Houses Flint and Locke.

[manuco]

Hello, i just wanted to ask something about Houses Flint. I don't understand, the Flints of Widow's Watch are bannermen of House Manderly (I'm not sure). And what about House Flint of Flint's Finger ? Their lands are far from White Harbour. Or maybe I'm making a mistake and that the Flints of Widow's Watch are not bannermen of House Manderly but a House of the same rank (like House Manderly, Umber, Bolton) and not a lesser house (like House Forrester, House Whitehill and House Woolfield).

And what about the Lockes, are they bannermen of House Manderly ?

Please answer me and thank you in advance ! :)

[Fat Mac]

They are Lords on the same level as Bolton, Karstark, Hornwood, Umber etc., and I believe their most direct allegiance is that to House Stark.

Both houses are old, and used to be kings in their own right iirc. I don't believe either are vassals to the Manderlys.

[Darkbringer]

Flints are a funny one. They are stretched all over the North and its not clear if they are actually related. If they are, and are working in concert it could mean a great deal for the GNC.

[Brlackenwood]

I think that all the Flints descend from the North Clans Mountains. There are the Flints of Breakstone Hill who claim to be the First Flints (they are the ones who still rule in the high mountains in the farest north), and Flints of Flint's Finger and Flints of Widow's Watch are their cadet branches.

And yes, Lockes are bannerman of House Manderly.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I think that all the Flints descend from the North Clans Mountains. There are the Flints of Breakstone Hill who claim to be the First Flints (they are the ones who still rule in the high mountains in the farest north), and Flints of Flint's Finger and Flints of Widow's Watch are their cadet branches.

And yes, Lockes are bannerman of House Manderly.

As I recall Hosue Locke is not a bannerman to House Manderly. They have own and separate lands, and they are bannermen only to the Starks (currently Boltons) as any other Northern House.

Someone made a map after TWOIAF was published, so something like that: http://imgur.com/a/uKb48

[Brlackenwood]

As I recall Hosue Locke is not a bannerman to House Manderly. They have own and separate lands, and they are bannermen only to the Starks (currently Boltons) as any other Northern House.

Someone made a map after TWOIAF was published, so something like that: http://imgur.com/a/uKb48

I see, my mistake then. I thought their allegiance lies to the Manderlys and not directly to the Wardens, due to proximity of Oldcastle and White Harbor.

Thanks for the map by the way.

[manuco]

Thank you, it's clear now :)

[The King in The Mount]

Can a House like Manderly have bannermen? Isn't that a Lord Paramount thing only?
On the wiki, at the bottom of the page there is a "Houses from the North" table. Both Flints and Manderly are on the same category of "Noble Houses"

(Damn, it took me a while to write this and didn't see all those previous replies)

[Nyrhex]

They are not sworn to Manderly, but he is confidant that they would follow his lead, mainly due to sahred interests and the fact that he is by far the stronger of the three. Probably more so than the other two combined.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

AFAIR they are both noble houses same with Karstarks, Umbers, Mormont, Reed and Manderly and not their vassals.

[The Witch King of Asshai]

House Locke is a noble house that does direct fealty to Winterfell, but their location and links to the Manderly's mean they will follow their lead and are heavily influenced by them, as the less powerful neighbours of a hugely powerful house. I assume the Flints of Widows Watch are in a similar position, given their size and location. So, not direct vassals, although Manderly has those in abundance. According to the Wiki, House Woolfield is another house they influence, and castles like Ramsgate are their direct vassals.

Their relationship is probably similar to that of the Boltons and Ryswells currently, but older.

IIRC all the Flints are related, there were four branches but the Starks wiped one out and subjugated the rest. Other than the name, I don't think the Flints of Flints Finger are that closely linked with their counterparts.

[Nittanian]

IIRC all the Flints are related, there were four branches but the Starks wiped one out and subjugated the rest. Other than the name, I don't think the Flints of Flints Finger are that closely linked with their counterparts.

We definitely know of three branches - First Flints (mountain clan), Widow's Watch, and Flint's Finger. TWOIAF mentions the Flints of Breakstone Hill being conquered by the Kings of Winter. It's unclear if the Breakstone Flints are extinct or are actually the First Flints of the mountains.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Flints of Widow's Watch are hinted to be the most powerful of the current Flints. Not necessarily the oldest though. That honor likely belongs to the Mountain Flints.

The Widows Watch Flints appear to be a powerful House in their own right, and could rule all the lands of their semi peninsula in addition to being an important Narrow Sea port, not too far from Braavos.

They are likely on a Karstark level of strength, in my view, (around 3000 men) whereas the Lockes are probably somewhat lower in the 1500-2000 region.

Both these Houses are sworn directly to Winterfell, but the Lockes seem to be particularly prone to White Harbor's influence nevertheless.

[The Holy Goat]

All three branches of the Flints, as well as the Lockes are their own mayor houses, sworn directly to the Starks. They are on the same feudal level as Manderly and Bolton, but not as powerful. Manderly influences the Lockes and Flints of Widow's Watch, but he doesn't rule over them and they may take a different course should they wish to.

@Free Northman Reborn. I find it unlikely that the Flints and Lockes can gather that many people. I reckon the Starks, Boltons, Manderlys, Karstarks and Umbers are the only nothern houses capable of gathering more than 2,000 men on their own. The rest are likely around 1,000-1,500. Afterall, there are MANY smaller houses in the North.

[The Witch King of Asshai]

@Holy Goat: I think estimates on the forum put Bolton strength at around 5,000, and Manderly as double that at a minimum, with the Norths overall strength being over 50,000 (I think, could be wrong). That means the likes of House Locke, by Northern standards a relatively powerful house, should be able to gather at least 2,000 men and I'm guessing the Flints of Widows Watch are the same. There has to be more than 5 houses that can raise over 2,000 men, although those 5 certainly can. Dustin most likely, and probably Ryswell, Cerwyn etc. Most of those smaller houses in the North, like Stout and Forrester, are sworn to larger houses like Dustin and Glover.

I think the vastness and low population density of the north means it will take the Starks much longer to raise 30k-40k men than the Lannisters or Tyrells, but they can given time.

[WhitewolfStark]

Can a House like Manderly have bannermen? Isn't that a Lord Paramount thing only?

On the wiki, at the bottom of the page there is a "Houses from the North" table. Both Flints and Manderly are on the same category of "Noble Houses"

(Damn, it took me a while to write this and didn't see all those previous replies)

This is why GRRM's biggest regret (he said this in an SSM) is my biggest pet peeve about this book series. There's no title distinctions, everyone is just "lord".

Comparing to Medieval England:

King --------------- King of Westeros

Duke -------------- Lord Paramount

Marquess--------- Noble Lord

Earl----------------- Noble Lord

Viscount ---------- Noble Lord

Baron -------------- Noble Lord

Landed Knight -- Knightly House/Masterly House

Landed Gentry -- Other Houses

Knight sans Land - Other Houses

So filling in using the North at the beginning of AGOT:

King of Westeros: Robert Baratheon

Lord Paramount of the North: Eddard Stark

(Noble) Lord of Winterfell: Eddard Stark

Masterly House of Deepwood Motte: Galbart Glover

(Non-Noble) House sworn to Deepwood Motte: Gregor Forrester of Ironrath

(Non-Noble) House sworn to Ironrath: Duncan Tuttle (the Tuttles have a last name, which is uncommon... very uncommon amongst actual smallfolk)

Another, showing that the Lord of Winterfell also has non-noble houses sworn to him:

King of Westeros: Robert Baratheon

Lord Paramount of the North: Eddard Stark

(Noble) Lord of Winterfell: Eddard Stark

(Non-Noble) House sworn to Winterfell: Jory Cassel

Also, as revealed from the Telltale game:

King of Westeros: Robert Baratheon

Lord Paramount of the North: Eddard Stark

(Noble) Lord of the Rills: Rodrik Ryswell

(Non-Noble) House sworn to the Rills: House Glenmore

So a house like House Manderly should have some Masterly/Knightly Houses and Non-Noble Houses sworn to them directly. And the Masterly/Knightly Houses should also have Non-Noble Houses sworn to them if they're powerful enough (like the Glovers do).

And this is the issue in the books: although we're given a lot of names, in all probability we're only given a small percentage of the number of house names likely in existence. If anything we're likely given the ones most important to the story and nothing more. It also has a large effect of really making Westeros seem much smaller than it should be.

*Noble simply means that they have king's blood/royal blood in them traditionally, either their family were once kings themselves, or were cadet branches of kings.

[Free Northman Reborn]

All three branches of the Flints, as well as the Lockes are their own mayor houses, sworn directly to the Starks. They are on the same feudal level as Manderly and Bolton, but not as powerful. Manderly influences the Lockes and Flints of Widow's Watch, but he doesn't rule over them and they may take a different course should they wish to.

@Free Northman Reborn. I find it unlikely that the Flints and Lockes can gather that many people. I reckon the Starks, Boltons, Manderlys, Karstarks and Umbers are the only nothern houses capable of gathering more than 2,000 men on their own. The rest are likely around 1,000-1,500. Afterall, there are MANY smaller houses in the North.

The weakest of the Northern bannerhouses can raise more men than the entire Watch. Meaning more than 1000 men. (Note that this absolute minimum could just as well be 1500 as 1100. All we know is that it is more than 1000. But that is neither here nor there). So with Bolton at 5000, Manderly at as much as 6000 - 8000, and the weakest at "more than 1000", there is no reason why the rest should not occuppy a wide range of levels between the upper and lower limits.

The southeast is generally warmer and more fertile than other regions in the North, and Widow's Watch occuppies a very well placed and sizeable peninsula.

I would place the Flints of Widow's Watch as an above average Northern House, with the average House sitting at around 2000.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The weakest of the Northern bannerhouses can raise more men than the entire Watch. Meaning more than 1000 men. (Note that this absolute minimum could just as well be 1500 as 1100. All we know is that it is more than 1000. But that is neither here nor there). So with Bolton at 5000, Manderly at as much as 6000 - 8000, and the weakest at "more than 1000", there is no reason why the rest should not occuppy a wide range of levels between the upper and lower limits.

The southeast is generally warmer and more fertile than other regions in the North, and Widow's Watch occuppies a very well placed and sizeable peninsula.

I would place the Flints of Widow's Watch as an above average Northern House, with the average sitting at around 2500.

The Watch has less than a thousand. We know this from Ned.

"Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."

We also know that the Lords of the North can all raise more than the Watch.

"Your brother is in the field with all the power of the north behind him. Any one of his lords bannermen commands more swords than you'll find in all the Night's Watch. Why do you imagine that they need your help?

So that would put the lowest Northern Lord on at least over a 1,000. Which is probably higher than the lowest Southern Lords as I cant see Lords like the Westerlings being able to raise that number.

The Karstarks seem to be in the top tier of Northern Houses, though behind the Boltons and Manderlys, and they have supplied just under 3,000 men and have complained in ADWD about not having enough men to bring in that last harvest.

I'm not sure that the Widow Watch would be that populated. It is not as well protected as White Harbor and would have histroically similar problems to the West coast with raiding from the Three Sisters and Stepstone pirates.

[Nittanian]

Here's some info I found from So Spake Martin.

Asshai.com Forum Chat:

The number of titles of medieval nobility multiplied over times, as the feudal system became more complex and the social structure more layered, with various degrees of precedence, etc. In the earlier periods -- say, England around the time of Henry I and William II Rufus -- all those different titles did not exist. I prefered the simplicity of those times. In hindsight, I probably should have added a least one more title to differentiate the great houses from their vassals, but I am glad I stayed clear of using the whole roster of noble stylings.

The Drowned God and More:

I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not there.

[The Holy Goat]

@Holy Goat: I think estimates on the forum put Bolton strength at around 5,000, and Manderly as double that at a minimum, with the Norths overall strength being over 50,000 (I think, could be wrong). That means the likes of House Locke, by Northern standards a relatively powerful house, should be able to gather at least 2,000 men and I'm guessing the Flints of Widows Watch are the same. There has to be more than 5 houses that can raise over 2,000 men, although those 5 certainly can. Dustin most likely, and probably Ryswell, Cerwyn etc. Most of those smaller houses in the North, like Stout and Forrester, are sworn to larger houses like Dustin and Glover.

I think the vastness and low population density of the north means it will take the Starks much longer to raise 30k-40k men than the Lannisters or Tyrells, but they can given time.

Bolton's strenght is around 5,000, that much is true. But I have seen no indivation of House Manderly being able to marshal more than twice that amount. Also, I would put the Norths full strenght closer to 45,000 rather than 50,000, but that's just me nitpicking and making guesses.

Also, you are forgetting that apart from the sixteen major houses in the north (Stark, Bolton, Manderly, Karstark, Umbar, Dustin, Ryswell, Hornwood, Mormont, Cerwyn, Tallhart, Glover, Locke, Flint, and Flint) there are three houses on Skagos, seven different mountain clains, 23 known minor houses, and six different houses sworn to House Reed. The houses of Skagos and the mountains can likely gather several hundred men each, and though the other known houses likely are far weaker they might be able to amass a hundred each. Overall, a lot of men disappear into these minor houses, leaving less for the large notable ones. Granted, these smaller houses are sworn to the notable ones (some to House Reed, some to House Glover, some to Dustin, some to House Manderly etc.), so some may consider them a part of the mayor houses strenght... but I do not and think that the difference should be noted or we could just as well simplify it to the point where we consider 45,000 soldiers of the North to belong to House Stark (making the conflict in the North a clusterfuck of Stark vs. Stark infighting).

And no, as far as I'm concerned Stark, Bolton, Manderly, Karstark and Umber are likely the only houses capable of gathering more than 2,000 on their own. House Dustin, Ryswell and Cerwyn can probably field 1,500 wielding their colors, but I reckon that's about enough. The possibility exist of course: Dustin rules over the settlement of Barrowton, the Ryswell lands are very large, House Cerwyn lies close to the Kingroad.

It takes a long time for the Northmen to gather their forces, that's true. I reckon that at their peak they might be third in strenght, after the Tyrells (100,000) and Lannisters (50,000).

The weakest of the Northern bannerhouses can raise more men than the entire Watch. Meaning more than 1000 men. (Note that this absolute minimum could just as well be 1500 as 1100. All we know is that it is more than 1000. But that is neither here nor there). So with Bolton at 5000, Manderly at as much as 6000 - 8000, and the weakest at "more than 1000", there is no reason why the rest should not occuppy a wide range of levels between the upper and lower limits.

The southeast is generally warmer and more fertile than other regions in the North, and Widow's Watch occuppies a very well placed and sizeable peninsula.

I would place the Flints of Widow's Watch as an above average Northern House, with the average House sitting at around 2000.

We can assume that Jeor Mormont is refering to the sixteen main houses of the North. If he were to suggest that all houses in the North could raise more than 1,000, then 56,000 would the absolute minimum for the North (a rather ridiculous number). If he only refers to the sixteen main houses then 16,000 is the minimum leaving us with greater room for variation. However we must take into account the numbers commanded by the Skagosi, Mountain clans, minor houses of the Neck, and minor houses of the rest of the North. We know the mountain clans can amass at least 3,000 men, and that the Skagosi can gather enough to trouble the Starks. Apart from that we know little.

Also, I find it hard to see where these numbers for House Manderly are coming from. He sent 1,500 men south and rode with 300 to Winterfell. That much we know but nothing else. He has 50 warships yes, but it sailors are not the same as soldiers and does not necessarily have to come form Manderly's own lands. The Lockes and Flints are not Wyman's men. They take their lead from him, yes, but they are not sworn to him. Also, it should be noted that Wyman specifically says he has the most heavy horse, not the most men. And since the proportion of heavy horse ought to be bigger around the richer more Faith influences area around white Harbor, it's fully possible for Wyman to have less men than the Boltons or STarks yet more heavy horse.

Doesn't mean it's a heavily populated though. It's far from the Kingroad and the safety of Winterfell which also boasts relatively fertile lands. Considering the little influence and impact House Flint of Wido's Watch has had in the series I would position it below average for a mayor northern House, perhaps around 1,000-1,500. The same for House Locke and House Flint of Flint's Finger