Is it me, or has the show's general quality diminished?

[Zordrath]

I actually think this is the crux of the issue, the source material has greatly declined in quality since book three. Dorne felt utterly pointless and horribly boring in the books, I'm not surprised that it's not the high point of the show either. They made some improvements (less characters, Jaime and Bronn are more fun than Ser Oakheart), but also got some things wrong (Sand Snakes are not likeable in the least and feel like they're betraying Oberyn's legacy rather than honoring it). In some cases, translating the books directly simply would have made for terrible television, like Tyrion's journey, Brienne's aimless search, Margaery as a cipher without any personality of her own, or cutting half the characters for an entire season. We have to keep in mind that the show had a very difficult job with these later books, whereas I'd argue that translating the excellent and tightly plotted first book into a strong TV series is much easier in comparison (still not easy, but still). I actually really like that they're being more economical with their characters and try to give us more of our old favorites instead of introducing tons of new people that nobody cares about anyway. Giving Jeyne Poole's role to Sansa is a good example of this and actually quite clever in my opinion. And I'm thrilled to see Olenna Tyrell and Jaqen again :D Sure, not everything is perfect (killing Barristan in favor of more Grey Worm? Really?), but then neither are the books.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I actually think this is the crux of the issue, the source material has greatly declined in quality since book three. Dorne felt utterly pointless and horribly boring in the books, I'm not surprised that it's not the high point of the show either. They made some improvements (less characters, Jaime and Bronn are more fun than Ser Oakheart), but also got some things wrong (Sand Snakes are not likeable in the least and feel like they're betraying Oberyn's legacy rather than honoring it). In some cases, translating the books directly simply would have made for terrible television, like Tyrion's journey, Brienne's aimless search, Margaery as a cipher without any personality of her own, or cutting half the characters for an entire season. We have to keep in mind that the show had a very difficult job with these later books, whereas I'd argue that translating the excellent and tightly plotted first book into a strong TV series is much easier in comparison (still not easy, but still). I actually really like that they're being more economical with their characters and try to give us more of our old favorites instead of introducing tons of new people that nobody cares about anyway. Giving Jeyne Poole's role to Sansa is a good example of this and actually quite clever in my opinion. And I'm thrilled to see Olenna Tyrell and Jaqen again :D Sure, not everything is perfect (killing Barristan in favor of more Grey Worm? Really?), but then neither are the books.

Agreed. Though watching Sansa endure more suffering at the hand of a monster is really, really hard to watch, but it does fit the story and economizes characters. What is Jeyne Poole going to do after being rescued, and isn't the whole point of Sansa in the Vale to march on Winterfell anyways? Perhaps in the books, this is Littlefinger's actual plan to march on Winterfell with Vale forces after the battle between the Boltons and Stannis is decided, and if Harry the Heir ends up raping her in the books (which I find at least plausible), then it could be a very streamlined plot.

[Stag_legion]

While I agree that the last two books are slower and less bombastic than the earlier ones, I disagree that they are bad books.

Unlike the show the last two books follow logically from the previous books, after a third books with tons of things happening its only natural that things slow down. Things need to be built up again for a pay off later.

I think the show shouldn't have pandered to general public ADD mentality and should have gone with a more logical if need be slower set up. Drone should have been dropped and only been mentioned by other characters, instead the show should have spend more time with northern politics (there is none in the show) and the fall out of war in riverlands. This would actually make people care about upcoming battle of winterfell and given it better context.

[BitsOfBrains]

I am inclined to agree with the OP that the show quality has drastically declined.

To me it feels like Disney style fight choreography with little nuggets of soft core porn sprinkled here and there VERY selectively.For instance there is a full blown sex scene between Ramsay and Myranda (who is super hot) but the main focus of the Ransa sex scene was how sad it made Theon? Sex scenes without nudity just feel phony, especially on a show that has no problem with nudity.

There has been a bit too much comic relief for my taste and the action scenes have not been on par with previous seasons/what we as an American audience are accustomed to.

I would say that the first season fighting was more, "Braveheart" or "Gladiator" but recently it has been like, "Pirates of the Caribbean" or "Indian Jones".

I know which I prefer.

[Spidersteel]

I think it's a sad day when the last few episodes I didn't even bother watching live, just DVR'd and watched a day or two later. There is indeed a direct correlation between straying too much from the source material and the decrease in how compelling the show is. While I agree that GRRM's last two books were not the best in the series, the writers simply don't have Martin's chops. I WANT the show to continue to be amazing, and I have stopped being an apologist for this season to the people who are losing interest or even entirely abandoning the show. I will stick through to the end, no matter, because I am such a die hard fan of ASOIAF. However I am incredibly nervous about how much worse things may get, considering they will just have a general overview and no source material to anchor the next seasons. I am rooting for the show to get back on track and "pay off". I sincerely hope this season will just be remembered as that one 'not-so-great season'. But my intuition and experience from watching other shows that have been on this course, is sadly that by not listening to TV history, GOT is destined to repeat it and potentially lose it's crowning glory and place in TV history as one of "the greats".

[D-Shiznit]

Unfortunately, they decided to flow GRRM's lead and not accelerate the main plots. Dorne, Boltons, Jorah/Tyrion, Mereen etc are not as interesting at this point in the series lifecycle. The need to ignite the main storylines: Dany's Landing, Walkers, Stark reunion etc. I

[+cassius]

After the ending of this season, it's going to be highly regarded as the best season yet imo

[+cassius]

I disagree. You are just butthurt about Dorne in this week's episode. Almost all the other stuff is still as solid as it ever was, or more so (especially Arya in the House of B&W). It's not like last season had exactly fully stellar storylines: Yara's rescue attempt of Theon comes to mind.. they just can't write rescue plots well.

Looking back after the whole series has aired this will probably be one of the best seasons.

rt

[Lord Godric]

Exactly. The season 2 Qarth stuff was just as laughable and horrible as the Dorne stuff this year.

I've actually enjoyed the Mereen stuff and the Wall stuff so far better in the show than in the books. I'm also really enjoying Jorah and Tyrion's journey much better than Griff/Young Griff w/ Tyrion. That's not to say I wouldn't like to get Faegon, but really the Tyrion travelogue was terrible in the books.

Seriously. Dany's story in season 2 was BAD. Like the worst thing the show has produced yet. And people then were already complaining that Season 1 was a golden age where they kept true to the books and the writing was wonderful. This type of thinking has been around since the beginning because people continually fixate on what they don't like, how it's different, how they would have written their fan fiction differently, etc.

[RedRonnet]

I agree that the show's overall production quality has diminished, but the show and the writing...not THAT much.

I just re-watched S5 Episode 6 and I laughed just as loudly as the first time that I saw it. The Sand Snake fights were silly, and The Loras hearing was laughable.

However, I got to thinking that maybe it was just sloppy, rushed filming and editing. The Cersei/Olenna scene I'd bet a million dollars was shot with the actresses filmed separately. Go ahead and watch again, there are no shots of the two in one frame. It's a back-and forth, and the lighting even looks different.

Basically, I think that if the show did indeed get a much larger budget and the quality is bad now, then it is ultimately a good thing in the long run.

Please folks, let me explain:


1) The story/plot is being rushed because the producers want the show to be at a certain point when WOW is released. Once it reaches this desired point, the show should "slow down" in pace considerably. This will allow for fans of the new book and show to rant on forums like this one about how they finished so many chapters in one night so they know what will happen next and so on, and the producers don't know what they're doing and all that fun marketing jazz. This is good for book readers because then if the show can draw out one or two seasons from one book alone, it more than likely has a few thousand pages to sift through. Personally, I am hoping for a 5,000+ word novel for each of the final two books in the series.

2) The show is saving its time budget and focus for an epic mega battle of epic proportions that will leave viewers shitting their pants for weeks. The entire first half of season 5 or possibly the whole season will be sacrificed in order to accommodate Dany flying on dragons or white walkers on spiders and dead giants roaming the land and shit. Plus we need to see Stannis siege Winterfell with his army and then we need to see more dragons doing stuff, plus Theon needs to have a kung-fun Tony Jaa type fight scene against hundreds of Roose Bolton's men-at-arms.


Basically, I don't think we need to crucify the producers on the forums just yet. We need to respect that D&D have to get certain characters to a certain point by any means necessary. We can forgive a few episodes under their watch without GRRM doing most of the producing work, but they are treading on thin ice when it comes to altering the plot and characters so much.


Come on guys, let's give em a chance! *Anyone*?

[Good Guy Garlan]

I actually think this is the crux of the issue, the source material has greatly declined in quality since book three. Dorne felt utterly pointless and horribly boring in the books, I'm not surprised that it's not the high point of the show either. They made some improvements (less characters, Jaime and Bronn are more fun than Ser Oakheart), but also got some things wrong (Sand Snakes are not likeable in the least and feel like they're betraying Oberyn's legacy rather than honoring it). In some cases, translating the books directly simply would have made for terrible television, like Tyrion's journey, Brienne's aimless search, Margaery as a cipher without any personality of her own, or cutting half the characters for an entire season. We have to keep in mind that the show had a very difficult job with these later books, whereas I'd argue that translating the excellent and tightly plotted first book into a strong TV series is much easier in comparison (still not easy, but still). I actually really like that they're being more economical with their characters and try to give us more of our old favorites instead of introducing tons of new people that nobody cares about anyway. Giving Jeyne Poole's role to Sansa is a good example of this and actually quite clever in my opinion. And I'm thrilled to see Olenna Tyrell and Jaqen again :D Sure, not everything is perfect (killing Barristan in favor of more Grey Worm? Really?), but then neither are the books.

Yeah, I agree that the last two books are a significant decline in quality.

But, in my opinion, D&D aren't fixing the mistakes of the books, or even addressing them. For example, they're copying GRRM's penchant for dreaded travelogues: Jaime and Bronn reached the Water Gardens until episode six (six!), and Tyrion should've reached Dany by now.

I mean, they make changes no one really wanted (Barristan dying just so we could get more MissWorm scenes, really?), but they're not giving people what they want.

Also, I'm all for merging storylines and characters, really. The last two books are a giant sprawling mess with characters spread across the damn globe, so yeah, things need to converge. But...again, D&D aren't doing it well.

For example, why the stupid nonsense of Jaime and Bronn's super secret mission? Why not give them Balon Swann's role and send them in an official journey to deliver Gregor's skull and bring Myrcella home? That would've spared us the seemingly countless scenes of Jaime and Bronn fucking walking, all the bullshit with the ship captain, etc. It would've given us more Siddig from the beginning.

And why not make an incognito Sansa and Littlefinger guests to Ramsay's wedding with a fake Arya? They could've taken some of Manderly or Dustin's role, while going through similar motions. And that way Ramsay doesn't have to rape Sansa.

Honestly, I would've been ecstatic with these changes done right, but the way they did it was sloppy and didn't fix the weak points of the books.

[Primalsplit]

I disagree with the last books being bad. Hell I even liked the travelougues in the book, especially Tyrion's. The only problem was, they were far too long. Another minor problem is the POV structure of the books had drastically changed in feast and dance. There were too much new characters and they were all over the place.

It was also hard to focus on them for me, when the fate of characters I am invested in were remaining unknown.

Which is to say, does not make bad television at all. What they should have done was simple:

1-Use a POV list like the one in All Leather Must be Boiled, to guide them through the story.

2-Trim the travelogues, not changing or entirely skipping them.

3-Not care about the new POV system at all, as it doesn't even have an effect on TV.

Those 3 problems with the books were already non-existant for TV show in the first place. But instead, they decided to change it as they see fit. Even the parts that would make look just as good in Television. Loras trial. Really? Homosexualism was not a taboo in medieval ages, christendom, or faith of the 7. To me, they only made a fool of themselves with their shallow history knowledge. Dornish plotline was not hard, or longer for a TV adaptation compared to what they did. So why make up boring stuff? If they wanted to write a story of their own, they can go do it. If they decided to make an adaptation, just adaptate it to TV as best as you can. I don't get the appeal to fanfiction. It doesn't ring a bell for me.

[Guess who's back]

Have you heard of these not so good books called Dance with dragons and Feast of crows? Me neither.

[Darryk]

Loras trial. Really? Homosexualism was not a taboo in medieval ages, christendom, or faith of the 7. To me, they only made a fool of themselves with their shallow history knowledge.

Wasn't Leonardo Da Vinci put on trial for sodomy? That's just one example of a historical parallel to the Loras ordeal.

[Razha]

I can agree that in retrospect the splitting the characters might have been not the best idea but I completely disagree on AFFC and ADWD being bad. Actually I would rate ADWD as best written book of the series. It is another matter that it is not as "cinematic" as ASOS...

There are certain problems on the TV show but they are mostly result of simplification/alteration of the book stories.

I am not a die-hard book purist, and some changes work pretty well on their own, especially given the time constraints of 10-episode season, but there are some that do not work: Robb/Talyssa, Locke at the wall, Asha's quest and Dornish adventures are disappointing not because they depart from the books but because they are too brief/ too cliche or even seem pointless (Yarras trip to Dreadfort ??).

Another problem is linked with splitting book3 into 2 seasons - this resulted in some characters having "not enough" original material to warrant a season long arks, and the "filler" that the producers came up with was not always successful.

We still have to see the current season till the end, to be able to judge if Dorne and some other stories are as week as they seem at this point.

[The Eunuch]

The show is still as good as in the first seasons. Some readers don't like the idea of changing things from the books, but it is great television.

The changes they have made so far are good ideas (Brienne vs the Hound was great instead of him dying of a wound, Brienne in the North is better than her wandering in the Riverlands with no outcome, Sansa married to Ramsay is a better idea than Sansa married to a random lord and Ramsay to a fake person, Jaime helping introduce Dorne is better than wandering in the Riverlands while Dorne is introduced by a minor POV, etc). Don't get me wrong : the books are great, I would love to have 10 more books of world building and character developments, but on TV this can't work. And I'm a huge fan and defender of Aegon but I totally understand that it would bore people on TV (especially if he's a fake and/or dies soon).

The first episodes of S5 are a bit slow (books 4 and 5 are even slower) but it's a build up, the ending will be great, there's no reason to doubt that. For the watch, Cersei's walk, Tyrion in Mereen, Daznak pit, wow, this will be one of the best series finale! :drool:

[Drogonthedread]

i seriously think its because of the dialogues ... i get the feeling that we are watching a modern world westeros

[Udvarnoky]

Anyway, after last night's episode, I think it's pretty much confirmed that season five has been the worst season of GoT so far.

Confirmed by who? Some authoritative arbiter of quality ordained by the Seven to cast final judgment of a season of television in progress?

Look, the Dorne stuff is cheesy as hell, but what everyone seems to have opportunistic dementia about is that this show has always had goofy shit in it. It tends to get forgotten in the final calculus because it's cancelled out by the better shit that surrounds it, but this show has always had some ropey stuff.

If you think that season five, as a complete package (which it isn't yet, by the way), represents a significant quality decline versus what came before, you should probably form an argument to that effect. Saying that it's self-evident is the equivalent of saying nothing.

[+cassius]

The show is still as good as in the first seasons. Some readers don't like the idea of changing things from the books, but it is great television.

The changes they have made so far are good ideas (Brienne vs the Hound was great instead of him dying of a wound, Brienne in the North is better than her wandering in the Riverlands with no outcome, Sansa married to Ramsay is a better idea than Sansa married to a random lord and Ramsay to a fake person, Jaime helping introduce Dorne is better than wandering in the Riverlands while Dorne is introduced by a minor POV, etc). Don't get me wrong : the books are great, I would love to have 10 more books of world building and character developments, but on TV this can't work. And I'm a huge fan and defender of Aegon but I totally understand that it would bore people on TV (especially if he's a fake and/or dies soon).

The first episodes of S5 are a bit slow (books 4 and 5 are even slower) but it's a build up, the ending will be great, there's no reason to doubt that. For the watch, Cersei's walk, Tyrion in Mereen, Daznak pit, wow, this will be one of the best series finale! :drool:

You're going to get roasted but ye i agree with you

S3 and S1 also had a kinda slow build up to a degree too and was justified with a fantastic ending

S2 and S4 also had its weak moments such as Qarth and the Yara and Ramsay dilemma.

S5 is no different. Thought last episodes was brilliant other than the Dornish scenes.

Now that there is changes, people nitpick everything cause there moving away from Martin's work.

[+cassius]

After the full season has aired, I could see this being potentially being my favorite season yet.