From Death to Dawn: Jon Will Rise and The Sword of the Morning

[Voice]

My view, for the umpteenth time (talking to you Voice) is that human greenseers learned how to transform people into fire and ice beings.

 

Citation?

 

LOL
 

[IceFire125]

 

 

 

Actually, I don't see Jon as a conqueror at all. I see him clearly as the opposite of a conqueror.

 

It is true that the boy Jon's hero was the Young Dragon - a typical Targaryen conqueror. He mentions him in his very first POV chapter, and his Stark uncle (Benjen) warns him that war is not a game. 

 

"Daeron Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes. 

"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeron Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?" (AGoT)

 

(BTW, GRRM is tricky with the idea of Daeron dying at eighteen. It seems like a parallel with Jon - but I believe it to be a false parallel.)

 

As Jon grows into adulthood, however, he gives up the conqueror dreams and chooses a vocation that is exactly the opposite of conquering: protecting and guarding. 

 

When Jon had been a boy in Winterfell, his hero had been the Young Dragon, the king who had conquered Dorne at the age of fourteen. Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those. (ADwD)

 

The passage above strongly indicates that Jon has given up the conqueror dreams and is preoccupied with more important and more complicated problems. This is the end of the chapter where Jon led the ranging to the weirwood grove so that the new recruits could say their vows there. They found there a group of sick, hungry and exhausted wildings - and Jon offered them refuge in Castle Black. Then, in the weirwood grove he prayed for the lives of his men as well as for Arya -  then he had his epiphany where he realized and embraced his true vocation: The shield that guards the realms of men.

 

Also,while conquerors typically want people to bend their knees to them (as Aegon the Conqueror certainly did), we quite often see Jon physically helping someone stand up - symbolically the very opposite of what a conqueror would do. 

 

Jon came around behind him, slid his hands under his arms, and lifted him easily to his feet. (AGoT)

 

Jon held out a hand to pull Sam back to his feet. (AGoT)

 

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. (ADwD)

 

Jon Snow was the first onto his feet. "Rise now as men of the Night's Watch." He gave Horse a hand to pull him up. (ADwD)

 

This is not the mindset of a conqueror. This is the mindset of a protector, which Davos calls a necessary ingredient of being a king. 

 

In this sense Jon (the white wolf among the Starks) as a Targaryen is not Aegon the Dragon reborn, but the Targaryen antithesis of the Conqueror. 

 

Good post! Definitely agree.  Jon's purpose is not to be a conqueror but the balance of forces, of Ice and Fire, the forces that has the affinity with his blood, which flows inside his vein.

 

I do not require men to kneel, but they do need to obey.

[Lady Barbrey]

I just wanted to agree with this. Greenseer magic a thousand times older than ice or fire magic, from what we know in the books. I'm not sure what semantic whirlpool we are stuck in here with Voice, and Wolfmaid, we don't have identical views on greenseers. But we do have an example of a human being transforming themselves into a fire being, so to ignore that precedent seems like a large oversight. Transformation - it's a thing. My view, for the umpteenth time (talking to you Voice) is that human greenseers learned how to transform people into fire and ice beings. Once they are transformed, I don't consider them to be "greenseers" anymore, as I don't think they would have their former Greenseer abilities. Everything about them has been transformed, I am thinking, and so they are now ice seers or fire seers, whatever term you like. Wolfmaid I think this is where we disagree, iirc. But at a certain level, it's semantics. Neither one of us think that the Others just sprang up on their own, and I think both of us are pointing at Greenseer magic which enables the transformation.
I agree that necromancy is simply a "dead" version of skin changing. Again Voice is fond of semantics here, but I really don't buy his attempt at making them sound so different. It's just the dead version of skinchanging, from what I can see. The fact that Leaf warns Bran not to attempt to call back the dead pretty much tells us, straight out, that greenseers can raise the dead. Mormont also mentions that the cotf could supposedly speak with the dead. There's got to be a reason for this taboo - what happens when a Greenseer raises the dead? Something bad, we can assume.
Cold hands is interesting, because he acts just like a skinchanger - communicating with elk and ravens, even to the point where the elk obeys his commands after splitting up, taking the children to a predesignated location. The ravens talk to him, come home to him at night (as if he were some kind of tree..... ;) ) And even though he stinks with the corpse stink of the wights, the elk and ravens are not scared of him. And why is he unique among wights, free of the blue star eye remote control?
Because he's a Greenseer who has undergone a similar process to what is expected for Jon. Dead body, skinchanger spirit into the animal, body resurrected, merged spirit put back into the undead body. Presto, undead greenseer / skinchanger.
My imagination can't help but wonder what would happen if we took the same process and instead of a skinchanger and their animal, we used a Greenseer and their tree. A merged tree-human spirit, put back into a corpse. I mean... This could be Coldhands, quite honestly. I don't know, it's just that we are given this mechanism for skinchanger ressurrection in ADWD. so it's only natural to extrapolate and wonder about using a tree instead. That would kind of be like a tree spirit body snatching a person, although technically the spirit is part tree and part greenseer.

To me skinchanging is still a bit of a mystery though I've been saying for some time that I suspect it is the same magic power (though with use of different elemental ingedients) at base for the Other necromancy, the Rhllor resurrection, Rhaego's soul transference to the dragons, the shadow binding, and the more familiar skinchanging we see in the books.

Coldhands too might be a case in point. Is BR skinchanging him and the elk sumultaneously to bring the children or did BR resurrect a skinchanger? I think it's the latter as well, LmL, but if so did BR use his own life and blood and soul for that resurrection or did he sacrifice someone else? Is this an anomaly because BR does have Targ blood - fire activates better but the host is consumed faster?

The Beric resurrection is the one that makes the least sense to me - it's like Beric keeps skinchanging his own dead body and losing part of his soul every time.

I'm also not clear on the role of shadows that shadow binders use. It's like they are bits of captured life force, Stannis's seed and his soul - the fallout? -as we watch Stannis dwindle down similar to Beric.

I am also very interested in skinchanging 'remnants' and how they might become ghosts in a paricularly Westerosi manner, attached to an animal host, but when that animal host is skinchanged in turn they leave an imprint on the new skinchanger.

Are these soul remnants - manifesting as shadows or alien consciousness or ghosts -something Qyburn might be using in his Frankenstein resurrection.

I do think with what we know now that a logical working theory, within the parameters of evidence of the five books, might be deduced. Has anyone tried, do you know?

[Voice]

To me skinchanging is still a bit of a mystery though I've been saying for some time that I suspect it is the same magic power (though with use of different elemental ingedients) at base for the Other necromancy, the Rhllor resurrection, Rhaego's soul transference to the dragons, the shadow binding, and the more familiar skinchanging we see in the books.

Coldhands too might be a case in point. Is BR skinchanging him and the elk sumultaneously to bring the children or did BR resurrect a skinchanger? I think it's the latter as well, LmL, but if so did BR use his own life and blood and soul for that resurrection or did he sacrifice someone else? Is this an anomaly because BR does have Targ blood - fire activates better but the host is consumed faster?

The Beric resurrection is the one that makes the least sense to me - it's like Beric keeps skinchanging his own dead body and losing part of his soul every time.

I'm also not clear on the role of shadows that shadow binders use. It's like they are bits of captured life force, Stannis's seed and his soul - the fallout? -as we watch Stannis dwindle down similar to Beric.

I am also very interested in skinchanging 'remnants' and how they might become ghosts in a paricularly Westerosi manner, attached to an animal host, but when that animal host is skinchanged in turn they leave an imprint on the new skinchanger.

Are these soul remnants - manifesting as shadows or alien consciousness or ghosts -something Qyburn might be using in his Frankenstein resurrection.

I do think with what we know now that a logical working theory, within the parameters of evidence of the five books, might be deduced. Has anyone tried, do you know?

 

Lots of interesting stuff here. I think it all comes down to consciousness, and different, unique ways (powers) of manipulating, exploiting, eradicating, and abandoning consciousness.

 

There is the 'Self' contained within one's sense of consciousness. Then there is the 'Biological Self'. Identical twins, for example, have the same genetic/biological self, yet distinct identities due to their individual consciousnesses.

 

I think Skinchanging is a melding of Two distinct and conscious Selves.

 

I see Other necromancy and just that: necromancy (if you are talking about wights).

 

If we are considering the Others/ww's, then I think they are an example of multiple, individual, Human Consciousnesses (and First Men consciousnesses, specifically), inhabiting inhuman magical (but nearly-biological) Selves made of ice. They have bones and blood. They have eyes, hands, legs, feet, and something akin to vocal cords. Their speech apparatus conveys a voice with the timbre of cracking ice on a frozen lake. This again points to a real and tangible body. Rather than being biologically carbon-based, like Men, they are somehow magically ice-based, but they are real bodies nonetheless. I make this distinction because there are several other identities you bring up that do not have bodies, or, do not have bodies of their own. The Others have bodies of their own. They even have clothes, or at least, armor. They seem Human in every way, except their biology - or lack thereof.

 

If we are talking about wights, they are strangely dissimilar from their blue-eyed brethren. First and foremost, they retain human biology. Their blood has been freeze-dried, but it is nonetheless blood, and not ice. They display all the characteristics of human bodies that have recently died, and been frozen. (Remember the shock of cold V6 feels when "true death" comes.) So, in short, wights are frozen, dead, meat. While they are clearly animate, they do not demonstrate any sense of "Self" nor individual consciousness. It may well be that there is some echoes of memory, frozen upon their synaptic alignments, but it remains to be seen if they are truly cognizant creatures. Clearly, something cognizant is controlling and guiding them, but they, in and of themselves, seem more like puppets. It is my belief that Night's King and his Queen are the ones pulling the strings. I think the 13th LC sought to kill the 997th.

 

R'hllorist resurrections remain to be proven, in my opinion, that they were indeed caused by R'hllor. Bodies rising from the dead is hardly rare anymore in the series. And with the "old powers awakening" it is hard to say if recovering alcoholic Thoros actually resurrected Beric, or if it was caused by his faith, or it was cause by his god, or if it was a fluke or spontaneous event. Whatever the mystery is behind Beric, it explains Cat. In any case, there was no death to pay for Beric's life, or else everyone who died could buy their life back with their own death, and that would make no sense. Beric seems special to me, and breaks MMD's rule. Considering MMD studied shadowbinding, like Mel, and Thoros did not, I would say that Beric's life has nothing to do with shadowbinding, nor the 'only death may pay for life' stipulation.

 

Back to what Beric and Cat are, exactly, I think they each demonstrate a functioning biological body, and because of that, memories of the self (like the frozen memories of wights), but no longer possess their own consciousness-derived Selves. I think spirit and consciousness can be seen as one and the same: a living, natural manifestation of identity. Each death bring a little brain decay, for Beric and Cat. They are functioning biological meat, bereft of the living consciousness/Self.

 

Rhaego's soul, or, in my interp, his Conscious Self, left his body when he was stillborn. He was a baby. Sure he had dragon blood, but he was just a kid. The dragons have zero humanity, and Rhaegal demonstrates nothing of Rhaego, in my opinion. 

 

Shadow binding is an interesting one. Well, they all are, of course. But shadowbinding is a lot like horcruxing, in my opinion. A person fragments their own Consciousness, and encapsulates a fragment of the Self by having sex with a shadowbinder. The act of sex, itself, (unlike horcruxes) seems to produce the encapsulation. The shadowbinder provides the shadow, in my opinion, from her very womb (I'm thinking this precludes men from becoming shadowbinders). In her womb, the shadowbinder binds the Consciousness Fragment, delivered via semen, apparently, to a Shadow. Rather than inhuman sidhe made of ice (I'm *winking* at you, JNR lol), we have ourselves a human consciousness fragment made of shadow. Stannis' intent to murder Renly is the fragment he delivered, and Mel delivered the shadow of it.

 

Stannis seems to understand all of this. He remembers doing the deed, almost. It was a part of himself that did it, at least, and he knows that. He even dreams of it.

Coldhands, in my opinion, is the opposite of Beric and LS. His body is a corpse, yet, his Consciouss Self remains in it. Cold seems to have preserved him, and I think if he crossed south of the Wall, he would die. He's been killed already, "long ago" by Leaf's account, yet lives. He, in my opinion, is the only example of a truly living corpse in the novels (but there are a few individuals who come pretty close). Or, at least, he is the only corpse that has retained it's natural, Consciousness-derived Self. I think his Elk is just a loyal beast of burden.

 

I'm open to the idea the cotf resurrected Coldhands somehow, but I think it unlikely. We've yet to see anyone with greenpowers resurrect anybody. I think BR himself is even less likely, as he's old, but not old enough by Leaf's frame of reference to qualify her statement that, "they killed him long ago."

 

Your dwindling comparison of Stannis to Beric is very apt, but I would argue they are dwindling due to different causes. Stannis is fragmenting his Conscious Self, Beric's Conscious Self is long gone, imo. Stannis is dwindling due to very-human guilt, and very sorcerous manipulation. Beric was dwindling due to no longer having his Conscious Self in his body (unlike Coldhands), and instead, only retaining memories of it.

Skinchanging 'remnants' (cool term by the way) is also very apt. I call them artifacts. But, both terms feel a little off the mark to me. When Bran slips into Summer's skin, he is a part of Summer's living, natural Conscious Self. The two of them have bonded with each other. It is a mutual relationship. And, I would argue that Bran demonstrates evidence of Summer being a part of his Consciousness, inside of his Bran-skin, from the time Gared is executed in the first chapter. Bran begins to feel colder, even though the wind has stopped, and the sun is higher in the sky. It is my interpretation that is due to Summer's Consciousness already merging with his own. The "wordless cry of dismay" drives the point home, once he has the pup in hand. If we imagine this as a two-way street, it seems perfectly reasonable that Summer will retain some sense of Bran's Conscious Self, even if Bran died today.

 

In GRRM's universe, he gives further personification to this "sense" and indeed makes it a very literal process in Varamyr's prologue. Varamyr dies, floats around, and finds refuge in One-Eye's body. One Eye, however, unlike V6, is still inhabiting the body he was born with. I think that matters. And I think this is the reason that V6's consciousness, though ever-present, fades in perspective as One Eye's dominance over his own Conscious Self grows. V6 can live as a part of One Eye's mind, but he, himself, is no longer alive. His body died, like Coldhands' body. But, unlike Coldhands, he is not the dominant member of the body he is now inhabiting. One Eye is a wolf, and was loyal to V6, but is still and individual. Coldhands does not have that problem, and, what's more, I believe he is inhabiting the body he was born with. It might be dead, but it's still his own.

 

When Bran finds he is "not alone" inside of the Raven's Consciousness, he knows he is there with a girl, a cotf girl, as it happens. I think he would find V6 inside of One Eye in the same fashion. And, if Bran died, I think a fellow skinchanger would find the "sweet summer child" there inside of Summer.

Qyburn's monster is a whole other beast, but, if that is truly the Mountain's body, and the Mountain's head was truly sent to Dorne, then it appears Coldhands is not the only Conscious Self inhabiting a corpse. I think it's more likely that Qyburn has suspended the Mountain's death, and that the head shipped to Dorne was that of an unfortunate dwarf (gained from Cersei's hunt for the valonqar).
 

Rather than lump these individuals together, and explain them all under the umbrella of greenseeing, or the skinchanging ability, I'd rather marvel at and study their uniqueness. Each seems to be a lesson on identity.

 

Theon almost warrants a spot on this list, poor guy. LOL

[LmL]

I hear ya, but in what way would House Targaryen require redemption from the Others? Or, why would House Targaryen require redemption for anything having to do with the Long Night?

Because the Valyrians are the heirs to the Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai's legacy, as is Jon. Azor Ahai's was the original sin, and it must be atoned for. Why do you think Jon dreams of doing the things that Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor did - and I mean, exactly what they did - while atop the Wall? Because Azor Ahai's trail ends at the Wall.
 

snip

I don't disagree, but I do have some more caveats. The Father's blood in the Bael the Bard story was not all that different from the Winterfell Rose's blood. They were both of First Men stock. And Bael was a Bard... not a Valyrian Dragonlord.

This is an overly literal interpretation. Abel was a musician, as was Rhaegar. Bale "stole" the rose of Winterfell, as did Rhaegar. Bael was an absentee father, like Rhaegar.

Come on man.
 

We completely agree about Jon being of the north, weirwoods, etc... but weirwoods are not north-specific, at least not if we're talking about the tradition of the Old Gods. That religion was once the only religion. Weirwoods once stretched as far as Dorne, and to the Iron Islands. Weirwoods are not a decidedly-northern species.
 
It is easy to relegate cotf and heart trees to the North, because the Starks keep the Old Gods, and the Starks are the North. Then, other northern houses and wildling bands add to that impression.
 
The Weirwood is not the North. The Weirwood is Westeros.
 
Weirwoods do not grow on Essos, and that is what makes Westeros significant, magically speaking, in terms of this threat rising from the North.

Well I'm glad everything doesn't belong to ice. However, the stories of carved faces in the trees of the Ifequevron and the description of the woods walkers themselves implies that weirwoods may have in fact grown on Essos. More likely than not, really. The woods walkers were almost certainly cotf. When the arm was not broken, what was to stop weirs from spreading?
 

Dragons have always been around, but they hail from Valyria, and the Fourteen Flames.

From Valyrian more recently, yes, but they hail from Asshai, originally. And we know the Asshai'i dragonlords came to Westeros in the Dawn Age, not only because of the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle, but because the maesters have found their bones, and we have many stories of dragon slayers lurking around.... Too many for a continent with no dragons. And... Although I know you'd like the dragonsteel of the Last Hero to have nothing to do with dragons... ;)
 

Jon is Weirwood. Jon is Westeros. The wolf demonstrates this, in my opinion.

Uh, ok. Not sure what you mean by this. I agree that the weirwoods represent Westeros. Not sure about Jon. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, in an icy sheath.
 
 

Sure but First-Men Bard's blood is a far cry from Valyrian-Dragon's blood.

Not if any First Men families contains Other blood, and there is a ton of evidence for this. That's exactly equivalent to the blood of the dragon Valyrians, or close enough as makes no matter.
 

Dayne blood seems pretty necessary to me. Or at least, more necessary than Targaryen blood (who were not around during the Long Night). Still diggin' your analysis all the same.

Again, Targs are the heirs to the magic of Azor Ahai, Asshai, the Bloodstone Emperor, etc. If you don't think they are important, you better inform George R R Martin, because he's written them into the story as a pretty big element. About infinity times more important than any Dayne.

Funny how Targrayens keep ending up at the Wall, huh? Funny how Jon dreams of being Azor Ahai and fighting the Others with a burning red sword? Donyou think it's irrelevant that a Targaryen is the Last Greenseer? Jon's tutor at the Wall (maesters Aemon), who tells Jon specifically about Azor Ahai and seems to know a lot about him? Funny how Aemon and Rhaegar were in communication, discussing the concept of a promised prince whose song was ice AND fire? Funny how Dany ALONE sees the blue rose at the Wall? It's almost like Jon has some relevence to Dany or something. Dany is a Targaryen, by the way. Funny how Marwyn thinks Dany is integral to fighting the Others at the Wall - he might be the most magically knowledgeable person in Westeros, if not anywhere in the world.

But whatever - the Targs are just red herrings to entertain people with dragons while everyone important happens at the Wall with Starks, ice Magic, and the basically historical house Dayne, who is now totally irrelevant to the action in the series except to inform on the histories of a few characters.
 

That was silly of me. I stand corrected, m'lady.
 
I see Dany as far more than a conqueror, I see her as the Changing Woman Silver Moon Wife of Sun Herself. She has many roles. But, true to her Targaryen heritage, she is not lacking for conqueror inclinations the way Jon is. That is the distinction I was making, rather than oversimplifying Daenerys as a conqueror. She's far more than that, but that is nonetheless a large part of who and what she is... again... unlike Jon.

Ok, so you see Dany as the moon, which you say changes from icy to fiery. Only thing, Dany is never icy. That's because she represents the fire moon, the second moon which gave birth to dragons when it was burned by the sun's fire. The Nights Queen, skin pale as the moon, has nothing fiery about her - because she represents the ice moon. Mel, the red queen with black blood who gives birth to shadows, also represents the fire moon, and there is nothing icy about her. Val represents the ice moon, and.... You get the idea. OH THAT'S RIGHT - you don't get it. I remember now.

[LmL]

Citation?
 
LOL

That's called a theory - there's a lot of evidence for it, but it requires coherent presentation. I'm sure you'll see my essay when I post it.

[LmL]

To me skinchanging is still a bit of a mystery though I've been saying for some time that I suspect it is the same magic power (though with use of different elemental ingedients) at base for the Other necromancy, the Rhllor resurrection, Rhaego's soul transference to the dragons, the shadow binding, and the more familiar skinchanging we see in the books.
Coldhands too might be a case in point. Is BR skinchanging him and the elk sumultaneously to bring the children or did BR resurrect a skinchanger? I think it's the latter as well, LmL, but if so did BR use his own life and blood and soul for that resurrection or did he sacrifice someone else? Is this an anomaly because BR does have Targ blood - fire activates better but the host is consumed faster?
The Beric resurrection is the one that makes the least sense to me - it's like Beric keeps skinchanging his own dead body and losing part of his soul every time.
I'm also not clear on the role of shadows that shadow binders use. It's like they are bits of captured life force, Stannis's seed and his soul - the fallout? -as we watch Stannis dwindle down similar to Beric.
I am also very interested in skinchanging 'remnants' and how they might become ghosts in a paricularly Westerosi manner, attached to an animal host, but when that animal host is skinchanged in turn they leave an imprint on the new skinchanger.
Are these soul remnants - manifesting as shadows or alien consciousness or ghosts -something Qyburn might be using in his Frankenstein resurrection.
I do think with what we know now that a logical working theory, within the parameters of evidence of the five books, might be deduced. Has anyone tried, do you know?

Hey Lady Barbrey :)

I am super interested in all of that stuff... I always find myself in threads talking about resurrection. I haven't seen one really compelling theory, more like scattered ideas (although if anyone else knows of something like this, please speak up, I'm sure it's out there). I am surprised by how many people think Bloodraven is skinchanging Coldhands, myself. That's probably a bit too off topic to dive deeply into here, we've already pulled Sly Wren's OP in a thousand directions. But I can't help but see the dark shadows Mel births by draining Stannis's soul and taking his seed as being parallel to the white shadows which I think the text implies the NQ created by taking the NK's seed and soul. The difference would seem to be that Mel's shadows don't stick around once they are done their job - and that might be the hang up with the Others, actually. That's not my idea - some have suggested they were created for a desperate purpose, and just didn't go away when they were done. Seems like those pale shadows would need to be bound to something to stick around. But what?

Btw I tend to think Coldhands is like eight thousand years old. I think he was one of the LH's party, if not the LH himself. Undead greenseers is exactly what I think the LH's 13 were. I've been gathering the evidence for this for months now, and I am looking forward to writing the essay. I'll just make this brief point - if the Others are kicking ass, and none can stand against them, we'd need something unique and unprecedented to overcome. What human can journey into the heart of winter, during the raging cold of the Long Night?

Coldhands, that's who. Or someone like him. He doesn't need to eat. Impervious to the cold. Can't be wighted (it would seem). Has access to animal communication and possibly the weirnet as well.

The only question is - can a Coldhands wight wield a weapon of fire without being burned? Perhaps if Voice is right and the LH's sword was Dawn (original Ice), it would work. It's hard to say, we've never seen a real Lightbringer. We don't know what the magical fire will be like. Perhaps it's like the light of a glass candle, who knows.

Great comments, anytime you want to chat skinchanging and resurrection just send me a message, I am always down.

[Lady Dyanna]

Wow, you are welcome! Definitely food for thought! Note that the shade of the evening which warlocks drink in Qarth (Euron Greyjoy as well) are made from the leaves of ebony(ironwood).
I still try to figure out the relationship between weirwoods and ironwoods (ebony). I think they are crucial to the whole puzzle. Weirwoods are white and red while ironwoods are black and blue.
Maybe the blue fire in Jaime's dream has to do something with ironwood magic? And maybe Children of the Forest don't like ironwoods for the same reason they like weirwoods?
Definitely something noteworthy about doors of crypt being made from ironwood. To keep something in like iron swords across Kings of Winter statues? Then maybe Yronwoods were the last line of defence to keep Sword of the Morning, Dawn, safe against the Others and wights due to massive ironwood forests around? Maybe after Starks yielded Dawn to Daynes,there were attempts to get it back with force?

Well, I agree that the Yronwoods are protecting Dawn. That was the piece of the puzzle that you made click for me. I'm reluctant at this point, however, to assume that the ironwoods and the trees used for shade of the evening are definitely the same type. This certainly may turn out to be the case, and I do personally harbor a suspicion that they are in some way connected to the weirwoods, but as yet, the only link we have been provided between the two is the black bark. What I think is starting to become clear is that there is some sort of protective quality related to the ironwoods.

[Nozlym]

Colds hands is Azor Ahai reborn.

 

how did we not see this.

 

its been right infront of us the whole time

 

hes already been ressurected we just havent seen it happen, so we over looked him

 

it all makes sense

[Lady Dyanna]

Great stuff Scorpion, I only want to echo Sly Wren and say for myself that it makes perfect sense to me if the Hightowers and Yronwoods guard and light the way to Dawn, or, the Stronghold where Stars Fall. And yup. Samwell being in Oldtown makes perfect sense. His family is from "Horn Hill", and he has a very important horn in his possession, I am thinking.

Nice connection with the horn. :cheers: 

Yeah, it totally fits with the discussion we were having in forensic files. I think it was the chapter one discussion, right? Ironwood/Yronwood keeps popping up. And, specifically, it keeps popping up in terms of protection/warding. Like Iron. Clinks all around, and I wouldn't kiss him/her, but I'd buy Scorpion a pint tout suite. :cheers:

Prologue, definitely, and chapter 1 too, I think. Again :cheers:

[LmL]

Isn't there a rhyme about "oak and iron, guard me well" or something? Think it's from Dunk and Egg.

[Nozlym]

there is a lot of talk about iron being a anti magic protection agent.

 

especially with the iron swords of the dead stark kings guarding their tombs

 

now we have the yronwoods and actual ironwood trees in the discussion

 

is it pointing to the iron islands having a role to play in the defence against the tides of winter?

 

or is it all just a big red herring?

 

so many unanswered questions that i want to be solved

 

also side note i really want to know more about the yonhs bronze rune engraved armour. always thought it was cool and intrigued me early on with my first reading and there has to be something about it.

 

it obviously doesnt protect against physical harm but maybe magical?

[Lady Dyanna]

Thanks for letting me know?

Sorry, you might be bearing the brunt of my aggravation here. I've just seen too many people be dismissive of sound ideas/theories simply due to the fact that it doesn't agree with their idea of RLJ. I just think that we all need to be open minded until we know for sure. No matter how likely it might be. You really were not being dismissive, so I apologize.
 

I guess the same is true for Mance then, since he's introduced in chapter 1, and then mentioned again in chapter 2.

Well, up to this point, Mance has been relevant to the story, and might well continue to be so. He might not be Jon's father, but he does have plenty of plot relevance. Same could be true with the Daynes. You've actually stumbled straight into one of my favorite crackpots. Mance is Arthur Dayne. ;)

[Voice]

Ah, see? Responses like this are so much simpler with quick quote. Let's dig in...

 

Because the Valyrians are the heirs to the Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai's legacy, as is Jon. Azor Ahai's was the original sin, and it must be atoned for. Why do you think Jon dreams of doing the things that Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor did - and I mean, exactly what they did - while atop the Wall? Because Azor Ahai's trail ends at the Wall.

 

If that ends up being true, then it makes complete sense. I think you are confusing my arguments with someone who does not understand your own. I get it. And, while they are as concrete to you as canon, to me, they remain speculation. It's all plausible. And I agree, it fits. If it turns out that Valyrians, and therefore, Jon, are the BSE/AA's legacy, then sure. It fits. But, that is not yet demonstrable fact. That is speculation.

 

So while I don't mind entertaining it, I have find little peace of mind when the solution to a pressing concern is speculative.

 

 

I applaud your confidence LmL, I really do. But simply because you are confident of your interpretations and analysis, does not mean others can rest assured that their questions have been resolved.

 

 

This is an overly literal interpretation. Abel was a musician, as was Rhaegar. Bale "stole" the rose of Winterfell, as did Rhaegar. Bael was an absentee father, like Rhaegar.

Come on man.

 

You say 'come on man' like I'm missing the point, blind to the parallel. I see it LmL. It's not exactly rocket science.

 

Yet, I question it. How dare I question it! LOL

 

Come on man. As I pointed out upthread, that ground has been plowed countless times, and I've been one of the plowers.

 

I think it's ironic you would point out an overly literal interpretation. It's not really, then, an interpretation at all. It's simply stating the facts at hand. Bael was a Bard, a wildling. Rhaegar was a musician, aye. The parallel, again, is quite obvious. I get it. But, there are differences as well, and, the differences are quite concerning. Call that overly literal interpretation if you wish. I call it keeping my interpretation reasonably within the parameters of the text. To-may-to, To-mah-to.

 

So, a difference that stands out to me, is that Bael, unlike Rhaegar, was not a blood of the dragon, was not a father of fire made flesh, was not next in line for the Iron Throne. It's a great story. And closely parallels the abduction of Lady Lyanna by a musician. But, we know Rhaegar was far more than a harpist.

 

Again, I am not dismissing the parallel, but neither am I dismissing where the stories differ. Differences interest me.

 

 

Well I'm glad everything doesn't belong to ice. However, the stories of carved faces in the trees of the Ifequevron and the description of the woods walkers themselves implies that weirwoods may have in fact grown on Essos. More likely than not, really. The woods walkers were almost certainly cotf. When the arm was not broken, what was to stop weirs from spreading?

 

Well, you'll forgive me if I don't consider the matter settled with implications, maybes, likelys, and almost certainlys. Again, I respect your resolve, but do not share it.

 

The question at the end is worth thinking about.

 

Why wouldn't weirwoods grow in Essos, before the breaking of the Arm?

 

...and, conversely... If weirwoods did grow in Essos before the Arm was broken, whey did they stop afterward?

 

These are the sorts of things we should be asking ourselves. In my view, it is because Westeros is special. And, it is special, magically speaking, because of Weirwoods.

 

Moving on...
 
 

From Valyrian more recently, yes, but they hail from Asshai, originally. And we know the Asshai'i dragonlords came to Westeros in the Dawn Age, not only because of the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle, but because the maesters have found their bones, and we have many stories of dragon slayers lurking around.... Too many for a continent with no dragons. And... Although I know you'd like the dragonsteel of the Last Hero to have nothing to do with dragons... ;)

 

Well, unless the maesters are using carbon dating on the bones, I'm hesitant to attribute them to any pre-Valyrian dragonlords. The Asshai'i dragonlords sounds like more theory and speculation, no offense.

 

You're misrepresenting my impression of dragonsteel. I'm all for dragons being in Westeros during the Long Night, and being involved in the events of the Long Night, but until it's canon, it isn't.

 

That being said, I do find dragonsteel an interesting wrinkle in the northern events during the time of the Long Night. By all accounts, if it is what we might consider Valyrian steel, it predates the established timeline for when First Men should have obtained such blades. It even predates Iron.

 

Again, I see this as a worthy question to consider, but do not share your confidence in your interpretive solutions. They intrigue me, and are interesting, and are plausible, but again, I am not willing to consider these cases closed because of your theories.
 

In any case, I do see the Last Hero's second blade as being made with obsidian. LH's dragonsteel blade is a purposefully ambiguous bit of information. We are meant to question it. But, it's origin is far from revealed. It could have been something as magnificent as Tobho Mott's work, or it could have been something as crude as Jon's daggers. We simply do not know.

 

I would point out that we do not yet know the Old Tongue word for obsidian, and that frozen fire, dragonglass, dragonsteel, and obsidian are all words in the Common Tongue. Thus, it appears as though the records Samwell found are the ethnographic histories gathered and interpreted by Andals. It may well be that Andals called obsidian "dragonsteel." Again, too many unknowns to make any concrete assertions.

 

Uh, ok. Not sure what you mean by this. I agree that the weirwoods represent Westeros. Not sure about Jon. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, in an icy sheath.

Glad we agree on Weirwoods = Westeros.

 

I used to be a big advocate of Jon being AAR. If you dig through my old posts, you'll see it's true. Now, I'm not so sure. Don't get me wrong, I didn't suddenly forget all the passages pointing that direction, nor do I suffer from dementia. I am simply questioning the incongruous parts of that narrative.

 

One of those is Jon's wolf. Jon's wolf is far more Westerosi-looking than it is Stark-looking, because rather than being Grey, it is Weirwood-colored. It, to me (as it signaled to Jon), that his place is at the Wall, rather than Winterfell. That was a big decision in the series. He had to choose the Old Gods, or Mel's red one. He realized that Ghost's eyes were weirwood eyes, rather than red priest eyes. So, I'm leaning away from the AAR narrative, and I think Jon is as well. And, it seems to me that the choices of characters have far more import than the prophecies we might foist upon them.

 

Jon may well end up being something as of yet not-described in the text. It's fantasy after all. And it's not like GRRM has laid but a single path toward heroics or martyrdom.
 
 

Not if any First Men families contains Other blood, and there is a ton of evidence for this. That's exactly equivalent to the blood of the dragon Valyrians, or close enough as makes no matter.

 

Sure, but there's evidence for anything you might hope to find. Oops, wait, before I argue, let me point out that I understand the parallel, once again. It isn't lost on me. LOL

 

I greatly enjoyed Lord Martin's Other-blood OP. But, again, I am not sold on the idea as a proven fact. That was but one additional theory on the mountain of theories. Theories are great, but they do not fundamentally resolve the text for me.

 

So, back to First Men families containing Other blood. That's a tricky topic, because I don't really disagree. I simply see it in reverse. If the Others were once Men, that means they once had hot red blood. Now, their blood looks more like liquid oxygen, and behaves like liquid oxygen. An Otherization process occurred, or, they simply manifested themselves in an image that closely parallels Men. Either way, I do not think human veins can carry Other blood. Other blood is quite cold. Like, cold enough to do some serious damage to the human circulatory system.

 

Might some dna swapping have occurred? I see no reason to think not, I just see it traveling in the other direction, via NK to his queen. It seems she was capable of accepting his seed (sorry for the graphic language, but, GRRM). And that seed was likely not ice cold, unless he was already being Otherized, and the copulations occurred by night. Many possibilities, once again. But I am not ready to declare the Starks have Other blood like that's a fact. It isn't. It's an interpretation. One of many.

 

 

Again, Targs are the heirs to the magic of Azor Ahai, Asshai, the Bloodstone Emperor, etc. If you don't think they are important, you better inform George R R Martin, because he's written them into the story as a pretty big element. About infinity times more important than any Dayne.

Funny how Targrayens keep ending up at the Wall, huh? Funny how Jon dreams of being Azor Ahai and fighting the Others with a burning red sword? Donyou think it's irrelevant that a Targaryen is the Last Greenseer? Jon's tutor at the Wall (maesters Aemon), who tells Jon specifically about Azor Ahai and seems to know a lot about him? Funny how Aemon and Rhaegar were in communication, discussing the concept of a promised prince whose song was ice AND fire? Funny how Dany ALONE sees the blue rose at the Wall? It's almost like Jon has some relevence to Dany or something. Dany is a Targaryen, by the way. Funny how Marwyn thinks Dany is integral to fighting the Others at the Wall - he might be the most magically knowledgeable person in Westeros, if not anywhere in the world.

But whatever - the Targs are just red herrings to entertain people with dragons while everyone important happens at the Wall with Starks, ice Magic, and the basically historical house Dayne, who is now totally irrelevant to the action in the series exce pt to inform on the histories of a few characters.

 

Ok...Targs being the heirs to the magic of AA, Asshai, BSE, etc is once again, an interpretation. I agree GRRM has made Targaryens relevant, and a large element of the story, but I still see the Asshai/BSE stuff as quite tangential, and believe the AA stuff to be a smoke screen. Just my interp. We each have one. LOL

 

I think it is incredibly relevant that Aemon and Brynden were at the Wall together, and that Brynden ventured away from it, to root with the Old Gods. Was that because of his Targaryen heritage? I'd say not. I'm thinking that is because of Brynden's First Men heritage. Like Jon's wolf, I'd say his allegiance was as plain as his weirwood-colored face.

 

And yes, before you start gibbering in some unknown tongue and hopping from one foot to the other, YES. I see that both Jon and Brynden have the mark of the trees. It is an interesting parallel, once again, if Jon has Targaryen ancestry. But it is no less interesting, to me, if Jon doesn't. The First Men parallel is far more intriguing to me.

 

Ok, so you see Dany as the moon, which you say changes from icy to fiery. Only thing, Dany is never icy. That's because she represents the fire moon, the second moon which gave birth to dragons when it was burned by the sun's fire. The Nights Queen, skin pale as the moon, has nothing fiery about her - because she represents the ice moon. Mel, the red queen with black blood who gives birth to shadows, also represents the fire moon, and there is nothing icy about her. Val represents the ice moon, and.... You get the idea. OH THAT'S RIGHT - you don't get it. I remember now.

 

 

You and the strawhead slave may well be right about there being two moons once. But, as you know, I disagree. One moon is enough. One moon may still demonstrate the duality, as we've already discussed.

 

Lastly, I'm not sure if you mean to sound rude, but you sound rather rude. I'm not sure why. I see no reason for it. Mayhaps you don't intend to sound that way. Moving on...

[Voice]

Isn't there a rhyme about "oak and iron, guard me well" or something? Think it's from Dunk and Egg.

 

Indeed. "Oak and iron, guard me well, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell."

 

I can't help but ever be reminded of the Reed oath whenever this little mantra comes up. 

 

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.
“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.
“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.”

 

 

Which always reminds me of that Oak, Holly, and Bitterthorn(?) thing. We also have lots of Oak and Iron doors and "shields"...like the Gate at Castle Black.

[Sly Wren]

I don't disagree, but I do have some more caveats. The Father's blood in the Bael the Bard story was not all that different from the Winterfell Rose's blood. They were both of First Men stock. And Bael was a Bard... not a Valyrian Dragonlord.

 

We completely agree about Jon being of the north, weirwoods, etc... but weirwoods are not north-specific, at least not if we're talking about the tradition of the Old Gods. That religion was once the only religion. Weirwoods once stretched as far as Dorne, and to the Iron Islands. Weirwoods are not a decidedly-northern species.

 

It is easy to relegate cotf and heart trees to the North, because the Starks keep the Old Gods, and the Starks are the North. Then, other northern houses and wildling bands add to that impression.

 

The Weirwood is not the North. The Weirwood is Westeros.

 

Weirwoods do not grow on Essos, and that is what makes Westeros significant, magically speaking, in terms of this threat rising from the North.

 

Dragons have always been around, but they hail from Valyria, and the Fourteen Flames.

 

Jon is Weirwood. Jon is Westeros. The wolf demonstrates this, in my opinion.

Agreed--Bael was the King Beyond the Wall. And the Targs do belong in Valyria--as I said, I keep thinking that if Dany just stayed in Essos, she might have a chance.

 

But Rhaegar was not the stereotypical dragonlord--not interested in fighting, liked singing--a LOT. Books and studies, dutiful--Jorah can call him the Last Dragon all he likes to impress Dany. But given what we know of Rhaegar, he wasn't all that dragonish. Nothing like Jon is stereotypically northern.

 

Agreed--weirwoods are Westeros. And ancient Westeros at that. But, though I don't agree with his conclusions, one thing markg171's argument (http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/107/eddard-wylla-jon) showed really well was that blood or no blood, Ned is Jon's true father. The Stark kids' wolves are actually siblings--though Jon and his "siblings" are cousins. Their direwolf halves are siblings via their magical Stark blood--enough so to make their other-selves full siblings. Their true wolf/Stark sides are so strong, they overcome "blood."

 

And Jon needs the true sword--the sword Ice symbolizes. So, one question seems to be, which is the "true" father behind the "symbol" of Ned? The biological father--be he Rhaegar or Arthur--or is Ned the true father--both surface and symbol (apologies to Oscar Wilde)? 

 

Jon, true Stark and child of the North--is he receiving his "father's" sword--the sword of his true father--Dawn?

 

It does seem to be a question Martin is interested in--the relationship between blood and nurture. And of course, choice. Had Jon's adoptive father been different, Jon would likely have been different, blood or no blood. We also see this with Theon--he makes terrible mistakes. But, even though he knows his blood, Theon is partly Stark. And not just because Ramsay tortures him. 

 

Right now, we don't know if the true Sword of the Morning is of Daynish blood or if the Daynes only hold the sword for the Starks and no Daynish blood is required. I fully admit--Arthur has means and opportunity to be Jon's father. And he gets me around those frustrating "why would Rhaegar run out on his wife" questions. But if Daynish blood is not necessary to be SotM, Rhaegar can be Jon's father, and, like Bael the Bard's son, have his blood suppressed by the apparently insuppressible blood of a Stark daughter.

[Voice]

 

Indeed. "Oak and iron, guard me well, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell."

 

I can't help but ever be reminded of the Reed oath whenever this little mantra comes up. 

 

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.
“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.
“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.”

 

 

Which always reminds me of that Oak, Holly, and Bitterthorn(?) thing. We also have lots of Oak and Iron doors and "shields"...like the Gate at Castle Black.

 

I was just thinking that this actually helps explain how I view the organization of Martin's world...

 

These actually mesh together quite well:

 

"Oak and iron, guard me well, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell."

 

And...

 

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.
“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.
“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.”

 

 

If you'll all humor me for a moment, let me arrange these into a fitting hierarchy:

 

Oak (Nature - cotf)

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

 

Iron (Forging - men)

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

 

Hell: Ice and Fire (death and doom - Others and Dragons)

"We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.”

 

(Side note: I can't help but notice the first and second stanzas are first-person singular, while the third is first-person plural. It seems to suggest that while there is one race of cotf, and one race of men, the coming hell is for both. Or, that while there is Nature, and Man, Hell affects both.)

 

And, this in turn causes my heretically-oriented brain to look again to Robert Frost:

Fire And Ice - Poem by Robert Frost

 

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

 

 

Ice and Fire are the hell-duo on the horizon, for both Oak (cotf/earth/water), and Iron (Men).

 

To bring this back to the OP... LOL...

 

I also see our houses of discussion in these terms. Dayne and Stark are First Men houses (bronze men). Dragons and Others are hell (inhuman).

 

It may well be that Jon is one part man, one part hell, but I think Daenerys already fulfills that role, as did Valyria before her. If the Others are simply "Starks", they provide a nice counterbalance, but I suspect they are most likely of First Men origin, rather than sons of Winterfell.

 

Just two more coppers....

[Lady Dyanna]

We don't know the precise location. But we know it's quite close to the Trident. This passage supports your idea quite strongly, in any case (Eddard III):
 
The castle was a modest holding a half day's ride south of the Trident. The royal party had made themselves the uninvited guests of its lord, Ser Raymun Darry, while the hunt for Arya and the butcher's boy was conducted on both sides of the river. They were not welcome visitors. Ser Raymun lived under the king's peace, but his family had fought beneath Rhaegar's dragon banners at the Trident, and his three older brothers had died there, a truth neither Robert nor Ser Raymun had forgotten. With king's men, Darry men, Lannister men, and Stark men all crammed into a castle far too small for them, tensions burned hot and heavy.

I really like where you both are going with this. It also stands out in my mind that all of the current Stark children are one quarter Whent through Catelyn. Plus, you really have to wonder about House Whent's ancestry and possible ties to bats...

Possible, but that doesn't sound like a very Rhaegar thing to do. And really, while Lyanna isn't exactly overjoyed with her betrothal to Robert, she doesn't exactly sound so vengeful or careless as that.
I agree she was an active participant in her disappearance though, if not the primary conspirator, rather than a helpless maiden who was fallen upon.

Could it have been something like this?

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.I never meant to steal you,he said. I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.If you kill a man, and never mean t, hes just as dead,Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya.

I think House Yronwood gives us their purpose, moreso than the HoBW. Regarding the latter, those doors were Weirwood and Ebony. Ebony is a real type of tree and timber, not just a color, so that is a distinct and separate species...
...like the trees of the Warlocks. I have to agree with LmL on this one. We've no reason to equate Ironwood with the cult of the Undying of Qarth.

Except that there isn't just one type of ebony tree. It is rather a description of the wood that several related trees produce.

Similar Species

The ebony tree is sometimes called the Ceylong or Indian ebony; it is not the only tree that may be called ebony or provide wood that is called ebony. Other tropical species with dark heartwood include Bombay ebony (Diospyros montana), African ebony (Diospyros mespiliformis), Madagascar ebony (Diospyros haplostylis) and Macassar ebony (Diospyros celebica).

From: http://www.gardenguides.com/117257-ebony-tree.html

Yup! that's pretty much exactly how I see it as well. My only caveat would be that rather than Starks requiring Dawn at specific times, it is Dornish Daynes who require Dawn to undo the damage done by the founder of House Stark.

:cheers:

[Nozlym]

Sly Wren, dont forget that Maekar married a Dayne, so all other Targaryens after words have some Dayne in them

[Voice]

I really like where you both are going with this. It also stands out in my mind that all of the current Stark children are one quarter Whent through Catelyn. Plus, you really have to wonder about House Whent's ancestry and possible ties to bats...

 

Oh yes, that too! It is very easy for me to forget about Cat's Whent ancestry, I must admit. Thus, was the killing of Ser Oswell kinslaying?

 

 

Could it have been something like this?

 

It easily could have, but I'm imagining Lyanna as an even more of an instigator/conspirator than Ygritte. But yes, Ygritte was ready to kill Jon, and might have if she had gotten the upper hand. 

 

I'm thinking Lyanna would have poked any true abductor full of holes.

 

 

Except that there isn't just one type of ebony tree. It is rather a description of the wood that several related trees produce.

 

From: http://www.gardenguides.com/117257-ebony-tree.html

 

I had no idea. I assumed the ebony keys on the piano were simply from ebony, and that it was a specific species, rather than a term for multiple varieties that produce that type of timber. Very cool!

 

I suppose that does open up the possibilities a wee bit more. It's hard to deny the trees of the warlocks are not a dead ringer for the opposite of a weirwood, and, they would then be very fitting on the doors of the HoBW. Who knows? Not I... :dunno: