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[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion


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#161 littlebird_

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 03:23 PM

Everything else can be solved if Sansa grows up a little to realize that Tyrion is 100 times more capable than any Knight.


Again the if only Sansa grows up a little argument. Sansa's problem with Tyrion was not that he was not a knight, it was primarily that he was a Lannister and part of the family that destroyed hers. She realizes that Tyrion is a kind man but that doesn't change what his family did nor that he himself never considered freeing her. He was a kind captor but he was a captor nonetheless.

#162 The Lost Lord

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 03:27 PM

I don't think a Sansa trial by battle in King's Landing is very likely, since the status quo there has just been shattered by Varys while Sansa is a world away. Things will be moving fast in KL from here on out -- Cersei and the Tyrells will be busy fending off Aegon and Dorne. Once that conflict is settled, we'll see Dany and the Others.

This is why I'm partial to the idea that LF will wait to make his big play until the very end of the series -- after the Others are defeated. I don't think GRRM will take out LF easily, and I don't think there will be time for a satisfying LF downfall in TWOW. I see LF's role in the coming Others conflict as similar to his role in the War of the Five Kings -- he'll keep his head down, feed the realm, make himself indispensable to the people in charge, continue to accrue more influence and power, and no one will appreciate what he's planning until the end. (Plus, I don't think GRRM would let whoever beats the Others sit down on the Iron Throne and end the series there, there has to be a political endgame.)

So what does this mean for Sansa and Tyrion? I agree with those who think that Tyrion's the fly in LF's ointment -- that they're natural rivals who have to have a final reckoning (another reason why LF has to stick around for a while). The idea of Sansa and Tyrion somehow reconciling and allying against LF seems implausible, though, so I'm still unconvinced that Sansa actually will break away from LF.

#163 rue721

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 03:55 PM

Tyrion seems to think that Tysha really loved him and I kind of think Tywin might have been correct that she was really looking for money (not in the cold-blooded Shae kind of way, more like disbelief at her good fortune). I confess, I'm pretty curious to see an encounter between them and since GRRM seems to want to grind Tyrion as deep into the mud as possible, I don't think its outside the realm of possibility.


Oh, I think Tywin was definitely correct, and money was a consideration for Tysha -- how could it not be, when you're talking about a regular girl contemplating marrying into the wealthiest family in the realm? Not to say that money was necessarily the motivating factor in Tysha's decision-making, but obviously it's going to be *an* important factor, because it's an important practical concern and would result in a huge change in lifestyle. That's the obnoxious thing about Tywin -- he actually was on-target a lot of the time.

That doesn't mean that Tysha was fine with getting gang-raped as long as she got some cash out of the deal, though. Or that it didn't hurt her especially to be raped by the family she was supposed to be marrying into, and by the man she thought would be a loving husband to her.

I also wonder about the connection Tywin was trying to make, via that hideous gang-rape and subsequent payment, between "wife" and "whore." I don't know if, for Tywin, there actually is a difference between the two? And maybe that's part of what he was trying to impress on Tysha, on Tyrion, on everyone? Actually, I'm not exactly sure if there's a practical difference between wife and whore for Tyrion, either. In his mind, he seems to try and differentiate between the two, but I don't know if he's actually able to convince himself of that. And I think that's why he's having issues in terms of how to think of Shae. He loved her like a wife, even if she was a whore.

But anyway, I don't even really understand why it would be a bad thing for Tysha, or any other woman trying to survive in the culture of Westeros, to marry for position or money. "Wife" is by far the most respectable and lucrative career any woman in that world has got a chance at, so shouldn't she approach her marriage as a career decision?

On an entirely different topic...I think Sansa is going to meet with Tyrion again, if he survives much further into the series, because he's becoming steadily more ambitious, and he's good at using the resources he's got -- one of which is Sansa, and her claim to Winterfell. The question to me is really whether Sansa will ultimately find her marriage to Tyrion more convenient than an annulment would be -- regardless of whether she wants the annulment in order to marry again or not.

I don't really worry about whether Tyrion would want to remain married to Sansa because I just can't think who it would be more useful for him to be married to. He's a man -- he can have endless mistresses and whores while married, he doesn't have to marry the woman he loves or even the one he has children with. So I would think that the important thing when picking a wife would be about the practical issues.

Just like to suggest that a 'better' marriage might be to someone who cared for him.


I think at the point where Tyrion and Sansa were marrying each other, neither were in the least optimistic that they'd have a love-match with anyone else. The difference, though, is that Sansa was the best possible wife for Tyrion for practical reasons, while Tyrion was a terrible practical choice (mostly because it swallowed her up into the Lannisters) for Sansa.

I also think that while Sansa might have still believed, and maybe even now believes, that someone may fall in love with her one day, I think Tywin did basically convince Tyrion that that wasn't going to happen for him. So while in theory a "better" marriage would involve love at the beginning, I think at least at that point, Tyrion thought best case was at least getting some love eventually. And why not with Sansa, who was otherwise also a great choice as wife?

I don't know how he feels now about the possibility of making a love-match (still haven't read the Epilogue, lol). But even if he were to fall in love with a woman who loves him, I don't know why he wouldn't just take that woman on as his mistress and stay married to Sansa, unless there were practical reasons why marriage to the other woman would be preferable.

All that may sound really venal, but I thought that a marriage in this world was really about making a contract/partnership in the same way people make business contracts and partnerships today, and all the romance stuff was just there to reassure the young girls being married off not to be too scared of their husbands.

#164 Maia

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:01 PM

Again the if only Sansa grows up a little argument. Sansa's problem with Tyrion was not that he was not a knight, it was primarily that he was a Lannister and part of the family that destroyed hers.


Well, doesn't this apply to Sandor, too? He was a servant of the Lannisters and instrumental in Ned's arrest. He may not have hurt Sansa, but neither did he protect her. Etc. Frankly, I am not a fan of San/San and realistically speaking it should have had many of the the same problems as with Tyrion. But Sansa is clearly somewhat attracted to him...

#165 littlebird_

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:16 PM

Well, doesn't this apply to Sandor, too? He was a servant of the Lannisters and instrumental in Ned's arrest. He may not have hurt Sansa, but neither did he protect her. Etc. Frankly, I am not a fan of San/San and realistically speaking it should have had many of the the same problems as with Tyrion. But Sansa is clearly somewhat attracted to him...


I am not a fan of San/San either but I am not sure being someone who serves the Lannisters is the same as being a Lannister, again though we can also say that if Sansa is somewhat attracted to Sandor then clearly the problem she had with Tyrion wasn't solely based on her being grown up enough to appreciate a man who is not beautiful

Sansa rightly or wrongly associates Sandor with safety and she associates Tyrion with the destruction of her family, the girl has had traumatic experiences with men so I am not so sure we should be taking her attraction to Sandor too seriously but he seems to be the only person she associates with safety, if your choices are; sociopathic Joffrey, a kind Tyrion who played an instrumental role in the destruction of your family and is related to the said sociopath and the brutish man who wasn't too kind but never beat her up or isn't part of the family that killed your entire family, you take what you can

#166 Alexia

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:24 PM

Well, doesn't this apply to Sandor, too? He was a servant of the Lannisters and instrumental in Ned's arrest. He may not have hurt Sansa, but neither did he protect her. Etc. Frankly, I am not a fan of San/San and realistically speaking it should have had many of the the same problems as with Tyrion. But Sansa is clearly somewhat attracted to him...

I think Sansa thinks he did protect her to the extent that he was able: he told Joffrey to stop at one point, he saved her from the mob, and he asked her to come with him when he left, promising to never let anyone hurt her again if she did. After he saved her from the mob, she began to think that she didn't think he would let anyone hurt her. I think Sansa associates him with safety and protection, and this is why she is attracted to him.

#167 Sand Snake No. 9

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:14 PM

Well, RL feuds were often ended/punctuated by marriages between the enemy families. Heck, both Starks and Baratheons did it in the past, didn't they? So why not? It would be only realistic. Not that I think that it should be Tyrion, mind.


Tywin did not have Tyrion marry Sansa to forge an alliance and make peace, he made them marry so that the Lannisters could claim Winterfell once the male line of Starks was extinguished. And then, believing Bran and Rickon already dead, Tywin proceed to kill Robb, ending the Stark line. If his plans had succeeded, there wouldn't just have been a Lannister at Winterfell, there would ONLY have been Lannisters at Winterfell. And that result offends me.

I feel like they are sort of punishing her for being feminine (not a cool little tomboy like Arya) I mean why shouldn't Sansa get a man she is attracted to or in love with?* She's got a crush on Sandor for crying out loud, so she is hardly judging men on the way they look.
*aside from the fact that she is in a patriarchal medieval society and has no freedom to choose her husband.


Interesting point. Considering her position, and the fact that she was also beautiful, Sansa's expectation of a marriage that was as pleasing to her as it was to her family's dynastic ambitions was not entirely unrealistic.

LF's (alleged) plan is to send the Vale army out only in spring, IIRC. It will have to wait "until Cersei is done and Sansa is safely widowed", at least.

Indications are that Tyrion will be worth his weight in gold for Dany, because of his dragon knowledge (and westerosi knowledge, including recent political situation and even knowledge of Connington and co).


The Vale is probably the safest place in Westeros at this point; I don't see LF leaving for a long time.

And I wonder about Tyrion's welcome by Dany. She HATES traitors and liars, and I'm sure she's not that thrilled about kinslayers, either, and there are other people converging on Meeren who can offer her as much counsel as Tyrion.

Everything else can be solved if Sansa grows up a little to realize that Tyrion is 100 times more capable than any Knight.


Yeah, if killing women in jealous fits of rage, patricide, chronic drunkenness, whoremongering and verbal abusiveness is your baseline for chivalrous behavior.

#168 Rarm

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:37 PM

I read a few posts on how hypocritical Tyrion is by wanting only the beautiful girls. In his defence it is very difficult to be physically attracted to a deformed person.

Coming back to the topic, why hasn't anyone noticed that Tyrion to take the fall for it. IMO that is a very mature and empathetic behavior in that he understands not only Sansa's desire to kill Joffrey and but also her right to use him as a pawn. For his honor's sake he even stops himself from testifying against Sansa during the trial. But I doubt he would be so forgiving when he sees her with Littlefinger. IMO that is the greatest hurdle to them getting back together. Everything else can be solved if Sansa grows up a little to realize that Tyrion is 100 times more capable than any Knight.



I see what you're saying but I don't think the argument is that he should be attracted to deformed /ugly people so much it is an argument that he seems to think that women should overlook his deformity and fall for him yet he's not willing to do the same as he judges women by their beauty. Thats where people find him a hypocrite. I also think that a big part is that Sansa is torn apart by a lot of fans for being immature and childish, even though she is in fact a 12 year old child who behaves like the majority of girls he age would. In an ideal world Tyrions dwarfism wouldn't matter, but that's not the world of Westeros. As a child or teen I can undersand someone having a rosy view but Tyrion knows what the real world is but he chooses to ignore those facts and wallow in self pity. I know it might sound like I'm being harsh about him but it's the truth IMO I love his character in terms of writing But I have never understood his fans who consider him to be "better than any knight" etc to use your phrase. To make an example : would you consider Tyrion a better person than say Loras Tyrell? I wouldn't. How about Barristan Selmy?(the Barristan thing isn't too fair lol but still I'm making a point that Tyrion shouldn't be considered a good guy just because most knights are jerks.) His negative aspects balance out any good ones. He's a morally grey character and there's nothing wrong with that. He is clever and funny, he has a knack for politics, he's knows a crapton of history, and he can play the game of thrones like a boss. He even has a kind of selective morality. He is a great character but he is still an asshole.

#169 Chirios

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:43 PM

Oh, I think Tywin was definitely correct, and money was a consideration for Tysha -- how could it not be, when you're talking about a regular girl contemplating marrying into the wealthiest family in the realm?


Do we have any evidence that Tyrion told her who he was? I thought he was married under a false name.

#170 Été

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:49 PM

Do we have any evidence that Tyrion told her who he was? I thought he was married under a false name.

From ACoK:
“I love to say your name. Tyrion Lannister. It goes with mine. Not the Lannister, t’other part. Tyrion and Tysha. Tysha and Tyrion. Tyrion. My lord Tyrion... ”

I think we can safely say yes to that one.

Edited by Été, 04 August 2011 - 05:50 PM.


#171 Chirios

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 07:18 PM

From ACoK:“I love to say your name. Tyrion Lannister. It goes with mine. Not the Lannister, t’other part. Tyrion and Tysha. Tysha and Tyrion. Tyrion. My lord Tyrion... ”I think we can safely say yes to that one.


*Slinks into hole, "My mistake", he squeaks*

Anyway, I think that Tyrion's "sharp lesson" had a lot less to do with any practical necessity or any desire to ensure that Tyrion wasn't deceived by a "whore" than it was by Tywin's irrationality. Consider the following:

1) Tyrion is a dwarf, dwarves are highly stigmatised in this society, it'll be ridiculously difficult to make a good marriage alliance for him.
2) Jaime exists. For that matter so does Cersei. Tywin already has other heirs who will take control of Casterly Rock, and if people make fun of Tyrion, who cares? People will make fun of him anyway.

Under these circumstances it wasn't any rational decision making that made Tywin punish Tysha, because he wasn't punishing Tysha. He was punishing his father's lover, and by extension, his father. He was punishing the woman who stole from his dead mother and who made his father a laughing stock. It had nothing to do with Tysha, or Tyrion.

#172 Sand Snake No. 9

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 07:28 PM

He is a great character but he is still an asshole.


That says it all. Thanks.

#173 Alexia

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 07:50 PM

I agree with you he most likely wouldn't want to marry again. He also doesn't need to, he has heirs aplenty if he does get given CR if he does ally with Dany successfully. I can see him finding the existing marriage useful as an excuse - after all, if a single man inherits CR and becomes Warden of the West, and maybe even Hand too? Then no dwarfism in the world will stop the great and the good pestering him constantly about their daughters. If he's married already then it's not awkward and he doesn't have to offend anyone valuable by refusing their dear darling.

You know, the problem I have with this theory is that it seems like it would be really awkward and a bit of a disgrace for him to be married to a woman who is separated from him. He is using Sansa as an excuse right now with Penny, but when he gets back to Westeros I think he will need to deal with her -- either to jointly request an annulment, to fight her on it, or to demand her return. With a missing wife who has run away from him, the mockery will be that much worse than it was in KL. And imagine if she takes a lover! I agree there's a solid chance he might not want to marry again (it hasn't turned out well for him at all and he seems just as bitter as Sansa about the idea of marriage now) but I don't see the marriage standing with the two of them using it as an excuse and not living together. It is something that they both have real incentive to deal with, I think. At the moment, it might be that much better for Sansa because it prevents LF from marrying her off but I don't see that it does much for Tyrion besides shame him. Sansa is also a prospective heir to Riverrun, and will be Rickon's heir for years to come until he grows up, marries, and fathers children. So the powers that be in the story have an incentive to ensure that she doesn't start birthing bastards, unless Sualk's theory comes to pass and she escapes them all in favor of village living.

BTW, I always think you have interesting theories, even when I disagree, so I'm happy you are joining in! /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


But the good news is that it looks like Cersei will go up against the HS and survive, and possibly win. Yes, it was horrendous for her, but she managed it with nary a mark on her. He has a weak spot - the "women are weak" thing. Sansa would bawl her eyes out in front of him, this poor little 12 year old who didn't know what the hell was going on....he could swallow it, maybe....

You know, if there's anything the HS likes less than women it is probably kinslaying, kingslaying, whoremongering Lannister dwarfs. I think there is a decent chance of Sansa playing up an angle of being the innocent victim of the twisted monkey demon and the Lannister harlot. Her biggest problem with him is that reputation of tree-worshipping. I am intrigued.

Not really, Jaime still has quite a few less desirable characteristics in his only ADWD chapter - as he is pulling down the last Direwolf banner (well, until Winterfell changes hands again I suppose), taking hostages and issuing threats. He's bringing the "Lannister peace" and from my perspective as a Stark loyalist that is really galling.

Wouter, you are preaching to the choir. I don't like Jaime, I don't think he's really redeemed himself (many thoughts and little action), and I want him to die. However, I do think most readers find him to be more sympathetic now that he's come into conflict with his sister.

For all that he talks about redemption, not only did he not interfere on Jeyne's behalf but he has evidence (false evidence to be sure, but still evidence) that Sansa had nothing to do with Joffrey's death in the form of a confession from Tyrion and he still did NOTHING to intervene on her behalf with Cersei. We'll see how Tyrion's arc evolves, but I find him far less likable than the happy go-lucky dwarf of AGOT and downright evil at times. Also, you comment on the hard hand of slavers but Tyrion actually thought that there was little differences between slaves and Westerosi smallfolk; I think he thought Dany was misguided. And finally, Dany likes dangerous men but she most surely likes them hot. Tyrion stands a chance of earning her respect and becoming a valuable adviser but none of landing in her bed.

Fair enough, I hadn't really considered that Tyrion was afraid that she'd make a terribly humiliating (for him and her) scene and he wanted to check beforehand if she was resigned to it or not. Now, Sansa had already decided to go along at that point but Tyrion can't know that.

Well, she hadn't until the suggestion of another Lannister came up -- she was begging Joffrey for help, of all people. But she really could have humiliated him much more than she did, she could have vomited from the fear and shock, fainted, begun screaming hysterically, all sorts of things. I hadn't considered that this was his motivation either but it is quite believable.

I do think Cersei would have had her dragged into the sept for the vows. There was no need to beat her into saying the words, they could have locked her into a room without food until she agreed to say them, the HS could have married her illegally without saying them. They also could have threatened her with rape, which would seriously diminish her value to anyone else and she would know this. Nobody believes that Sansa consented to the marriage anyway but it doesn't make a difference what people think of it if the words are said and she is bedded.

I don't see Tyrion ending up as lord of Winterfell; I like Tyrion well enough, but if that would happen anyway then I hope Sansa gets widowed (by Shaggydog, say) really quickly because a Lannister in control of Winterfell just isn't right.

Agreed, the Lannisters must not succeed with their plans or benefit from their avarice and what they've done to the Starks.

Sansa absolutely must learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, and what LF did to Ned. It just doesn't make sense from the story perspective for her not to learn these things. And incidentally, Sandor Clegane was in the courtroom to see LF's betrayal of Ned and may know what happened to Jeyne. It would make sense for her to learn about either or both incidents from him, if they encounter each other again.

What I think may drive her to really go against LF is learning about what happened to Jeyne Poole. Bran apparently knows a lot of what happened with her as he was likely the one urging Theon on through the weirwood, and if he manages to contact Sansa (like Theon, or through visions in dreams, or even through speaking raven) he could possibly tell her LF was involved in breaking down Jeyne for use by the Lannisters and the Boltons. In that case, the "strangler" would come out I think.

As for hearing about Cersei, I think Sansa would be sad for her, she knows what it means to be publicly humiliated, I can not see her enjoying that news, of course who knows maybe she is more bitter towards Cersei though I never really got that impression.

Sansa is afraid of Cersei and hates her -- and she was publicly stripped by Cersei's son. I genuinely don't know how Sansa will react to this news. She has a really kind heart and I could see her feeling sorry for Cersei (like she did for Tyrion and Joffrey) but I could also see her taking some pleasure in this turn of events. She may decide that the gods are just as she did with Joffrey when she thought that Robb died at a wedding too.

#174 inkasrain

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:44 PM

Sansa is afraid of Cersei and hates her -- and she was publicly stripped by Cersei's son. I genuinely don't know how Sansa will react to this news. She has a really kind heart and I could see her feeling sorry for Cersei (like she did for Tyrion and Joffrey) but I could also see her taking some pleasure in this turn of events. She may decide that the gods are just as she did with Joffrey when she thought that Robb died at a wedding too.


Whatever Sansa's reaction to Cersei's experiences, I think it will lay out a lot of what we can expect from Sansa personally through the final (fingers crossed) two books. I desperately hope she retains at least a small capacity for pity, because I think that ability to feel sympathy for people who have caused her immeasurable pain is what will stop Sansa from becoming a heartless, laugh-at-the-suffering-of-innocents schemer like Littlefinger. Sansa may have to make awful, even indefensible decisions in the game of thrones, but that compassion will make her an infinitely more careful and subtle of a player-- and that's better for everyone.

But whatever she feels about Cersei, I'm pretty sure that Sansa will come away from that story with an iron determination that such a thing never happens to her. It will be interesting to see if this dovetails well with her developing political skill and kindheartedness, or if something eventually will have to give.

#175 rue721

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:48 PM

*Slinks into hole, "My mistake", he squeaks*


Good, because it was absolutely, positively NOT a blind guess that Tysha knew who he was. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

I think that Tyrion's "sharp lesson" had a lot less to do with any practical necessity or any desire to ensure that Tyrion wasn't deceived by a "whore" than it was by Tywin's irrationality.


I agree absolutely that the farce Tywin orchestrated around Tysha-as-Tyrion's-bride was absolutely about Tywin. I think Tywin needed to constantly prove that:

1. Tywin is not weak. Which means constantly pulling incredibly humiliating, domineering shit on the people around him. *Especially* his children, maybe because they remind him of himself while simultaneously seeming vulnerable, maybe simply because he has a great amount of power over them. He needed other people feel small so he could feel big, I think, and there was nobody he could make feel smaller than his kids.

2. Everybody is a whore. Tywin constantly needed to prove to himself that money = power, because then, as long as Tywin has money he has power. And Tywin was constantly obsessed with getting more power because he was terrified of ever being weak.

The reason I think that matters in terms of the topic at hand is, I think he more than half-convinced Tyrion of both those things -- to fear/despise being weak (while simultaneously feeling weak), and to think of everyone as a whore. But I don't think Tyrion is actually anywhere near as cynical as Tywin was (maybe because he actually could count on or feel protected by his father in *certain* ways? I think there's something there, because he was also very tied to his family for a very long time, and is even now fixated on Casterly Rock. Or maybe if he wanted to really buy into Tywin's cynicism, Tyrion shouldn't have read so many of the same kind of beautiful stories Sansa did while he was growing up /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />). I actually think that fundamental lack of cynicism is what trips him up even now, and that's why he gets confused about what to expect from women -- he's either thinking in terms of beautiful storybooks or his father's "they're all whores" idea, which are both really extreme.

(BTW: I think Cercei completely bought Tywin's bullshit, btw, more than either of Tywin's sons. Maybe because she wasn't a big reader? /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />).

I hadn't really considered that Tyrion was afraid that she'd make a terribly humiliating (for him and her) scene and he wanted to check beforehand if she was resigned to it or not.


it would be really awkward and a bit of a disgrace for him to be married to a woman who is separated from him.


To me, it's not just about being humiliated in front of *other* people, it's also about feeling bad *inside.*

In terms of Sansa and Tyrion living apart, for example, I think that as long as she doesn't take a lover and does bear him children, and they visit a few times a year or so, nobody would really think much of it. They have a lot of land to manage, first of all. And Tyrion would likely be away from the countryside often since he'd likely be involved in politics, so it would make sense for Sansa to simply say she's staying apart from him in order to raise their children in the country. I don't think that would look strange to anyone else, really -- in fact, I would think that for these people that would be the rule rather than the exception.

I think Sansa's issues with that arrangement would be:
1. she would still technically be a Lannister, and so would her children -- that's a major hurdle, I think. But one that doesn't really have to do with whether they'd live apart or together, but rather if they should get an annulment or not, generally.
2. She'd want out if she fell in love with someone else. That would be impossible if she were having Tyrion's babies -- no chance of annulment, obviously! But that would be an issue with anyone she married, so again, I don't think that's a hurdle to the apart/together dilemma, and is just about whether they should get an annulment or not.

But I think even though he wouldn't necessarily be *publicly* humiliated by the arrangement, I do think Sansa's "rejection" would privately eat away at Tyrion, and it would ultimately be a bad idea for him to agree to it. I think he would be willing to live as man and wife in name only, at least for a while, just like he was willing to wait to consummate. But I think it's important to him as an individual to feel *wanted,* and feeling as though he's not could definitely becomes a bigger and bigger embarrassment to him personally until it really messes with his head and makes him an even worse person than he already is. Maybe having a mistress who "wants" him would be enough, I don't know...but if I were his friend, I'd be like: don't do it! ticket to insecurity-ville! Lol. Because you know that given enough time and enough rejection, that man is someone who would end up thinking, just like Tywin did, "they're all just whores. best just concentrate on racking up enough money to pay them"...and that is how a monumental asshole is born. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

Btw, if there were an "asshole scale" of 1 (total dick!) to 10 (sweetest ever!), I'd put Tyrion at about a 5.5 and Sansa at about 6.5. I don't think Sansa owes it to him to try and make it work or anything, any more than she owes it to anyone else to love them or marry them. To me, it's just a question of: if they do want to stay married, what expectations do they have for the relationship, and what arrangements should they make so they're most likely to meet those expectations?

If I were Sansa, I'd wait until it's clear I have to make a choice between living as Tyrion's wife or getting an annulment, and then I'd get an annulment (Tyrion doesn't ultimately have anything that Sansa's desperate for, because she's not really ambitious anymore when it comes to titles or money or the high life). If I were Tyrion, I'd wait until there's a better marriage offer on the table. Then, if I liked the other girl better than Sansa (for Tyrion, that probably means "if the girl likes Tyrion better than Sansa likes him"), I'd get an annulment and marry the girl. If I liked Sansa better than the other girl, I'd demand that Sansa come live with me as my wife or get an annulment. Wow, I'm wishing that there were a flow-chart formatting option at this point. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

Edited by rue721, 04 August 2011 - 09:06 PM.


#176 Chirios

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 09:28 PM

If I were Sansa, I'd wait until it's clear I have to make a choice between living as Tyrion's wife or getting an annulment, and then I'd get an annulment (Tyrion doesn't ultimately have anything that Sansa's desperate for, because she's not really ambitious anymore when it comes to titles or money or the high life). If I were Tyrion, I'd wait until there's a better marriage offer on the table. Then, if I liked the other girl better than Sansa (for Tyrion, that probably means "if the girl likes Tyrion better than Sansa likes him"), I'd get an annulment and marry the girl. If I liked Sansa better than the other girl, I'd demand that Sansa come live with me as my wife or get an annulment. Wow, I'm wishing that there were a flow-chart formatting option at this point. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />


He's kind, which by now I think Sansa values more than anything. Her dislike of him stemmed more from the fact that he was a Lannister than his dwarfism.

Marrying Sansa automatically makes him one of the High Lords. With Tywin dead, and if a Targ gets on the throne, he has a very good claim for Casterly Rock, so combined they'd have 2 of the 7 kingdoms.

#177 Alexia

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 09:44 PM

He's kind, which by now I think Sansa values more than anything. Her dislike of him stemmed more from the fact that he was a Lannister than his dwarfism.

Marrying Sansa automatically makes him one of the High Lords. With Tywin dead, and if a Targ gets on the throne, he has a very good claim for Casterly Rock, so combined they'd have 2 of the 7 kingdoms.

Sansa will never win the North as the wife of Tyrion Lannister, of that I have no doubt. Actually, rethinking Tywin's proposition of trying to win Winterfell with Sansa and her son I actually think the Northmen would have killed Tyrion if he had tried. I do not know what would have happened to Sansa after so long in Lannister hands and coming North as the tool one was using to claim the North. But no way in hell do Manderly and Karstark and Bolton and the mountain clans acknowledge Tyrion as Lord Protector of the North after that war.

Tyrion will never be Lord of Winterfell, or Lord Protector. Lannisters, Freys, and Boltons move at their peril there now.

#178 inkasrain

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 09:44 PM

Marrying Sansa automatically makes him one of the High Lords. With Tywin dead, and if a Targ gets on the throne, he has a very good claim for Casterly Rock, so combined they'd have 2 of the 7 kingdoms.


"They" wouldn't really have anything. Tyrion Lannister would be lord of Casterly Rock and Winterfell, and Sansa Lannister would be... his wife. Their Lannister children would divide the inheritance somehow, and from then on, "There must always be a Lannister in Winterfell."

I personally just can't support any development of which that is the outcome.

#179 Alexia

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 09:46 PM

Interestingly, I was reading some of Sansa's chapters in ACOK and there is one where Tyrion tells her he does not plan to ever have her wed Joffrey because no marriage will ever reconcile Stark and Lannister after all that's taken place. He knew the truth of it all along, and it is rather mindboggling that he even made an effort.

#180 Aelinor

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 09:46 PM

I don't see how he automatically qualifies to be Lord of Casterly Rock, especially if Dany/Aegon takes the throne. His father had their family brutally murdered. We've seen that the throne can strip/award lands and titles very easily. Unless Tyrion is actually able to get on their good side(s), he may not be lord of anything.