The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Tormund Giantsbane Valar Morghulis Poster [11x17]
Game of Thrones Tormund Giantsbane Valar Morghulis Poster [11x17]
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

why is [spoiler] having a pov?


  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#1 Elrick

Elrick

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 689 posts

Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:52 PM

I am most perturbed about Mel having a point of view... For one I thought that Martin stated before that she wouldn't have a point of view because she'll give to much info away.... Why did Martin change his mind on this one?

Edited by Kat, 22 April 2011 - 01:38 AM.
removed spoiler from title


#2 Queen in the North

Queen in the North

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 164 posts

Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:00 PM

No idea. At first I thought she would be the epilogue POV (and we all know what happens to those... /wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> ), but I think it's now confirmed that she's a real POV, so I don't know. Maybe her POV won't reveal her plans somehow? If there's any author that could pull that off, it's GRRM.

#3 Gurkhal

Gurkhal

    Bannerman of Casterly Rock

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,399 posts

Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:19 PM

I guess that Martin decided that Davos was needed for some other task in the story further away, and that he wanted some other POV except for Jon up at the Wall. It could also be that just as the Ironborn gets a whole bunch of POV when they become more important to the story, the North and the Wall will become more important to the story, and thus he feel a need to add a new POV.

In regards to Mel knowing to much, well it wouldn't suprise me if he changed his starting plans a little and maybe made her a bit more ignorant. OR he felt that having a character that knows some of what's going on may be needed to allow the readers to find out more, and so increase the pace of the action - perhaps...

#4 Theon Greyboy

Theon Greyboy

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 95 posts

Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:35 PM

I, for one, am interested to see exactly how Melisandre's twisted psyche functions.

I'm guessing that GRRM changed his mind for one simple reason: The story progresses. He may have stated in the past that characters such as Melisandre or Howland Reed simply know too much to have their minds delved into... but ASOIAF has to have a conclusion at some point. Therefore, as the series continues to progress, George will logically continue to add more plot-revealing PoVs (or plot-revealing characters, to that end).

On an entirely separate note, I'm hoping we'll finally meet Howland in ADw, even if he doesn't explain the Tower of Joy events.

#5 Mandurang

Mandurang

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts

Posted 20 April 2011 - 02:38 AM

Why does it disturb you? If GRRM wanted to keep Melisandre an enigma, he could do it even while writing from her POV. Much like people were suspicious of Tyrion actually murdering Joffrey because of the apparent lack of thoughts on his POV that explicitly stated he did not (I think closer scrutiny reveals a couple, however). But if he chose he could provide insight to her character without revealing too much of her goals and motivations.

#6 KyleLitke

KyleLitke

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 580 posts

Posted 20 April 2011 - 02:45 AM

I did remember hearing once that she "knew too much", but I dunno, that seems odd to me anyway because she seems to have misinterpreted a lot of stuff. She's not stupid, but she doesn't strike me as being in the same realm as Howland Reed, or Littlefinger, or Varys as "knowing too much".

#7 AvengingAryaFan

AvengingAryaFan

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,032 posts

Posted 20 April 2011 - 03:19 AM

No idea. At first I thought she would be the epilogue POV (and we all know what happens to those... /wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> ), but I think it's now confirmed that she's a real POV, so I don't know. Maybe her POV won't reveal her plans somehow? If there's any author that could pull that off, it's GRRM.

POVs often avoid revealing a great deal. Theon's POV didn't reveal that he was planning to murder the miller's kids and pretend they were Bran and Rickon. Arya's POV didn't reveal what happened with Dareon - including what she thought when he mentioned Commander Snow. Most people don't realize it yet, but she was lying to the KOM when she told her story about Dareon. (I don't know quite how she was lying, unfortunately, but it's doubtful she killed him because she needed him to go to the Wall.)

In view of those examples, I don't think a Melisandre POV needs to reveal too much. I'm not even sure why Martin was worried about it.

#8 TheEvilKing

TheEvilKing

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,795 posts

Posted 20 April 2011 - 03:30 AM

Most people don't realize it yet, but she was lying to the KOM when she told her story about Dareon. (I don't know quite how she was lying, unfortunately, but it's doubtful she killed him because she needed him to go to the Wall.)


What are you blathering on about here?

I think Mel will get the epilogue and she will die in it. Most likely at the hands of the Others. I also think it will be the chapter where the Wall finally falls.

#9 guyminuslife

guyminuslife

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 51 posts

Posted 20 April 2011 - 03:54 AM

she was lying to the KOM when she told her story about Dareon. (I don't know quite how she was lying, unfortunately, but it's doubtful she killed him because she needed him to go to the Wall.)


Clearly, what happened is that Arya told Dareon, "Hey, you! I know you deserted the Night's Watch! You've got to go back there now. I know, they'll probably execute you back there or whatever. I know, you hate it. But you've really got to go there, because I'm Arya Stark of Winterfell and there are a lot of people back in Westeros who would pay a lot of money for that information. But don't tell them! Also, I think you should be killed for desertion, but instead I'm just going to threaten to slit your throat if you don't go back there. I know I'm just a little girl and you're a big badass warrior who fights wildlings and the Others, but you really should be afraid of me! I'm serious here! So why don't you just head back to the Wall...no, of course I'm not going to follow you, I trust that now that we've had this conversation you'll do exactly what I tell you, even though you already deserted. So go tell Jon Snow his sister's in Braavos, ask him nicely not to chop your head off, and have them send someone to come back my way. I can trust you, I've never been betrayed before! No, I don't want to tell Sam, even though he's way better suited for this kind of thing.

"Oh, and by the way, I need your boots. Yeah. You're gonna need to walk around barefoot in the snow when you get back. No, I'm not going to do anything with them, I'm just gonna give them to my boss so I can say I killed you for no apparent reason.

"Thanks! You wanna buy some cockles?"

Edited by guyminuslife, 20 April 2011 - 03:56 AM.


#10 Ran

Ran

    King o' the Board

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 31,638 posts

Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:10 AM

I don't believe GRRM ever said that Melisandre as a POV would give too much away. He said that of Varys and Littlefinger, I believe, but not of her. Any cite for that?

#11 Lord Varys

Lord Varys

    Most Devious 'Man' In The Seven Kingdoms

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,221 posts

Posted 20 April 2011 - 08:43 AM

I for one want all the riddles of this series resolved, not be kept in an utter dark until ADoS. Melisandre does know much, but practically nothing about the political machinations of Westeros - especially not about things connected to Robert's Rebellion.

Melisandre is actually a good choice for a POV, especially as she was portrayed in a way until now which makes it practically impossible to decide what she really wants or believes without being in her very head. She could tell us anything and we would have to believe it, but it would be very difficult to create a situation where Melisandre would share her deepest feelings with another character. Especially as the POV she tells about herself would have to be Jon. I'm sure he and Mel will become closer than Jon deems appropriate in ADwD, but as Mel most likely is going to use Jon for her own ends and plans, I don't see her being completely honest with him.

The only way we can learn the truth about Melisandre, her deepest convictions and her past, is through her own eyes. And as we already know that she is mistaken about Azor Ahai, her knowledge has to have its limits as well. But she has to have some real knowledge about the prophecy at the heart of this series, and I really expect that she is giving us, the audience, finally the exact phrase of this prophecy. At least the phrase of the version of the prophecy she is familiar with.

And Melisandre is certainly not the Epilogue POV, as it is already confirmed that she has more than just one chapter.

#12 Elrick

Elrick

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 689 posts

Posted 20 April 2011 - 03:12 PM

I don't believe GRRM ever said that Melisandre as a POV would give too much away. He said that of Varys and Littlefinger, I believe, but not of her. Any cite for that?


No unfortunately. I think you might be right. I can't wait to read her point of view and no I wont read spoiler chapters anymore. I like to keep myself guessing! /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I think of Mel as evil and twisted but thats just my opinion. For example I think of her as someone who uses 'faith' as a means to manipulate and control people and hate how she burns people alive.

#13 Thefalconemperor

Thefalconemperor

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 189 posts

Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:13 PM

Because we need someone to show what's happening on the wall after Jon Snow's inevitable fleeing. She will make Stannis the Great Other, you know.

#14 WaitingforWylla

WaitingforWylla

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 432 posts

Posted 21 April 2011 - 01:26 AM

I did remember hearing once that she "knew too much", but I dunno, that seems odd to me anyway because she seems to have misinterpreted a lot of stuff. She's not stupid, but she doesn't strike me as being in the same realm as Howland Reed, or Littlefinger, or Varys as "knowing too much".


I think she's fine as a POV. Unlike, say, Howland Reed or Wylla, Mel doesn't 'know' the important stuff in a straightforward way. They, for example, can probably confirm Jon Snow's parentage because they were there during key events or part of the conspiracy to hide something. (Wasn't there some indication in a spoiler Davos POV that Wylla might start playing a role soon, as well?)

In Mel's case, what she 'knows' is what she sees in the flames, which I am going to guess means that there will be a fair number of visions she interprets one way and the readers interpret another.

My guess is that the "Prophecies" section of the Citadel will need some serious updating based on content from her chapters as well.

#15 Lord Varys

Lord Varys

    Most Devious 'Man' In The Seven Kingdoms

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,221 posts

Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:11 AM

Howland Reed doesn't know too much either, he could be a POV. Eventually Jon Snow's parentage is going to revealed, and then Howland Reed won't know that much at all. Even Varys won't know that much in the last volume of the series. At least if GRRM is going to deliver what he has promised, i.e. resolving the mysteries he is building up. I don't read this series to be left in the dark about certain things...

#16 Gaston de Foix

Gaston de Foix

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,381 posts

Posted 21 April 2011 - 06:31 AM

Howland Reed doesn't know too much either, he could be a POV. Eventually Jon Snow's parentage is going to revealed, and then Howland Reed won't know that much at all. Even Varys won't know that much in the last volume of the series. At least if GRRM is going to deliver what he has promised, i.e. resolving the mysteries he is building up. I don't read this series to be left in the dark about certain things...


no fears, Varys if you read GRRM's comments about Lost, he likes his mysteries resolved too!

#17 Volderon

Volderon

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 218 posts

Posted 21 April 2011 - 09:27 AM

I believe we will have some answers to our questions in this book. I mean, an example would be Harry Potter 5 when Dumbledore tells Harry about the prophecy and why Voldemort wanted to kill him.

Well ADWD is book 5, so you need to have some secrets revealed or else it will be stupid. Imagine book 7..."Oh by the way, Jon's the real king btw, k thx bye!" Nah, you have to move the story forward somehow /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#18 Faint

Faint

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,680 posts

Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:10 AM

Quite an assumption to think Melisandre knows too much. As I keep writing on these forums, she might very well have been completely earnest this whole time in her general proclamation (i.e., Stannis is Azor Ahai) even while lying about specifics to get Stannis to trust her (i.e., fake sword, the leeches). Yes, she might have a secret agenda, but we have no proof of this yet.

I tend to think one significant outgrowth of having her POV is that we might get to see her visions in the fire. While she may interpret them wrong, that doesn't mean we will. For example, maybe there will be hints about R + L = J, which she'll have no clue on but which will sound like alarm bells to our ears.

#19 Whatever

Whatever

    beneath the stars came fallin' on our heads

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,083 posts

Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:29 PM

Because we need someone to show what's happening on the wall after Jon Snow's inevitable fleeing.

Unlikely

She will make Stannis the Great Other, you know.

Cool!!!

I'm looking forward to mel's pov. I want her dead, but not now /wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
About Howland Reed: if he's the epilogue POV, i'm going to freak out!

#20 Casso King of Seals

Casso King of Seals

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 71 posts

Posted 21 April 2011 - 09:52 PM

A Melisandre POV is (or at least, SHOULD be) a huge gamechanger - not because she "knows too much" about the story but because she will be our first POV who has a direct connection and deep knowledge of the supernatural (unless Varamyr really lays it on thick in the Prologue).

I like whoever said this has to be when the Wall finally falls. I just hope Martin really recognizes what a Mel POV means to the story and blows us away!

My fear is that it'll be a Cersei level letdown... come on, George, prove me wrong!