[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Wouter]

I think Sansa had already lost hope that she would be treated well or would ever have a happy home-life at King's Landing -- she was at her lowest point, or nearly -- but meanwhile, Tyrion was on his way up. He had a great job that he was doing well at, and his father was marrying him very well. He was at the highpoint of his life so far and it was already more than he'd hoped for. I don't think it's crazy that he would be very optimistic about having a happy marriage, and meanwhile Sansa would be very pessimistic about it, even besides the way all the power and benefits were so heavily weighted on Tyrion/the Lannister's side in the marriage.

Interesting point that Tyrion was indeed on top of the world at the time he married Sansa (until she refused to kneel - guess that's when reality started to hit home at last).

I guess that's another reason why I think that, if they were to meet now (and I'm not entirely done with ADwD, so please forgive me if this is already obsolete) Sansa would find Tyrion to be a painful blast from the past threatening to taint the safety of her current life, and Tyrion would feel ashamed to take up his reigns as Sansa's husband after falling so far (both in terms of his integrity and in terms of his position/accomplishments/hopes) since their marriage night.

Tyrion will soon go on the up again, I guess. He is going to come back from the east and it will not be with his head in shame, I'm pretty sure of that. And at that point, whatever safety Sansa may have found is likely to be put in turmoil again by events surrounding the Others or the Dragons.

I also find it hard to believe that out of all the men in the world, one who is closely tied to a horrific period in her young life is the one Sansa would ultimately choose.

Sansa is not going to choose Tyrion if she is allowed to choose, but she may not be able to have much of a say in her future husband (whether or not that may still be Tyrion after all). Few Westerosi noble girls seem to do (and non noble girls probably not either), and Sansa's eventual marriage will probably be subject to Targaryen approval, or outright command. Unless, maybe, she can leave the south behind her alltogether before all hell breaks loose there, but I think Sansa is tied to the south.

[trio]

Honestly? Tyrion & Sansa have barely thought of each other in the year since they last met. At this stage I'd be staggered if they even met again.

But guys, please - for the love of all that's holy - give up the annulment thing! What series are we reading where that's remotely likely!? All these legal hoops! IF the High Septon dies, IF Cersei dies, IF Sansa can prove she's a virgin (fun for her!), IF the marriage to Tysha is somehow still valid, IF Sansa can basically do it by post so stays hidden.....

Just answer me this - why oh why is it somehow preferable to stick a random annulment in there as opposed to one of them just being widowed at the end? Why the fascination with annulments?!

[Alexia]

Trio, I am sorry that it offends you, but people are discussing possible avenues for the storyline to go and speculating on the various reasons that one can get annulments for in Westeros. It entertains us; I happen to think that Tyrion is going to die in the last novel (I actually think he's being turned into the ultimate villain, which is rather fun) but I am still open to speculating about other possibilities.

I don't understand why someone would be outraged by people discussing an annulment as a story possibility, when the Lannisters clearly indicate at the beginning of the marriage that this is a concern for them. It is a perfectly legitimate possibility within the context of the world and story.

[jons nissa]

You recall wrong and actually might want to consider re-reading that chapter. He was nowhere near the level of victim that she was in the marriage, she was given to him as a reward for his efforts in battle. Some victim, given a pretty wife and half the kingdoms.

actually tyrion is not very happy about his "reward". if you refer back to the chapter, he refutes every argument tywin makes FOR marrying sansa, the best one being the first one:

His Grace the royal postule has made Sansa's life a misery since the day her father died, and now that she is finally rid of Joffrey you propose to marry her to me. That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father.

She's no more than a child.

If your purpose is to keep her from the Tyrells, why not return her to her mother?

His father replied: She must marry a Lannister, and soon

.

even his private thoughts do not sound very excited about the prospect:

Sansa Stark. Soft spoken sweet smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of the boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet

.

why does tyrion go along with it? his father tells him (perhaps for the first time?) of the numerous houses he approached to broker a marriage on tyrion's behalf, all without success. and then his father tells him:

You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell

.

that hardly sounds like he was lusting after her or winterfell. i think he probably believed this might be his only chance to have what any highbord lord was groomed to expect to have. but yes, the marriage was far more advantageous to tyrion than sansa. isn't that usually the case?

Tyrion could have chose to exchange her already in ACOK, if he had tried harder to reach (partial) terms with Robb Stark.

according to tywin, this could not happen because she would have been matched to a blackwood or a mallister to shore up alliances against the lannisters. or she would have been married to a manderly or umber. let's not forget there is a war going on and tywin plays to win.

I think the marriage can work perfectly well as a political marriage if Sansa only did some growing up. There are plenty of worse husbands in Westeros than Tyrion, and alot of women there marry out of politics and don't love their husbands. But I'm having a hard time seeing a marriage between them with genuine romantic love.

sansa is indeed still very immature at this stage of the story. just note her reaction to being told she was marrying tyrion:

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas. I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge and sons named Eddard, Bran and Rickard

.

considering all she's been through at this point of her story, her thoughts are still very much as they were when she wanted to marry joff and have beautiful blond babies. so yes, she is still very immature. i actually think it's littlefinger that is forcing her to grow up. she then remembers what ser dontos tells her: tyrells or lannisters, it makes no difference. its not me they want, only my claim, and agrees to marry tyrion with the hope of escaping king's landing completely.

sansa's story is definitely a sad one but no more so than many other women. in the same scene where tywin tells tyrion he is to marry sansa, he tells cersei she is not only to marry willas, but produce more children! while many are not sympathetic to cersei, her position is no different or better than sansa's in the eyes of the westeros.

[Alexia]

sansa is indeed still very immature at this stage of the story. just note her reaction to being told she was marrying tyrion:

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas. I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge and sons named Eddard, Bran and Rickard

.

considering all she's been through at this point of her story, her thoughts are still very much as they were when she wanted to marry joff and have beautiful blond babies.

It is immature to want the marriage that she negotiated with the Tyrells instead of being forced to marry an absolutely hideous man from the family that has held her hostage, murdered her father, and is fighting a war against her brother? Here is another quote from Sansa, thinking about her marriage.

Willas Tyrell was twice her age, she reminded herself constantly, and lame as well, and perhaps even plump and red-faced like his father. But comely or no, he might be the only champion she would ever have.

Another one: If I give him sons, he may come to love me.

Another one: She wanted to look beautiful for Willas Tyrell. Even if Dontos was right, and it is Winterfell he wants and not me, he still may come to love me for myself.

I find her thought processes about the marriage she agreed on to be very sad, and representative of how much she's changed.

but yes, the marriage was far more advantageous to tyrion than sansa. isn't that usually the case?

No. Usually families negotiate marriages for their daughters that benefit their family as well. Like the one that Ned initially made for Sansa, that made her a Queen. Or the one Tyrion made for Myrcella. Or the one that Mace made for Margaery.

[littlespider]

I find her thought processes about the marriage she agreed on to be very sad, and representative of how much she's changed.

Agreed! The disintegration of her idealism as regards her own personal relationships is one of the most wrenching things about her story. She's not just dreaming about puppies, babies, and wealthy Highgarden with Willas; she's dreaming most of all about being loved.

And isn't that what she sort of has given up on by the end of aFfC? Being loved by her potential husband? Still only partway through my rereads, and I don't have it in front of me.

[Alexia]

Agreed! The disintegration of her idealism as regards her own personal relationships is one of the most wrenching things about her story. She's not just dreaming about puppies, babies, and wealthy Highgarden with Willas; she's dreaming most of all about being loved.

And isn't that what she sort of has given up on by the end of aFfC? Being loved by her potential husband? Still only partway through my rereads, and I don't have it in front of me.

No, at the end of ASOS she's given up on the idea! When Lysa is announcing her intention to marry her to little Robert. Her thought processes are just really sad in a kid that age: she starts by wanting to be a beautiful queen to a beautiful king and have beautiful princes and everyone bowing to her. Then she's refusing to imagine the face of the man she's agreed to marry, sight unseen, to keep from getting her hopes up, steeling herself to the idea that he might look like his dad (okay, I thought that was funny in a way), and thinking about how she'll get him to love her for herself. Then she decides that she doesn't want to get married again. It is a very clear evolution of how she perceives relationships (and Tyrion has played a very powerful role in the development of that) and it is very sad, and very interesting.

I genuinely think Sansa's idea of a happy ending would be to go home to Winterfell, never leave again, and be Lord Rickon's maiden sister all her life. Which is highly unlikely to happen.

[jons nissa]

It is immature to want the marriage that she negotiated with the Tyrells instead of being forced to marry an absolutely hideous man from the family that has held her hostage, murdered her father, and is fighting a war against her brother?

no i don't fault sansa for wanting one man over another. i merely point out that someone considering marriage doesn't usually use puppies as a factor.

No. Usually families negotiate marriages for their daughters that benefit their family as well. Like the one that Ned initially made for Sansa, that made her a Queen. Or the one Tyrion made for Myrcella. Or the one that Mace made for Margaery.

actually robert brokered that marriage no doubt to sweeten the pot so ned would accept the hand position. and, of course, robert loved ned and no doubt found the idea a good one. plus, the men that would come as a result of that alliance would make any king offer it. sansa getting to be princess is no doubt why ned agrees.

as for myrcella, she's offered to the dornish prince to prevent them from allying with renly. and it is made very clear that she would be a hostage, like theon, until the marriage with trystane. hardly in her favor but it does get her out of king's landing at a very dangerous time.

i agree that mace was trying to be as strategic as possible with regards to margaery.

[jons nissa]

Agreed! The disintegration of her idealism as regards her own personal relationships is one of the most wrenching things about her story. She's not just dreaming about puppies, babies, and wealthy Highgarden with Willas; she's dreaming most of all about being loved.

i think it had to happen. from the start sansa is too immersed in fairytales. not one relationship is portrayed that way in this story. even the beloved catelyn and ned:

Was it really such a terrible thing to want a pretty wife? She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on ned.....Even when he took her maidenhead, it was more of duty than of passion

.

let's not forget that when this marriage takes place, ned is in love with ashara and cat with brandon. but they do their duty and eventually form a strong, happy marriage. well, except for jon.

there are no fairytales in westeros but that's not to say girls can't want their prince. however sansa really does hold onto that dream. quite tightly.

I genuinely think Sansa's idea of a happy ending would be to go home to Winterfell, never leave again, and be Lord Rickon's maiden sister all her life. Which is highly unlikely to happen.

i completely agree.

[rue721]

she starts by wanting to be a beautiful queen to a beautiful king and have beautiful princes and everyone bowing to her.

I think Sansa's hopes that she and her husband will love and admire each other, and will be a beloved lord and lady, are actually pretty realistic.

That's basically her parents' life, right? What kind of child-cynic doesn't believe (or at least hope) that her life will be as good as her parents' is?

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas. I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge and sons named Eddard, Bran and Rickard.

I also don't think that imagining creating a happy home is immature, especially when your own home has been destroyed. And of course she'd include puppies in that vision -- poor girl lost Lady, and she's talking about the puppies in the same breath as she's imagining naming her kids after her lost family members. Her brothers and direwolves are just as much a symbol of home and happiness to her as anything else, so of course a tribute to them would be included in her fantasy.

But guys, please - for the love of all that's holy - give up the annulment thing! What series are we reading where that's remotely likely!? All these legal hoops! IF the High Septon dies, IF Cersei dies, IF Sansa can prove she's a virgin (fun for her!), IF the marriage to Tysha is somehow still valid, IF Sansa can basically do it by post so stays hidden.....

Just because I'm an asshole at heart, I guess, this made me wonder about how they *would* go about the annulment thing. :P

Would Tyrion agree to an annulment, anyway? It's still to his benefit that he's married to Sansa. On the one hand, he's been relatively kind to Sansa in the past and I could see him going along with the annulment proceedings for her sake, but on the other hand, I would think that it would be to his benefit to keep his connection to Winterfell now more than ever, so he might need to contest it for political reasons.

If I were Sansa, though, my argument for the annulment would be that Tyrion is physically incapable as a husband. Cruel, I know, and obviously it's not actually the case. But he hasn't impregnated anyone beyond a doubt that I know of, and everyone can see that he's not "normal" physically. So I think with some careful lies and playing on everyone's bigotry, it might be easier to push that argument than for her to try to come up with some legal issue that relies on paperwork or past contracts or whatever. She can just say that she entered into the marriage with the idea that Tyrion was capable of consummating it, he wasn't, and therefore they aren't married. The only people Tyrion could come up with to argue that he can consummate are whores, and whores' testimony can't hold up considering *of course they can be bought.* Oh, and Jaime, maybe, since he was there when Tyrion raped Tysha? But that's pretty flimsy, too. Someone could give Tyrion an examination, but honestly, that sounds like it'd be doomed to failure -- how would they prove his ability to consummate based on a doctor's external examination?

The downside is that it would ruin any chance of an alliance between Tyrion and Sansa afterward, so that's kind of a Plan Z as opposed to a Plan A, imo. But might be worth trying, if Sansa is truly desperate for an annulment.

[Alexia]

If I were Sansa, though, my argument for the annulment would be that Tyrion is physically incapable as a husband.

:lol:

This actually is not a bad idea, and I think she could get away with it. Lysa asked herself if Tyrion was incapable.

As far as I can see, however, the only real obstacle to annulment is that she is wanted for Joffrey's murder and that she is a tree-worshipper. If it weren't for this, I think the HS would hand it to her on a silver platter (if only to stick it to the Lannisters) because of the fact that Tyrion was convicted of killing Joffrey, killed his father, et cetera.

However, she may have recourse under the old gods. It is mentioned that Lady Hornwood's marriage is valid because she was married in front of a heart tree (I think there was a septon too?) before witnesses and immediately bedded. So I think that women can get annulments in the North too. I'd actually be interested to learn a little bit more about how some of these things work in the North since they don't seem to have priests.

[inkasrain]

I genuinely think Sansa's idea of a happy ending would be to go home to Winterfell, never leave again, and be Lord Rickon's maiden sister all her life. Which is highly unlikely to happen.

There's no question in my mind that Sansa wants to return to Winterfell, but I think that Sansa is still someone who can flourish under responsibility and public expectations. She is good at being a lady and she enjoys it, and I think that as she continues to grow and develop an understanding about the nature and exercise of power, Sansa will want more than to live out her days as a meek spinster in her lord brother's shadow.

And Sansa is, as I see it, still inherently curious about things like relationships, love and sex. While she certainly isn't naive, almost all of her "romantic" experience has been twisted and skewed, and I think she is still looking to learn what the "real deal" (or as close and she can get to it) is all about. Coupled with the experience of power she's learning to employ-- which she obviously never came close to in King's Landing-- I don't think retirement is quite her style just now.

[Dio Forel]

Interesting sidenote from the asoiaf Wiki for Tyrion:

Spouse Tysha (annulled), Sansa Stark (annulled)

[lightweightatheist]

:smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug:

He does seem to be bitter about losing her all the same. Some lines from Tyrion's chapters: "I don't seem to be able to keep wives for very long", "all the girls cry when I kiss them", "most women prefer to be done with me as quickly as they can" - all references to Sansa for the most part IMO (though the first one is also about Tysha, to be sure).

He also called her "false" in his thoughts. Tyrion apparently still doesn't realise just how badly he treated Sansa, as he apparently expected her to love him and be loyal to him even though he had forced her to marry him while he was holding her captive, in the midst of a war between his family and hers (which ended with hers being wiped out, as far as both knew at the time). He made her a Lannister and put a stop to the betrothal with Willas, which she was looking forward to. For such an intelligent guy (so intelligent that he has a perfect read of Dany without ever meeting her), he is remarkably blind when it comes to Sansa and how he expected her to react. How could Tyrion ever expect to be loved, did he think that one time he openly helped her would wipe out all the rest of the injustices?

I don't know if I buy any of this. Maybe this is what Sansa thought was happening, but it's not what Tyrion was doing. He didn't want to marry her either. He tells her before the marriage to just say a word and he'll have it called off (although he would have to give her to a different lannister, but still showing that he's willing to let her go himself). Did he know about Willis? I'm not under the impression that he did. The only starks presumed to be dead at this time are ned, bran, and rickon, maybe arya. Robb is still alive and fighting (not saying the lannisters havn't done anything wrong here, but just pointing out her family was not "wiped out"). I don't think he necessarily thought she would love him and be loyal, he just gets annoyed that she's constantly putting on her courtesy armor. The whole point of his character is that he wants a woman to want him even though he is what he is. That's why he's constantly paying whores, because they at least pretend to want him. He obviously is not forcing her to do anything :smug:

[Alexia]

Did he know about Willis? I'm not under the impression that he did.

He did. Littlefinger told Tywin, and Tywin told Tyrion.

[Alexia]

There's no question in my mind that Sansa wants to return to Winterfell, but I think that Sansa is still someone who can flourish under responsibility and public expectations. She is good at being a lady and she enjoys it, and I think that as she continues to grow and develop an understanding about the nature and exercise of power, Sansa will want more than to live out her days as a meek spinster in her lord brother's shadow.

And Sansa is, as I see it, still inherently curious about things like relationships, love and sex. While she certainly isn't naive, almost all of her "romantic" experience has been twisted and skewed, and I think she is still looking to learn what the "real deal" (or as close and she can get to it) is all about. Coupled with the experience of power she's learning to employ-- which she obviously never came close to in King's Landing-- I don't think retirement is quite her style just now.

I agree that she's curious (and she thinks of Sandor Clegane every time sex is mentioned) but she says that she doesn't want to get married. I think that Sansa associates marriage with trauma right now and I don't see her character ever being happy about the concept of marriage anymore. This doesn't mean that she's suddenly become asexual (she clearly has not) and she would be very good at being the lady of a castle.

Maybe when Rickon is revealed and she is no longer the Lady of Winterfell, she will begin to feel differently. But right now, she is very aware that people are trying to marry her for her claim and she very clearly resents it.

Interesting sidenote from the asoiaf Wiki for Tyrion:

Spouse Tysha (annulled), Sansa Stark (annulled)

I saw this before reading ADWD and got very confused. For a while I was thrilled; I thought I was learning a spoiler.

[Septa Morgaine]

Wow, lots of great thoughts here - Fringe Theory: Is it possible that Sansa successfully learns guile and intrigues from LF and subsequently out plays him with Tyrion as an ally? At some point she may find out how his lies helped trigger the War of the 5 Kings...along with her family's ruin.

[Dio Forel]

I agree that she's curious (and she thinks of Sandor Clegane every time sex is mentioned) but she says that she doesn't want to get married. I think that Sansa associates marriage with trauma right now and I don't see her character ever being happy about the concept of marriage anymore. This doesn't mean that she's suddenly become asexual (she clearly has not) and she would be very good at being the lady of a castle.

Maybe when Rickon is revealed and she is no longer the Lady of Winterfell, she will begin to feel differently. But right now, she is very aware that people are trying to marry her for her claim and she very clearly resents it.

I saw this before reading ADWD and got very confused. For a while I was thrilled; I thought I was learning a spoiler.

Definite confusion here too. Idk where that site gets some of its information from.

[inkasrain]

I agree that she's curious (and she thinks of Sandor Clegane every time sex is mentioned) but she says that she doesn't want to get married. I think that Sansa associates marriage with trauma right now and I don't see her character ever being happy about the concept of marriage anymore. This doesn't mean that she's suddenly become asexual (she clearly has not) and she would be very good at being the lady of a castle.

Maybe when Rickon is revealed and she is no longer the Lady of Winterfell, she will begin to feel differently. But right now, she is very aware that people are trying to marry her for her claim and she very clearly resents it.

True, I meant to note in my post that marriage wasn't a prerequisite to her exploration of relationships. Still, I'll nurse my personal hope that Sansa will be able to marry for love one day. Unlikely, I guess, but given her negative experiences, I think a love-match and the stability it could bring would be very healing for her.

I don't think he necessarily thought she would love him and be loyal, he just gets annoyed that she's constantly putting on her courtesy armor. The whole point of his character is that he wants a woman to want him even though he is what he is. That's why he's constantly paying whores, because they at least pretend to want him. He obviously is not forcing her to do anything :smug:

The thing is, Sansa has no way of knowing from one day to the next what Tyrion will decide to do with her. He told her he wouldn't sleep with her, and that's great, but what if he changes his mind? What if he gets sick of the entire court laughing at them, or he comes to their bed drunk one night and takes her anyway? Tyrion holds 100% of the power in their relationship, so Sansa has no choice but to don her "ladies' armor" and push him away with everything she has.

[Alexia]

True, I meant to note in my post that marriage wasn't a prerequisite to her exploration of relationships. Still, I'll nurse my personal hope that Sansa will be able to marry for love one day. Unlikely, I guess, but given her negative experiences, I think a love-match and the stability it could bring would be very healing for her.

I agree (though I don't think it will happen) but I don't think Sansa trusts men very much at this point. She is actively creeped out by LF's advances towards her and Myranda's interest in marrying the guy and she is traumatized by her experiences with Joffrey, to some extent Tyrion, and the short-lived betrothals to little Robert and Willas. She has her little crush on Sandor Clegane, but I don't see this new Sansa letting men very close to her and I think she's got a long way to go (years, actually) before she is genuinely able to contemplate the idea of having a relationship with some new man with any sort of interest or anticipation.

I actually would really like to see Sandor Clegane reintroduced into Sansa's life just to see how she reacts to him with her burgeoning crush, the memory of being kissed, and the way she associates him with sex. And to be honest, I feel a bit sad that her character is now so cynical about men and relationships. Naive Sansa was frustrating but also very sweet (see above quotes about Willas) and I miss her.