not be happy

[-SaH-]

The best part is that we never (?) fully known what happened.
But it seems to me that You don't consider love and (probably) Rhaegar obsession or devotion to fulfil the prophecy.
In that conditions, having a secret child and trying to hide is not so strange.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I believe that Lyanna was abducted by men working for Aerys and Rhaegar rescued her from them. That why he didn't take her to KL or return there himself And that's why the physical evidence left by Lyanna's disappearance pointed to an abduction. People put two and two together and (not unreasonably) concluded that Rhaegar abducted her.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think the answer to the OP question is important to understanding what was going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna. The idea that Rhaegar actually kidnapped Lyanna against her will can be easily dismissed. Ned knew what really happened and he has only positive thoughts regarding Rhaegar -- not likely if he was under the impression that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Ned's sister. So logically, we can conclude that Rhaegar and Lyanna went together willingly. The evidence that they got married is strong. There are many threads that have discussed this issue. I won't go into too much detail here, but I don't think Rhaegar or Lyanna were the type who simply arrange for Lyanna to be Rhaegar's mistress and have his bastard children. The little we know about their characters make such an arrangement unlikely. There are other reasons as well -- go search for those threads if you want more evidence that they got married.

So the big question raised by the OP -- a very good question that I have give quite a lot of thought to -- is why not got to KL and announce the marriage immediately. I agree that Rhaegar knew the history of Aegon V's children marrying who they wanted. Rhaegar also knows about what happened when Maegor married a second wife. Rhaegar and Aerys were not on the best terms. A suggestion exists that Rhaegar intended to replace Aerys. Aerys was suspicious of Rhaegar. Aerys could have decided to punish Rhaegar for marrying Lyanna. Rhaegar arguably broke the law -- getting married without his father's permission -- particularly a polygamous marriage. While the marriage would still be a marriage -- Aerys could have called it a crime. Maegor was exiled for entering into a non-sanctioned polygamous marriage. He only returned to Westeros by force.

So what was Rhaegar's endgame? I doubt he planned to stay at ToJ forever -- or some other hiding place forever. What was he waiting for? I believe he was waiting for the baby to be born. Rhaegar needed a third child because Rhaegar believe that "the dragon must have three heads" which in Rheagar's mind meant he needed three royal children to "save the world" and fulfill TPTWP prophecy. Once the baby was born, I believe Rhaegar intended to return to KL with his wife and child in the expectation that with an infant in tow, Aerys would relent and give his blessing to the marriage. If Aerys refused, the back-up plan likely was to take his two wives and three children into exile and train his children to be prepared for their role as the three heads of the dragon. But Rhaegar's best chance to accomplish his goals was to wait until the baby was born and then return to KL. Of course, the war got in the way of those plans (best laid plans . . . ).

[Mal Malenkirk]

Of course, the war got in the way of those plans (best laid plans . . . ).

Well, any plan that involves disappearing for a year and leaving others to call the shots, including a mentally ill father suddenly at odds with a few of the most powerful lords in the realm because of who you chose to elope with, is really not a best laid plan. It's a rather shitty one.

Which is not to say I believe you're wrong. I don't have a high opinion of Rhaegar's political acumen.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, any plan that involves disappearing for a year and leaving others to call the shots, including a mentally ill father suddenly at odds with a few of the most powerful lords in the realm because of who you chose to elope with, is really not a best laid plan. It's a rather shitty one.

Which is not to say I believe you're wrong. I don't have a high opinion of Rhaegar's political acumen.

I never said anything about thinking Rhaegar had a great plan or great political acumen. But consider Rhaeagar's priorities. He wanted to get rid of Aerys, but was thwarted at Harrenhal and then got distracted from this mission. What other mission did he focus on? Apparently, fulfilling the prophecy.

Try to put yourself in Rhaegar's frame of mind. He finds out his wife can have no more children. He believes his life mission is to have three children -- one of whom will be TPTWP and the other two will be the other two heads of the dragon -- and as a team, the three of them will save the world. Rhaegar's job is to make sure these three children are born and trained to win the battle to come. Rhaegar does not know exactly in what form the danger will come -- but he believes it is coming and the three heads need to be prepared to win.

I believe in Rhaegar's mind the only way to have the required third child is to have a second wife because Elia cannot give him a third child. He presumably has some contact with Lyanna and they get close. He knows she wants out of her marriage to Robert. He gives her a solution -- marry him instead. I think it also occurs to Rhaegar that Lyanna is ice to his fire and so if the song of TPTWP is ASOIAF, then his child with Lyanna (and not Aegon) will be TPTWP. This realization makes marrying Lyanna and having a child with her even more important.

So what can he do? He will never get permission to marry Lyanna (or probably any second wife). He believes he must save the world, which involves him marrying Lyanna and having a child with her. Accomplishing these goals come before any other goals because the fate of mankind rests on his shoulders. So he decides to go into hiding until a baby can be born. He has no idea that Lyanna's brother will get himself and his father killed in KL or that Aerys will demand the heads of Ned and Robert. Predicting such disastrous events requires more than political acumen -- it requires fortune telling.

So given the goals that Rhaegar had and the imperative he believed he was under to marry Lyanna and have a child with her -- do you have a better plan? I cannot think of one. It may not be a great plan, but it was probably the best one available under the circumstances.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Predicting such disastrous events requires more than political acumen -- it requires fortune telling.

Ironically, assuming he was trying to fulfill the prophecy, fortune telling is exactly what Rhaegar was into! :lol:

ETA: Also, what kind of shitty prophecies require you to actively decipher them and then fulfill them on purpose? It's a fool's game trying to fulfill prophecies on purpose. How about you live your life trying to protect your family and fulfilling your duties as best you are able, basing your decisions and actions on that? Prophecies will take care of themselves.

If Rhaegar had focused on removing his father and then ruling justly, the realm would be strong today and united, in good position to face the Others. It's not unlikely Elia would have died of natural cause by now and lo and behold Rhaegar could have had a third child from a legitimate second marriage somewhere in the last 15 years. And he'd then be in great position to stop the White Walkers in their track. There you go, prophecy fulfilled by merely doing your normal job as well as you can!

ETA 2: Predicting the exact outcome of leaving his mentally ill father clashing with a few lord Paramounts might have been impossible, but predicting it would get chaotic with a high risk of spiralling out of control wasn't.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ironically, assuming he was trying to fulfill the prophecy, fortune telling is exactly what Rhaegar was into! :lol:

ETA: Also, what kind of shitty prophecies require you to actively decipher them and then fulfill them on purpose? It's a fool's game trying to fulfill prophecies on purpose. How about you live your life trying to protect your family and fulfilling your duties as best you are able, basing your decisions and actions on that? Prophecies will take care of themselves.

If Rhaegar had focused on removing his father and then ruling justly, the realm would be strong today and united, in good position to face the Others. Maybe Elia would have died of natural cause by now and lo and behold Rhaegar would have third child from a legitimate second marriage. And he'd then stop the White Walkers in their track. Prophecy fulfilled by merely doing your normal job as well as you can!

Well, to be technical, Rhaegar was into interpreting other people's fortune telling -- not actually engaging in any fortune telling himself.

But to address your main point regarding "fool's errand" -- that could be said of every character in every novel that has ever been written that includes prophecy. One or more characters always tries to interpret/respond to the prophecy. Disaster almost always results.

But put yourself in Rhaegar's place -- living in that time and place (and unaware of the literary tradition telling everyone to just let the prophecy take care of itself) -- I doubt you would be so sanguine about the prophecy, especially after finding out your wife could not have the third child. And, of course, in the end the world will be saved only because Rhaegar did pay attention to the prophecy. Jon would not have been born otherwise and if Jon is TPTWP (or at least one of the heads of the dragon), the world might be in for the end if Jon had not been born.

[239JMFL34109]

if lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree and the mad king found out he might have started out just trying to get her away from his dad. It was then all varys trying to set up a war between father and son.

[Mal Malenkirk]

...and if Jon is TPTWP (or at least one of the heads of the dragon), the world might be in for the end if Jon had not been born.

We'll have to see about how he saves the world. If it's mostly leadership ability, then it will make Rhaegar's action seem moronic. The main reason Westeros needs leadership against the Other is that it's currently divided. And Rhaegar played a role in that, didn't he? In other words, Rhaegar's failure played a large role in the need for leader savior today. There would be no need for Jon if Rhaegar hadn't fucked up and managed to succeed his father and keep the realm united!

Now, if Jon saves the realm through pure magic that could only result from mixing Stark and Targaryen blood, I'll reconsider. But that's not what we see in this serie. A lot of characters swears by bloodline and all that but on the ground things tend to be settled through diplomacy and war, like in the real world. If Jon's solution to the crisis is magic deus ex machina derived from his bloodline, it'll be a weird conclusion to the serie but it will indeed vindicate Rhaegar.

Until then, I'll assume he was a bit of a political moron and not the wisest tool in the shed.

[239JMFL34109]

We'll have to see about how he saves the world. If it's mostly leadership ability, then it will make Rhaegar's action seem moronic. The main reason Westeros needs leadership against the Other is that it's currently divided. And Rhaegar played a role in that, didn't he? In other words, Rhaegar's failure played a large role in the need for leader savior today. There would be no need for Jon if Rhaegar hadn't fucked up and managed to succeed his father and keep the realm united!

Now, if Jon saves the realm through pure magic that could only result from mixing Stark and Targaryen blood, I'll reconsider. But that's not what we see in this serie. A lot of characters swears by bloodline and all that but on the ground things tend to be settled through diplomacy and war, like in the real world. If Jon's solution to the crisis is magic deus ex machina derived from his bloodline, it'll be a weird conclusion to the serie but it will indeed vindicate Rhaegar.

Until then, I'll assume he was a bit of a political moron and not the wisest tool in the shed.

again why does everyone assume that there was a marriage plan or etc.. to begin with i could totally see rhaegar just trying to protect her from his dad and it growing out of control.

[UnmaskedLurker]

again why does everyone assume that there was a marriage plan or etc.. to begin with i could totally see rhaegar just trying to protect her from his dad and it growing out of control.

Shameless self-promotion -- I wrote an OP on this very subject -- see thread here. That thread was written before WOIAF, so some of my thinking my be slightly different today, but that OP will give you a pretty good idea of why I am fairly convinced that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

again why does everyone assume that there was a marriage plan or etc.. to begin with i could totally see rhaegar just trying to protect her from his dad and it growing out of control.

I don't think this makes a lot of sense - if her personal security was the point, it seems to me that she'd be better protected anywhere north of the Neck, preferably in her father's castle.

[walkingWITHcersei]

I've been toying with the possibility that Rhaegar may have accidentally revealed Lyanna as the KotLT by crowning her QoLaB, and that the abduction (if that's what it was) may have been an effort to protect her from Aerys. If I'm right it explains why Brandon overreacted when Lyanna was crowned (not bc Rhaegar was hitting on her but bc he endangered her life by crowning her), why Robert didn't overreact (bc Rhaegar wasn't making a move on his girl), and why Aerys demanded Robert & Neds heads as well (bc to Aerys the entire Stark family was plotting treason including Lyanna bc to Aerys tKotLT was part of the plot). Don't know if I'm right but it explains so many things, especially Aerys wanting R&N's heads, that I feel I'm in the ballpark. Any thoughts?

[239JMFL34109]

Shameless self-promotion -- I wrote an OP on this very subject -- see thread here. That thread was written before WOIAF, so some of my thinking my be slightly different today, but that OP will give you a pretty good idea of why I am fairly convinced that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

i am not saying they didn't marry but who says they runaway together to get marry and not run away and then decided to marry?

Prince charming comes to protect her, he doesn't love his wife, he love her, and they are basically alone. totally see a romance brewing and a suprise marriage.