The Tower of Joy- What exactly happened?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Nobody asked how Eddard was able to find Lyanna's location .Who told Ned that Rhaegar called it the Tower of Joy ? Why wasn't Hightower at Aerys' side ? What would have happen if Rhaegar had met Eddard at the Trident ?

I'm guessing that Ser Richard Lonmouth, former squire to Rhaegar, survived the Trident and let Ned know.

[COYStars]

This issue currently is a subject of debate in the pinned RLJ thread. I will summarize my thoughts here (I have gone into greater detail in that thread) regarding why I disagree with your position. While orders from Rhaegar might explain why the KG are at ToJ while Rhaegar and Aerys are alive (and Aerys has at least one KG -- Jaime -- guarding the king), it does not explain why they remained at ToJ after the death of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon (with Viserys having gone to DS). Read the end of the conversation again more closely:

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Based on this exchange, The KG say they do not flee. How is it fleeing to go to DS where the new king resides? In what sense can that be fleeing? Moreover, they say that they did not go to DS because the "swore a vow." They point out that Darry is not a KG, so Viserys has no KG guarding him. The KG would not use a vow to obey the orders of a dead crown prince as justification for not following their primary vow -- to protect the king (and yes, we know this part of their vow is considered to be their primary vow). The reference to the vow only makes sense if going to DS would be a breach of their primary vow -- to protect the king -- i.e., Jon.

Further, if Rhaegar and Lyanna were not married, then Jon is not a threat to Robert. The KG guard Jon from Ned because, as a leader of the rebellion, Ned would have an obligation to turn over the heir to the Targ throne. But if Jon is just a Targ bastard, then Ned has no such obligation, and as Jon's uncle, would not be seen as a threat to Jon. Ned is a threat to his nephew only if Ned's nephew is a threat to the rebellion. And Jon is a threat to the rebellion only if Jon is the rightful Targ king -- i.e., if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. So even if the KG are just following Rhaegar's last orders, those orders would not seem to include defending Jon from his uncle unless Jon somehow could be viewed as a threat to Ned and the rebellion -- which really is only the case if Jon is heir to the Targ throne.

Good post. Yes, this is how I see it.

It's pretty clear from the dialogue that the KG know what's going on in the outside world and their vow still bites. The notion that the lion's share of the KG, with the King undefended, would still be following an old order from a now deceased member of the royal family to protect someone who isn't a member of the royal family... it makes no sense. These are senior knights, they would use their brains and reassess the situation, especially if the order is banal. Besides, why does it take three of them to protect Lyanna if she's just Lyanna Stark (with no child in tow) and why would they protect her against the brother who loves her? Especially given that she's close to death in the first place - that's not something to give your lives up for, or take five other lives for.

I guess there are other theories. Could it have been switched Aegon that they were protecting, with Lyanna making Ned promise that he deliver Aegon to Varys? Lots of theories possible. But considering that Ned, in his delusions, seems to connect his promise to Jon, and the fact that he (the most honourable man on the planet) is supposed to have fathered a child out of wedlock.... R+L=J seems the most likely scenario.

[kevrob]

What happened in the Tower of Joy? Well, see, when a crown prince loves the betrothed daughter of one of his father's lords very much....

...and 9 months later, a beautiful baby bastard is born. Then lots of people die, and the prince gets killed, and the mom dies, and the bastard grows up to be Batman.

Or Jon Snow.

Usually Batman, though.

[239JMFL34109]

tower joy was thunder dome but only two men could leave.

[kevrob]

tower joy was thunder dome but only two men could leave.

Two Men and A Baby.

A screenplay was born that day.

[joluoto2]

I'm guessing that Ser Richard Lonmouth, former squire to Rhaegar, survived the Trident and let Ned know.

But would ser Lonmouth know? Wasn't he already a former squire during the war? We don't know who was eith Rhaegar at the ToJ, and who followed him to war, but logic would dictate he had a squire, and the squire followed him to war, probably along with a small retinue (and since ser Lonmouth was a former squire and good friend of Rhaegar, it's not impossible he might have been a part of said retinue, but the fact is, we don't really know).

We do know Another of Rhaegar's former squires ser Myles Mooton was not in Rhaegar's inner circle, considering we know he was in the loyalist armies from the beginning of the war, and slain in the Battle of the Bells.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Ethan Glover is being speculated to have been in the know, too.

Ashara Dayne roaming the battlefields is search of surviving Starks to tell news from L+R is another theory.

I prefer Ned to head straight to Summerhall and asking the smallfolk whence and where Rhaegar has been seen travelling over the past 12 months and making towards Dorne from there, where he learns of three "rogue" kingsguard roaming about and follows their "hoofprints" home to the Tower of Joy.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Why were Stark's six men but shadows while the faces of the three Kingsguard men "burned clear?"

[stateofdissipation]

We all know the main things that took place: There was a showdown in which three kingsguard members and five northmen died, Ned and Howland Reed went inside and found Lyanna dying with baby Jon with her. Ned promised Lyanna to tell people the baby was his and she died. Pretty straight forward right? Maybe not?

First: How did Lyanna manage to have the baby on her own? I mean unless Arthur Dayne or the other kingsguards were actually midwifes they couldn't have been much help.

Second: The kingsguard are supposed to protect the king, so why the hell did they ride to Dorne with Rhaegar to guard his lover and a tower no one knew existed and just leave the king in King's Landing? Ser Gerold was Lord Commander and a very honorable man, so why did he leave the king? Did Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell plan to crown Rhaegar after the rebellion or something? Besides when Rhaegar leaves for the Trident he takes the remaining Kingsguard with him, leaving the king only with Jaime, the son of a guy you should not really trust, and Aerys did not trust at all? The only thing that makes sense is that Rhaegar wanted his father to die and he would become king, well Robert's warhammer disagreed.

Third: Ned had just left Storm's End to go find his sister, and all of the sudden he comes back with a baby and everyone believes it is his? Was the baby generated and born in a week?

I know it sound like nitpicking, but these things annoy me a bit.

Ned and Howland Reed went went inside

The time between the showdown and Lyanna's death is a blank... Ned never finds Lyanna. Showdown--Blankspot--Ned with Lyanna in a room that smelled of blood and roses.

and found Lyanna dying with baby Jon with her.

Still no finding and no baby.

We do have the synecdoche-- Bed of blood-- a part of childbirth used to represent the whole.

Now we have Ned with Lyanna in childbirth.

Ned promised Lyanna to tell people the baby was his and she died. Pretty straight forward right? Maybe not?

Ned made unnamed promises or a single promise.

First: How did Lyanna manage to have the baby on her own? I mean unless Arthur Dayne or the other kingsguards were actually midwifes they couldn't have been much help.

Good question if we put the kingsguard with Lyanna during birth--- instead of Ned.

RLJ loves to make the kingsguard deliver Lyanna's baby. This is because Ned's arrival at the tower was some time after the time GRRM gave for Jon's birth. RLJ has gone a long way to have Lyanna's baby born at the same time as Jon. Including asserting that Lyanna in her bed of blood means a month or more after childbirth.

Second: The kingsguard are supposed to protect the king, so why the hell did they ride to Dorne with Rhaegar to guard his lover and a tower no one knew existed and just leave the king in King's Landing?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm

Ser Gerold was Lord Commander and a very honorable man,

If you do not understand sarcasm. Jamie gives the account of Gerold being a better man based on Gerold not judging Aerys for burning Rickard....

Non ironic statements have him as ferocious and known for his great strength.

Did Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell plan to crown Rhaegar after the rebellion or something?

Nothing to back that up.

Besides when Rhaegar leaves for the Trident he takes the remaining Kingsguard with him, leaving the king only with Jaime, the son of a guy you should not really trust, and Aerys did not trust at all?

Jamie was Aerys's protection against Tywin. Rhaegar and the other kingsguard were protection against Robert.

The only thing that makes sense is that Rhaegar wanted his father to die and he would become king, well Robert's warhammer disagreed.

Rhaegar planned on returning....

Third: Ned had just left Storm's End to go find his sister, and all of the sudden he comes back with a baby and everyone believes it is his? Was the baby generated and born in a week?

Ned was gone for a year after his marriage according to Cat. Ned returned with Jon who was of an age with Robb. There is no problem with producing a baby of that age during that time.

There was not an all of the sudden return... and no mention of Ned coming with a baby...

We have Cat coming to Winterfell. When she arrived, Jon was already there with his unnamed wet nurse.

I know it sound like nitpicking, but these things annoy me a bit.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I think we need to know WHAT was Tower of Joy. What was the purpose od Tower of Joy? Was it watchtower or ruined tower or lone building or soemthing else.

What was purpose of TOJ? Was it to hide Rhaegar or mark some duel or to guard pass or to hide Lyanna or was it place where Rhaegar singed like he did in Summerhall?

Then we can discuss othe possibilities.

Also, did GRRM tell Ned and Howland were only people who left TOJ or H&N were only men to leave TOJ.

[Rippounet]

There's a good thread "Eddard in Wonderland" IIRC that explains why his fever dream is likely more symbolic than anything else. And Martin himself said that dream should be taken with a bit of salt.

So... We don't know what really happened at the ToJ. That Ned talked with the three Kingsguard is a certainty, but the actual content of the discussion remains unknown.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

There's a good thread "Eddard in Wonderland" IIRC that explains why his fever dream is likely more symbolic than anything else. And Martin himself said that dream should be taken with a bit of salt.

So... We don't know what really happened at the ToJ. That Ned talked with the three Kingsguard is a certainty, but the actual content of the discussion remains unknown.

It says he dreamed an old dream, this is something he has dreamed of over and over again.

Now true, some of the items were fever induced (like the rose petals across the sky and Lyanna screaming his name was actually his man trying to wake him) but for the most part what he dreamt was likely the jist of what actually happened.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

It says he dreamed an old dream, this is something he has dreamed of over and over again.

Now true, some of the items were fever induced (like the rose petals across the sky and Lyanna screaming his name was actually his man trying to wake him) but for the most part what he dreamt was likely the jist of what actually happened.

Hmmm? Many people have recurring dreams that aren't accurate.

[Rippounet]

It says he dreamed an old dream, this is something he has dreamed of over and over again.

Now true, some of the items were fever induced (like the rose petals across the sky and Lyanna screaming his name was actually his man trying to wake him) but for the most part what he dreamt was likely the jist of what actually happened.

I say it's highly unlikely the conversation was anything like that. Ned was looking for his sister, but in the conversation we have he doesn't mention her a single time. If he had just arrived at the tower (which seems to be the case, since the dream starts as he's riding) he would start by making sure she's there. This alone should be enough to show that the dream is unreliable.

Even if Ned wanted to know why the Kingsguard were there, the conversation would look slightly different. It's unlikely the Kingsguard would take turns talking, or that Ned would repeat that he looked for them elsewhere. Again, the conversation seems unreliable. If Ned is informing the Kingsguard then they should be the ones asking the questions. If/Once the Kingsguard know about what has happened they should be talking about what the Kingsguard intend to do now that all the Targs are dead or fleeing (with Ned asking straightforward questions). And obviously, at some point Ned should be asking them about Lyanna.

The jist of the conversation seems to be Ned telling them everything that happened and asking "What were/are you doing here?" and the Kingsguard giving enigmatic answers. The way I see it this is a riddle for the reader: "Why were they there?" We're meant to understand they are guarding Lyanna and her baby. Is there something else? Maybe. I won't go there.

At any rate, the dream seems more about Ned trying to figure out why the kingsguard were there and why they had to fight. It's perfectly reasonable to think the kingsguard did say some of those things, but some sentences don't make sense, and obviously some are missing as well.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

- Why reply "far away" ? Obviously the answer was "We were here." [or: "we were at Starfall"]

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

- Technically, Dayne isn't really answering Ned's sentence here. His answer would make more sense if Ned had just told him "All the loyalists have bent the knee to Robert. If you do, we don't have to fight."

The same thing may be said when they talk of Darry.

“The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

- Again, their answers would make more sense if Ned had suggested they flee to Dragonstone to join Darry and Viserys. Offering them a way out seems like the sort of thing Ned would do. And Ned's "sadness in his voice" seems to imply he doesn't want to fight, wich makes sense. If he did want to kill them (because they are too dangerous to leave alive), then he wouldn't take the time to have this lengthy conversation without even mentioning Lyanna.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Ice and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

- This is the hardest to understand. What begins and what ends exactly? It's possible they did have this exchange, but "Let's begin this fight" makes more sense.

Generally speaking, as has often been pointed out, it makes more sense for Ned to see Lyanna (and her baby) before fighting the Kingsguard. Possibly even to fight them because of the promises he just made her (probably to take the child North and raise him as his son, among other things). Ned isn't exactly the bloodthirsty type and he wouldn't fight when he knows he's won the war. The only reason he would fight is to get Lyanna, or for the baby she's just had. The exchange would then take place once everyone would have valid reasons to fight.

So to sum up: parts of the exchange seem genuine. And, after all, it's all we have. But this isn't a memory, so we don't know what happened exactly, which is the only answer to the OP. And to quote Martin:

Our dreams are not always literal.

[stateofdissipation]

It says he dreamed an old dream, this is something he has dreamed of over and over again.

Now true, some of the items were fever induced (like the rose petals across the sky and Lyanna screaming his name was actually his man trying to wake him) but for the most part what he dreamt was likely the jist of what actually happened.

It says he dreamed an old dream, this is something he has dreamed of over and over again.

He dreamed a "recurring" dream would be over and over again.

He dreamed an old dream, this is something he dreamed a long time ago.

Now true, some of the items were fever induced (like the rose petals across the sky and Lyanna screaming his name was actually his man trying to wake him) but for the most part what he dreamt was likely the jist of what actually happened.

??? fever induced??? are you quoting the SSM that warns "Our dreams are not always literal, you know"---

You must be.... because there is no fever mentioned in aGoT Eddard X....

So you invoked a warning that a dream is not always literal... to point out "a part of the dream is not literal." and assert; other than that the dream is literal.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

It says he dreamed an old dream, this is something he has dreamed of over and over again.

He dreamed a "recurring" dream would be over and over again.

He dreamed an old dream, this is something he dreamed a long time ago.

Now true, some of the items were fever induced (like the rose petals across the sky and Lyanna screaming his name was actually his man trying to wake him) but for the most part what he dreamt was likely the jist of what actually happened.

??? fever induced??? are you quoting the SSM that warns "Our dreams are not always literal, you know"---

You must be.... because there is no fever mentioned in aGoT Eddard X....

So you invoked a warning that a dream is not always literal... to point out "a part of the dream is not literal." and assert; other than that the dream is literal.

Ned had this dream after he fell off of his horse and broke his leg and slept for a number of days. The fever is implied, other wise why would he be in such a state?

So you are implying this was a dream he had once and then not again until this moment?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Generally speaking, as has often been pointed out, it makes more sense for Ned to see Lyanna (and her baby) before fighting the Kingsguard. Possibly even to fight them because of the promises he just made her (probably to take the child North and raise him as his son, among other things). Ned isn't exactly the bloodthirsty type and he wouldn't fight when he knows he's won the war. The only reason he would fight is to get Lyanna, or for the baby she's just had. The exchange would then take place once everyone would have valid reasons to fight.

It makes no sense for the King's Guard to let Ned anywhere near Lyanna and the rightful heir of the Kingdom.

Even if they know that Ned is super honorable and that he is her brother and that there is no way he would kill her. They would have to assume that he would demand her and the baby and that he would tell Robert about the baby.

This the same King Robert that condoned the killing of the baby's step-brother and sister in King's Landing just a month ago.

They would be the worst King's Guard in history to let Ned even know about that child let alone in the same building as it.

[stateofdissipation]

Ned had this dream after he fell off of his horse and broke his leg and slept for a number of days. The fever is implied, other wise why would he be in such a state?

So you are implying this was a dream he had once and then not again until this moment?

Ned had this dream after he fell off of his horse and broke his leg and slept for a number of days. The fever is implied, other wise why would he be in such a state?

Do you have a line for the implied fever?

The text has Ned's head as "heavy with milk of the poppy:"--aGoT page 412

So you are implying this was a dream he had once and then not again until this moment?

I am not implying anything....

He dreamt an old dream of...---aGoT page 409

Old does not equal recurring...

He did not think it omened well that he should have that dream again after so many years.--aGoT page 412..

Old means from many years ago....

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Believe it or not, women do not usually need a midwife or doctor or anybody to help them have children. The process has been going on for millions of years on it's own without outside help.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Old does not equal recurring...

Old means from many years ago....

One of the definitions for the word old:

possessed or used for a long time