The Tower of Joy- What exactly happened?

[phbahia]

We all know the main things that took place: There was a showdown in which three kingsguard members and five northmen died, Ned and Howland Reed went inside and found Lyanna dying with baby Jon with her. Ned promised Lyanna to tell people the baby was his and she died. Pretty straight forward right? Maybe not?

First: How did Lyanna manage to have the baby on her own? I mean unless Arthur Dayne or the other kingsguards were actually midwifes they couldn't have been much help.

Second: The kingsguard are supposed to protect the king, so why the hell did they ride to Dorne with Rhaegar to guard his lover and a tower no one knew existed and just leave the king in King's Landing? Ser Gerold was Lord Commander and a very honorable man, so why did he leave the king? Did Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell plan to crown Rhaegar after the rebellion or something? Besides when Rhaegar leaves for the Trident he takes the remaining Kingsguard with him, leaving the king only with Jaime, the son of a guy you should not really trust, and Aerys did not trust at all? The only thing that makes sense is that Rhaegar wanted his father to die and he would become king, well Robert's warhammer disagreed.

Third: Ned had just left Storm's End to go find his sister, and all of the sudden he comes back with a baby and everyone believes it is his? Was the baby generated and born in a week?

I know it sound like nitpicking, but these things annoy me a bit.

[Northbound3.0]

https://youtu.be/R5kPUFxXYLs

[Dorian Martell]

All the info we have comes from Ned's fever dream. A prince and his mistress would not be without servants, especially is she was pregnant, then again, maybe the lack of support is why she died. Ned then went to Starfall to deliver Dawn to the Daynes. There is plenty of time for ned to find, bang and take a baby from some lowborn woman on the journey, but that probably isn't what happened.

[The Bastard of Walton]

My thinking on these questions, A midwife was almost definitely present. The Kingsguard had somehow been persuaded by Rhaegar that His & Lyannas child was the rightful heir & needed protecting. Ned travelling from Storms End, to Dorne, to Starfall, then back to Winterfell gave him good enough time to concoct a story, plus Ned being Ned is a good enough cover, anytime any one tried to ask, he simply says he won't discuss it & people would see it as his damaged honour.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

Whilst this particular topic has been discussed to death, there's something that I've always wanted to point out: The Kingsguard go where the King and the Royal Family tell the to go. The fact that Arthur and the others were at the Tower of Joy is often cited as "proof" that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (and thus their child was a true Targaryen), it's not.

Anyway, with this in mind:

Second: The kingsguard are supposed to protect the king, so why the hell did they ride to Dorne with Rhaegar to guard his lover and a tower no one knew existed and just leave the king in King's Landing?

They were simply following Rhaegar's orders, exactly as they were supposed to, honour-bound to even.

[Fitzochris01]

I was hoping the graphic novel would shed some light in visual form... Alas it didn't. Not really, at any rate.

[SevasTra82]

1 - There could have been a wet nurse present, or some sort of servant. I would think if Lyanna was pregnant she would have an aid with her. The events of that day are still a little shrouded in mystery, so the presense of a wet nurse has yet to be revealed.

2 - The Kingsguard is suppose to protect the *royal family*, not just the king. Rhaegar was the prince in waiting and had control over the kingsguard. As you said, they are honorable men, and Rhaegar instructed them to guard Lyanna and his unborn son at the TOJ. Rhaegar knew that Lyanna's baby (Jon) was HIS heir, so he protected the future line with the 3 best members of the Kingsguard. They did their duty. Jaime was known as the best swordsman in the land, so leaving him with Aerys, in a castle filled with his supporters and knights, isn't really a stretch. Sure, Jaime looks dishonorable NOW in hindsight, but at the time, nobody saw his betrayal coming.

3 - Ned was always up and about, and he never truly told anyone where Jon came from, so It's not really that far fetched to believe that he would come back with a child from some paramour 9 months before. It made him look bad, yes, but it also was keeping his sisters secret.

[COYStars]

Whilst this particular topic has been discussed to death, there's something that I've always wanted to point out: The Kingsguard go where the King and the Royal Family tell the to go. The fact that Arthur and the others were at the Tower of Joy is often cited as "proof" that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (and thus their child was a true Targaryen), it's not.

It wasn't an order, though, it was a vow.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now maybe the vow was to follow orders, and this was an order from Rhaegar that they were honour-bound to follow. But it feels like more than that to me. Everyone knows the primary vow of the Kingsguard - to protect the King with your life.

So not proof. But strong evidence. Put that with the promise that Ned gave to Lyanna... anyway, as you say, discussed to death.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

It wasn't an order, though, it was a vow.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now maybe the vow was to follow orders, and this was an order from Rhaegar that they were honour-bound to follow. But it feels like more than that to me. Everyone knows the primary vow of the Kingsguard - to protect the King with your life.

So not proof. But strong evidence. Put that with the promise that Ned gave to Lyanna... anyway, as you say, discussed to death.

The vow there seems to me to be the vows of the Kingsguard. We don't actually know the specifics of the Kingsguard Vows, as far as I know, as we do with the Night's Watch vows.

"The Kingsguard does not flee."

"We (the Kingsguard, not us three) swore a vow."

That's how I read it, anyway. I could obviously be wrong.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Whilst this particular topic has been discussed to death, there's something that I've always wanted to point out: The Kingsguard go where the King and the Royal Family tell the to go. The fact that Arthur and the others were at the Tower of Joy is often cited as "proof" that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (and thus their child was a true Targaryen), it's not.

Anyway, with this in mind:

They were simply following Rhaegar's orders, exactly as they were supposed to, honour-bound to even.

This issue currently is a subject of debate in the pinned RLJ thread. I will summarize my thoughts here (I have gone into greater detail in that thread) regarding why I disagree with your position. While orders from Rhaegar might explain why the KG are at ToJ while Rhaegar and Aerys are alive (and Aerys has at least one KG -- Jaime -- guarding the king), it does not explain why they remained at ToJ after the death of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon (with Viserys having gone to DS). Read the end of the conversation again more closely:

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Based on this exchange, The KG say they do not flee. How is it fleeing to go to DS where the new king resides? In what sense can that be fleeing? Moreover, they say that they did not go to DS because the "swore a vow." They point out that Darry is not a KG, so Viserys has no KG guarding him. The KG would not use a vow to obey the orders of a dead crown prince as justification for not following their primary vow -- to protect the king (and yes, we know this part of their vow is considered to be their primary vow). The reference to the vow only makes sense if going to DS would be a breach of their primary vow -- to protect the king -- i.e., Jon.

Further, if Rhaegar and Lyanna were not married, then Jon is not a threat to Robert. The KG guard Jon from Ned because, as a leader of the rebellion, Ned would have an obligation to turn over the heir to the Targ throne. But if Jon is just a Targ bastard, then Ned has no such obligation, and as Jon's uncle, would not be seen as a threat to Jon. Ned is a threat to his nephew only if Ned's nephew is a threat to the rebellion. And Jon is a threat to the rebellion only if Jon is the rightful Targ king -- i.e., if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. So even if the KG are just following Rhaegar's last orders, those orders would not seem to include defending Jon from his uncle unless Jon somehow could be viewed as a threat to Ned and the rebellion -- which really is only the case if Jon is heir to the Targ throne.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

"Robert's warhammer disagreed" made me giggle.

So, if I remember well Martin said the Howland Reed will be in the next book, so maybe we will know these things from him.

But me too was thinking about these. I think too that there had to be a nurse, so maybe Rhaegar sent a lady-in-waiting from King's Landing or someone from Dragonstone or something like that, I can even imagine that she was Lemore, and after the fight Ned let her live so she fled to Essos.

The Kingsguard noticed Aerys' madness too for sure, coz they weren't stupid, and maybe they didn't like him, but also didn't want to play "Criston Cole 2.0" and crown Rhaegar, coz they told to be the greatest Kingsguard ever (well, before Jaime joined). So they decided to act as the king and his heir says, so Rhaegar ordered them to go to the Tower of Joy and thus Aerys will still have 4 of them in King's Landing, so it's not a problem. And then Rhaegar took them to fight or Aerys ordered them to go with Rhaegar to be sure that he won't ally with the rebels against him. Yes, it wouldn't make any sense, but Aerys was mad, so it makes sense. And for Jaime staying in KL, well, there's a phrase like "Keep your friends close,but your enemies closer" or something like that.

After the fight Ned visited Starfall to give them back Arthur's sword, and there were Ashara and probably Wylla, so they could think that Jon is the son of one of them.

[Ygrain]

1. Women can give birth on their own, but it is quite safe to presume that there were other people present than just the KG - they found Ned holding Lyanna's body, after all.

2. There are seven KG, so that some of them may carry out other duties while the others protect the king. Dayne and Whent were Rhaegar's assigned bodyguards, travelled everywhere with him and it was within his rights to issue commands to them.

Hightower was later sent to find Rhaegar. The details of the arrangement are not known but since there were still four other KG (Martell, Selmy, Darry and Jaime) to protect the king, Rhaegar either simply ordered him to stay at ToJ, or perhaps used a little coercion (e.g. made Hightower's staying a condition for his own return to KL).

Jaime's loyalty had never been doubted until he actually did the deed, and by staying with Aerys, the collective KG duty to guard the king was fulfilled while the remaining KG could go with Rhaegar who needed them more than Aerys at that moment.

3. There are hundreds of miles between SE, ToJ and Starfall, and it is never said that Ned must have travelled along with baby Jon. Also, he definitely didn't broadcast that he had a "bastard", so the first time that the majority of Westeros heard of Jon, he was at Winterfell already. Lord Stark having up in the North a bastard whom he sired during the war is rather uninteresting news and no-one knows the exact when or where.

[Ygrain]

You've got there multiple posting of the same thread. I'm re-posting my reply and reporting the other threads to be locked.

1. Women can give birth on their own, but it is quite safe to presume that there were other people present than just the KG - they found Ned holding Lyanna's body, after all.

2. There are seven KG, so that some of them may carry out other duties while the others protect the king. Dayne and Whent were Rhaegar's assigned bodyguards, travelled everywhere with him and it was within his rights to issue commands to them.

Hightower was later sent to find Rhaegar. The details of the arrangement are not known but since there were still four other KG (Martell, Selmy, Darry and Jaime) to protect the king, Rhaegar either simply ordered him to stay at ToJ, or perhaps used a little coercion (e.g. made Hightower's staying a condition for his own return to KL).

Jaime's loyalty had never been doubted until he actually did the deed, and by staying with Aerys, the collective KG duty to guard the king was fulfilled while the remaining KG could go with Rhaegar who needed them more than Aerys at that moment.

3. There are hundreds of miles between SE, ToJ and Starfall, and it is never said that Ned must have travelled along with baby Jon. Also, he definitely didn't broadcast that he had a "bastard", so the first time that the majority of Westeros heard of Jon, he was at Winterfell already. Lord Stark having up in the North a bastard whom he sired during the war is rather uninteresting news and no-one knows the exact when or where.

[phbahia]

Hey sorry I posted this three times, it was an accident.

[joluoto2]

We don't know what happened at the Tower of Joy and we may never know. What we do know is that only Ned and Howland Reed survived the fight.

I have always taken it for granted that the the three Kingsguard members did not know much of the war. The tower was apparently well hidden (it took the KG members weeks to find Rhaegar when they were sent to get him, because no one really knew where the tower was). So one can assyme news would reach the tower slowly if at all. Much of what Ned tell the KG is probably news for them, but they of course act professionally, perhaps choosing to go down with the dynasty they had failed to protect.

[LogicalLeopard]

First: How did Lyanna manage to have the baby on her own? I mean unless Arthur Dayne or the other kingsguards were actually midwifes they couldn't have been much help.

Ha! "Three Kingsguard And a Baby!" Starring Ted Samson as Gerold Hightower, Steve Gutenberg as Arthur Rayne, and...who else was in that movie?

I'm thinking that maybe that's how Lyanna died. Maybe she DID have to push the baby out on her own. Or maybe the baby was early, her ladies I'm waiting or servants went to the newest town to fetch a midwife, and by the time they get back, the battle is over and Lyanna is dead.

Not likely though. She probably had a servant who is sworn to secrecy somewhere. But she could have died because there were no maester or midwives present.

[UnmaskedLurker]

We don't know what happened at the Tower of Joy and we may never know. What we do know is that only Ned and Howland Reed survived the fight.

I have always taken it for granted that the the three Kingsguard members did not know much of the war. The tower was apparently well hidden (it took the KG members weeks to find Rhaegar when they were sent to get him, because no one really knew where the tower was). So one can assyme news would reach the tower slowly if at all. Much of what Ned tell the KG is probably news for them, but they of course act professionally, perhaps choosing to go down with the dynasty they had failed to protect.

I think we would expect that the KG had some source of information from the outside world (best theory I read is that Starfall is the source). Ned lifts the seize in stormlands before heading to ToJ. The time it would have taken Ned likely is enough time for the big news of the death of Aerys and Aegon to reach Starfall and then get to ToJ. So while we don't know for sure, I suspect they knew about these events before Ned arrives.

As to choosing to go down rather than fight -- if the "true" king is on DS, and Ned invites them free passage to leave for DS rather than fight (as he seems to do), I don't think they forsake their primary duty to defend the king (under these set of facts, Viserys) in order to "go down with the dynasty." The KG would be betraying their vows -- not as Hightower asserts, fulfilling their vows -- if the facts were as you described.

[joluoto2]

I think we would expect that the KG had some source of information from the outside world (best theory I read is that Starfall is the source). Ned lifts the seize in stormlands before heading to ToJ. The time it would have taken Ned likely is enough time for the big news of the death of Aerys and Aegon to reach Starfall and then get to ToJ. So while we don't know for sure, I suspect they knew about these events before Ned arrives.

As to choosing to go down rather than fight -- if the "true" king is on DS, and Ned invites them free passage to leave for DS rather than fight (as he seems to do), I don't think they forsake their primary duty to defend the king (under these set of facts, Viserys) in order to "go down with the dynasty." The KG would be betraying their vows -- not as Hightower asserts, fulfilling their vows -- if the facts were as you described.

Ned never offered them free passage.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

It's very simple:

Rhaegar and Lyanna were married making her a Targaryen Princess and Jon in the line of succession.

The King's Guard stayed at the Tower to guard Princess Lyanna and her (then) unborn child, at the time Rhaegar had three King's Guard with him at the Trident and Aerys had Jaime and the thousands of soldiers and Gold Cloaks.

There were other people at the Tower besides Lyanna and the three King's Guard, but we do not not who or how many.

After Lyanna died in Ned's arms the book says "They found him", meaning Howland reed and others....

Rhaegar did want to take the Throne from his father, but he did not want King's Landing to fall (his two children are there) or for the Rebels to win (that would surely would mean his death as well. No one for saw Tywin turning on the Crown, let alone sacking the Capitol and killing the Royal Family. Jaime stayed because it was thought that him beside the King would ensure Tywin's loyalty, plus King's Guards at the time took the vow very serious and it was unlikely that Aerys would be in danger from one of his King's Guard.

After Ned left Storm's end and he went to the Tower, he went to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes, he then went back North. He did not return to King's Landing as he was still upset with Robert's handling of the Targaryen children. This is not modern times, where people had phones and travel was quick. It might years before anyone that Ned saw at Storm's End saw him again.

If he showed up in Winterfell with a baby and a story, who would argue with him, let alone have any kind of proof that he was where he said he was?

[joluoto2]

Rhaegar was already married. But yes, technically he can marry Lyanna, and setting Elia aside, since he is a Prince, and the Martells aren't strong enough to do much about it (except vipers and scorpions in their bed).