[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Silverin]

Why? Seemed a sweet enough boy in the little we saw of him. And AFAIK he isn't accused of fathering bastards yet, unlike Harry the Heir.

Probably, Tyrion really did suspect Sansa. Allthough I wonder how he thinks she arranged for all that to happen, including the dwarfs and everything. But I guess he may have an inkling about LF being involved somehow.

I certainly agree Tyrion will want to find out the truth about Joffrey's murder and I would be very surprised if he and Sansa never have a confrontation about this.

In some ways yes, as Tyrion is personally kind to her (well, with those 2 big exceptions about not exchanging her as a hostage and marrying her) and very intelligent as well. But, as long as Tyrion is associated with Lannisters that's an impossible thing to swallow for Sansa (if he fights on Dany's side against his family that might help I suppose). There is the physical revulsion to consider; an honest reaction from Sansa's side which she may not be able to "get over it" even if she should stop associating him with everything that is wrong in her life.

And while Tyrion obviously did appreciate Sansa in some ways, he never thought much of her intelligence and that will have to change as she isn't near as dumb as he thinks she is (actually she fooled him easily enough when she didn't want to be guarded by Tyrion's men, and again with her visits to the Godswood - Tyrion never had a clue she was plotting to escape all the time). And likewise, Sansa couldn't really appreciate how clever Tyrion is as he never told her anything about the things he did and why he did them. They were living completely separate from each other (except in the physical sense).

Just so.

In addition, she is accused of regicide. One could expect the High Septon to arrange a trial for her to determine her guilt in all of those issues. OK, maybe he would see political gain in embracing a northern girl to win her to the Seven (it is also known that Sansa did her fair share of praying in septs, besides her treeworshipper reputation), but taking a gamble with this guy is dangerous. Look at what he did with Cersei for sleeping around (not for her other offences, which are much more serious) or what he did to Margaery based on a few false accusations. I don't expect him to love Starks on principle; northmen are not very dear to the faith in general.

Thinking about the trial the girl already has a friend among the faith (the gravedigger), so she might will have some support and Meribald septon ended up among the people of Lady stoneheart whom would probably want Sansa free. Littlefinger said one time that he does not plan everything before. For example with the blade thing that was improvisation. I wouldnt be surprised if LF would have some very religious friend. Even the ones among the pious could have something behind their ears and well LF has his share of brothels in KL, he can know things.

[Zaida]

In some ways yes, as Tyrion is personally kind to her (well, with those 2 big exceptions about not exchanging her as a hostage and marrying her) and very intelligent as well.

I think he would have exchanged her, but he was removed as Hand too quickly to accomplish all that he was trying to. He was also as much a victim in the marriage as she was. He didn't ask to be married to her. He objected when the idea was first put before him. What would Tywin Lannister have done to him if he had refused? I seem to recall there were some threats involved.

[Alexia]

I seem to recall there were some threats involved.

You recall wrong and actually might want to consider re-reading that chapter. He was nowhere near the level of victim that she was in the marriage, she was given to him as a reward for his efforts in battle. Some victim, given a pretty wife and half the kingdoms.

[Trinket]

I think the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion will be of importance later in the books, when Tyrion takes the impregnable Eyrie from dragon back. Tyrion does have a problem with the Eyrie, we know the Eyrie is impregnable from the ground, and you just know that the Eyrie will become involved in Westeros' problems sooner or later. Whether this will mean that he will die, littlefinger will die, sweetrobin will die, or something else will happen I can't guess, but somebody will fall out the moon door.

That's my theory.

About them meeting again, I think it can go either way. I think the marriage can work perfectly well as a political marriage if Sansa only did some growing up. There are plenty of worse husbands in Westeros than Tyrion, and alot of women there marry out of politics and don't love their husbands. But I'm having a hard time seeing a marriage between them with genuine romantic love.

[maigrey]

I think that the other side of this is that Sansa also occasionally thinks of Tyrion. And irrc she seems fond of him. Maybe she's not longing for the guy but there is a "wouldn't it be nice if Tyrion were here" wistfulness. And she seemed slightly concerned he was taking the fall for Joffry's death.

I also don't know how much she considers him a true Lannister (even though he probably is). Especially after he's killed Tywin. Unfortunately he doesn't really fit the part of Sansa's dream knight so I dunno.

[littlebird_]

About them meeting again, I think it can go either way. I think the marriage can work perfectly well as a political marriage if Sansa only did some growing up. There are plenty of worse husbands in Westeros than Tyrion, and alot of women there marry out of politics and don't love their husbands. But I'm having a hard time seeing a marriage between them with genuine romantic love.

I never quite comprehend this argument. The reason the marriage didn't work is not because Sansa is immature (you might think she is but that particular trait has no bearing on the failure of the marriage) it fails because Tyrion is a Lannister and is holding her hostage and is part of the family that killed all her family.

[Silverin]

I never quite comprehend this argument. The reason the marriage didn't work is not because Sansa is immature (you might think she is but that particular trait has no bearing on the failure of the marriage) it fails because Tyrion is a Lannister and is holding her hostage and is part of the family that killed all her family.

Sansa is not immature when it comes to see past the appearance and love someone depite the way he looks. She does have romantic thought about Sandor and he is not a dashing knight. And at their wedding night she remembered how her septa said a lady has to see the beauty in every man, and she was actually TRYING to find the beauty in Tyrion.

On the other hand when Tyrion sees a girl who is not attractive he immedietly sees her as ugly and he doesnt even considers girls who are not hot as someone he might want. Just how easily he is fooled by the appearance is showed by the Shae incident.

So in the looking past the appearance aspect and loving the other because of the personality Sansa is already lightyears ahead of Tyrion.

[littlebird_]

Sansa is not immature when it comes to see past the appearance and love someone depite the way he looks. She does have romantic thought about Sandor and he is not a dashing knight. And at their wedding night she remembered how her septa said a lady has to see the beauty in every man, and she was actually TRYING to find the beauty in Tyrion.

On the other hand when Tyrion sees a girl who is not attractive he immedietly sees her as ugly and he doesnt even considers girls who are not hot as someone he might want. Just how easily he is fooled by the appearance is showed by the Shae incident.

So in the looking past the appearance aspect and loving the other because of the personality Sansa is already lightyears ahead of Tyrion.

I agree completely, that is why I always found it interesting that the reason for Tyrion/Sansa not working given by most is 'when Sansa is more mature' or 'because she wants a handsome knight' when clearly she has a crush on or at least fantasizes about a man who is not a dashing knight and the marriage was based on Sansa being forced. And its not like most political marriages in Westeros, it is being forced by your mortal enemies to marry into their family so that they can claim your home after killing all your family.

[memmorio]

I don't think you can call it immature when the person you are talking about is a CHILD.

[automne]

The Sansa-Tyrion discussions never cease to amaze me. Some boarders are so biased towards Tyrion that they hardly ever blame him for anything.

Ok, he is indeed one of my favourite characters, his POV is fun to read, but, let's face it, he is far from being a young girl's dream and I hope Sansa will find a way to have that awful marriage annulled.

[MedStudentEmily]

I agree with the posters who are pointing out the hypocrisy of blaming Sansa for not overcoming Tyrion's status as a dwarf when Tyrion is unable to do the same for Penny. Not that I don't love Tyrion- I totally do and have sort of developed a crush on Peter Dinklage's portrayal of him- is that weird? Probably, sorry... Anyway, it's interesting to watch our own double standards at work. We're quick to blame Sansa but less quick to blame Tyrion for not considering Penny.

[rue721]

I definitely think the marriage was a happier thing for Tyrion than for Sansa.

By marrying Sansa, Tyrion gets a claim on the North and a (probably) fertile wife, both of which would already make it a good idea for him. An added bonus is that Sansa is (relatively?) smart, beautiful and a good person. Sansa's a great catch, and I thought that Tyrion's only issue with marrying her was that she seemed so against the marriage herself -- and that bothered him because he didn't think it was right to force her. I don't blame him for hoping she wouldn't find him hideous and lump him in with his evil family forever. Who wouldn't hope that?

By marrying Tyrion, though, Sansa gets nothing. Her only claim to power would be in a court she must desperately hate, with Tyrion she's trapped in that court forever (or until they're exiled), he was deformed at birth which would likely worry her in terms of bearing his children, even though *we* know that Tyrion has no other physical problems besides the relatively minor one of being a dwarf Sansa doesn't necessarily know that -- she might have been wondering what his physical/mental limitations were generally and imagining the worst, she finds him physically unattractive, and to top it off, he's the youngest son of a family that plotted the murder of all her loved ones. Yes, including Lady!

Also, thankfully, Tyrion wasn't a terrible person and didn't force or beat Sansa, but in theory he *could* have at any moment. In addition to having complete legal power over her because he's her husband, he's also significantly older and "wiser" than she is, good at manipulation, and good in combat -- so what Tyrion wants from Sansa, Tyrion could certainly get (in theory). That had to be terrifying. Sansa was already going to be primed for being scared of her husband because of the horrors she underwent with Joffrey, and I understand why she would fear she was going from bad to worse in marrying Tyrion in particular. I think in general, wives were going to be getting a rawer deal than husbands in any marriage in that kingdom.

I think Tyrion did act very honorably with Sansa (in terms of treating her with empathy), and I think maybe over time Sansa could *appreciate* that. But I think the associations he has for her in terms of his family and in terms of the period of life in which they knew each other would preclude her ever *wanting* to be around him. I don't think that's immature.

In terms of being superficial -- Sansa needed a rescuer at that point in her life, and instead she was marrying an anchor that would keep her trapped in Court and trapped with her tormentors. I don't think it was possible for her not to be revolted by Tyrion just because of that, and I don't think it would have been different (it might have even been worse, since it would have been reminiscent of Joffrey) if she'd found him physically attractive. In terms of Tyrion, I think beauty has a lot of symbolic value for him -- I think he does think, fundamentally, that beautiful people are worth more than ugly people. Just the fact that he thinks he needs to "make up for" his looks by making sure he's educated and smart makes me think that he does think beauty gives the beautiful person an amount of basic worth that he doesn't have, because he's not beautiful. I think that at the point where he was marrying Sansa, he still had a kind of fantasy that if a beautiful woman loved him, it would prove he'd finally made himself (through hard work and accomplishments) worth as much as the beautiful people around him. On the one hand, that is basically the definition of being superficial...but on the other, I don't think that's about looks per se so much as it's about him needing validation, and he would have the same issues with any trait in which he thinks he's very deficient and it's resulted in him being reviled.

I think at this point (still haven't finished all his chapters in ADwD, so maybe I'll be proven wrong), he thinks that he's intrinsically undesirable -- even to the point where he doesn't believe that Penny wants him, *as she's kissing him.* I think what finally did it is becoming a murderer -- I think now he thinks he's beyond all hope. Maybe he's right, who knows? So if Sansa showed up, I think he would be too ashamed to act as a husband in *any* way with her. When he tells Penny he can't kiss her because he wants to honor his marriage vows, and she believes him, he says something about how she must be absurdly naive to believe such an obvious lie. To me, that doesn't sound like someone who hopes any longer that he will have a loving wife or has any believe that it's possible. And god even knows what's going on with Sansa.

[Alexia]

I think that at the point where he was marrying Sansa, he still had a kind of fantasy that if a beautiful woman loved him, it would prove he'd finally made himself (through hard work and accomplishments) worth as much as the beautiful people around him. On the one hand, that is basically the definition of being superficial...but on the other, I don't think that's about looks per se so much as it's about him needing validation, and he would have the same issues with any trait in which he thinks he's very deficient and it's resulted in him being reviled.

I think that this is a very good analysis of Tyrion and his issues with women and beauty. An additional thing I have noticed is that if someone doesn't like Tyrion, he immediately jumps to the conclusion that it is because he is ugly. Case in point: when he was allowing his wildlings to murder and loot in KL, and tore down all the homes of the smallfolk outside the city. He then went on to be very upset to learn that they blame him for all Joffrey's excesses, and blamed it on his appearance. When he was on trial for his life, he said that he was on trial for being a dwarf -- but people really, truly, believed that he killed Joffrey and in no small part because of mistakes he made (threatening to hurt Tommen, threatening to geld Joffrey, threatening Joffrey's life, et al).

If Tyrion could get past the self-esteem issues he would be able to see much more clearly where he is making mistakes that are causing him trouble. His appearance is certainly a factor in how he is perceived, there is no denying that. But his key problems, IMO, involve actions and words that are not thought out beforehand. He makes himself very easy for others to hate in a lot of ways. I actually find the whole cycle in terms of how Tyrion perceives himself and those around him, his actions, and how he and his actions are perceived by others to be extremely fascinating and well done characterization. His behavior with Sansa is an example of this.

[Raksha the Demon]

I definitely think the marriage was a happier thing for Tyrion than for Sansa.

By marrying Sansa, Tyrion gets a claim on the North and a (probably) fertile wife, both of which would already make it a good idea for him. An added bonus is that Sansa is (relatively?) smart, beautiful and a good person. Sansa's a great catch, and I thought that Tyrion's only issue with marrying her was that she seemed so against the marriage herself -- and that bothered him because he didn't think it was right to force her. I don't blame him for hoping she wouldn't find him hideous and lump him in with his evil family forever. Who wouldn't hope that?

By marrying Tyrion, though, Sansa gets nothing. Her only claim to power would be in a court she must desperately hate, with Tyrion she's trapped in that court forever (or until they're exiled), he was deformed at birth which would likely worry her in terms of bearing his children, even though *we* know that Tyrion has no other physical problems besides the relatively minor one of being a dwarf Sansa doesn't necessarily know that -- she might have been wondering what his physical/mental limitations were generally and imagining the worst, she finds him physically unattractive, and to top it off, he's the youngest son of a family that plotted the murder of all her loved ones. Yes, including Lady!

Also, thankfully, Tyrion wasn't a terrible person and didn't force or beat Sansa, but in theory he *could* have at any moment. In addition to having complete legal power over her because he's her husband, he's also significantly older and "wiser" than she is, good at manipulation, and good in combat -- so what Tyrion wants from Sansa, Tyrion could certainly get (in theory). That had to be terrifying. Sansa was already going to be primed for being scared of her husband because of the horrors she underwent with Joffrey, and I understand why she would fear she was going from bad to worse in marrying Tyrion in particular. I think in general, wives were going to be getting a rawer deal than husbands in any marriage in that kingdom.

I think Tyrion did act very honorably with Sansa (in terms of treating her with empathy), and I think maybe over time Sansa could *appreciate* that. But I think the associations he has for her in terms of his family and in terms of the period of life in which they knew each other would preclude her ever *wanting* to be around him. I don't think that's immature.

In terms of being superficial -- Sansa needed a rescuer at that point in her life, and instead she was marrying an anchor that would keep her trapped in Court and trapped with her tormentors. I don't think it was possible for her not to be revolted by Tyrion just because of that, and I don't think it would have been different (it might have even been worse, since it would have been reminiscent of Joffrey) if she'd found him physically attractive. In terms of Tyrion, I think beauty has a lot of symbolic value for him -- I think he does think, fundamentally, that beautiful people are worth more than ugly people. Just the fact that he thinks he needs to "make up for" his looks by making sure he's educated and smart makes me think that he does think beauty gives the beautiful person an amount of basic worth that he doesn't have, because he's not beautiful. I think that at the point where he was marrying Sansa, he still had a kind of fantasy that if a beautiful woman loved him, it would prove he'd finally made himself (through hard work and accomplishments) worth as much as the beautiful people around him. On the one hand, that is basically the definition of being superficial...but on the other, I don't think that's about looks per se so much as it's about him needing validation, and he would have the same issues with any trait in which he thinks he's very deficient and it's resulted in him being reviled.

I think at this point (still haven't finished all his chapters in ADwD, so maybe I'll be proven wrong), he thinks that he's intrinsically undesirable -- even to the point where he doesn't believe that Penny wants him, *as she's kissing him.* I think what finally did it is becoming a murderer -- I think now he thinks he's beyond all hope. Maybe he's right, who knows? So if Sansa showed up, I think he would be too ashamed to act as a husband in *any* way with her. When he tells Penny he can't kiss her because he wants to honor his marriage vows, and she believes him, he says something about how she must be absurdly naive to believe such an obvious lie. To me, that doesn't sound like someone who hopes any longer that he will have a loving wife or has any believe that it's possible. And god even knows what's going on with Sansa.

I thought that the Tyrion/Sansa wedding night revealed a bit of ugliness in Tyrion's character as well as considerable strength. It was only after Sansa took all her clothes off and stood naked and scared in front of him that Tyrion had a change of heart about consummating the marriage right there; he realized that she was still a child. But he didn't take the consummation off the table completely, he said (don't have the book handy right now) something waiting until they knew each other better before consummating the marriage. A better man would have, when Sansa offered dutifully (and because, I think, she didn't know what else to do at that moment) to undress, told her to keep her smallclothes or her shift on, and not undressed himself. And when Sansa actually showed some gumption and brought up the possibility that she might not ever want to consummate their marriage, Tyrion became quite annoyed. It is to his credit (and one can contrast Tyrion's behavior favorably with that of Khal Drogo) that he didn't force Sansa to have sex with her; but his physical desire for her, and mention that they would consummate the marriage later did increase Sansa's fear and torment; and it's not as if she wasn't enough of a trapped bird-in-a-cage already. I did admire Tyrion later, when he continued to put off the consummation despite Tywin's insistence.

I would love it if Sansa and Tyrion could reunite and actually make their marriage real; they could be a powerful and successful couple. I just don't think it will happen. The marriage will be annulled, possibly before Tyrion returns to Westeros. Sansa and Tyrion might be able to salvage some trust and friendship from it, though; and be allies in the future; Sansa won't forget that he was kind to her and did not hurt her nearly as much as he could have.

[littlebird_]

The marriage will be annulled, possibly before Tyrion returns to Westeros. Sansa and Tyrion might be able to salvage some trust and friendship from it, though; and be allies in the future; Sansa won't forget that he was kind to her and did not hurt her nearly as much as he could have.

This is where I feel their story might be leading or maybe where I hope it might be leading. Tyrion's journey is focused on his guilt and anger towards the women in his life and once and if he does figure out his issues, I think he will figure out that Sansa did not frame him. Sansa is already thinking of him more kindly. So in the end I think/hope that if they ever cross paths again they might be able to trust each other and form an alliance of some sorts.

As much as the marriage is a useful tool right now for stopping Littlefinger's plans and advancing our understanding of Tyrion's issues with women, I think there will also be something more to come of it, their marriage might not have united their two houses but what they have learned about each other during it might actually bring forth an alliance.

[rue721]

It was only after Sansa took all her clothes off and stood naked and scared in front of him that Tyrion had a change of heart about consummating the marriage right there; he realized that she was still a child. But he didn't take the consummation off the table completely, he said (don't have the book handy right now) something waiting until they knew each other better before consummating the marriage. A better man would have, when Sansa offered dutifully (and because, I think, she didn't know what else to do at that moment) to undress, told her to keep her smallclothes or her shift on, and not undressed himself. And when Sansa actually showed some gumption and brought up the possibility that she might not ever want to consummate their marriage, Tyrion became quite annoyed.

I agree that relative to an ideal person or even a real-life, modern person, Tyrion could have acted more noble than he did. For example, he could have reassured Sansa more thoroughly. But in comparison with the vast majority of the male characters in Ice&Fire, I think he went above and beyond in terms of his kindness to Sansa on their wedding night. He could have forced her to do basically anything, he could have threatened or beaten her, he could have humiliated her -- all those things have actually happened on the majority of wedding nights that we've actually "seen" in the books, seems to me. But he didn't.

Also, to me, the fact that he didn't humiliate her more than he did actually speaks volumes about his fundamental integrity. This is someone whose first time and first "wedding night" was in the middle of a gang-bang instigated by his father. And didn't that happen when he was about Sansa's age? His later experience with women seems to basically just be with paying for it, which could give a person a pretty skewed view of what's "acceptable" behavior, too. I would expect him to have a pretty skewed view of what constitutes cruelty or sexual humiliation, but he actually didn't push Sansa past pretty innocent limits. I think that shows a fair amount of sensitivity and god knows where he picked that up.

Also who wouldn't feel a lot of anger and despair if, on your wedding night, your new spouse stands there shuddering and saying she doesn't think she'll ever be able to even have sex with you, let alone love you? That's a pretty devastating thing to hear. I also think it says good things about him that he didn't take out his anger on Sansa, or even feel much anger. IIRC, he just basically said/thought: but there's still hope! and let it go? I have to admit, if I were him, hearing something like that would just eat at me.

Not to say that Sansa wasn't horrifically tormented. But jeez, when I think of what worst-case scenario could have been in terms of Tyrion's behavior, I'm like: WHOA, Tyrion's actually a fundamentally good person!

Even though he also does things like:

when he was allowing his wildlings to murder and loot in KL, and tore down all the homes of the smallfolk outside the city. He then went on to be very upset to learn that they blame him

In general, Tyrion's MO seems to be: bluff his way into trouble, tell himself it'll all turn out great anyway, it doesn't, get upset that others are upset at him, decide his failure/their feelings must have to do with some fundamental problem with him (such as his looks) instead of a temporary/fixable thing (such as his behavior), attempt to alter others' (perceived) contemptuousness of him by bluffing and other overcompensation.

In general, Sansa's MO seems to be: decide everything is going to be fantastic, be convinced over a string of horrible events that it really won't be, try to escape to a place where everything will be fantastic.***

I think that for Sansa, once a place or situation has proven bad, it's soured forever for her, because she still fantasizes about a place or person that won't be proven bad. So I think she wouldn't want to *ever* see Tyrion again if possible, and seeing him would be painful for her. I think seeing Sansa again would also be painful for Tyrion, because even though she'd likely be reacting to the horrific circumstances he reminds her of, and so she'd feel a need to escape to a better situation yet again...knowing Tyrion, he'd probably decide she's pained to see him because she knows he's fundamentally horrific (and not think about her overall situation at all). So I actually think a reunion wouldn't be too great for either one of them, though I don't think they hold much ill will toward each other.

***ETA:

though I think Sansa's current definition of "fantastic" is simply "safe."

[Wouter]

I think he would have exchanged her, but he was removed as Hand too quickly to accomplish all that he was trying to. He was also as much a victim in the marriage as she was. He didn't ask to be married to her. He objected when the idea was first put before him. What would Tywin Lannister have done to him if he had refused? I seem to recall there were some threats involved.

Tyrion could have chose to exchange her already in ACOK, if he had tried harder to reach (partial) terms with Robb Stark. Jaime for Sansa and maybe a few extra northern captives could have been possible (hey, Tyrion said that 1 Lannister is worth 2 northmen), and at least he could have tried. In ASOS, he does blame himself at one point for not exchanging her when he had the power to do so.

As for the marriage, Tywin wasn't going to execute him if he refused (after all he didn't consummate it either, in spite of Tywin's annoyance). Tyrion didn't have to be forced very hard, he was convinced to do it easily enough because he wanted it. He wanted Winterfell (admittedly only after Tywin had stressed once again that he would never, ever have Casterly Rock, despite being the legal heir) and he wanted a nice and pretty wife, and he was convinced he wasn't going to get said wife any other way. Tyrion did not seem to consider that Sansa might be totally freaked out by the whole thing, presumably he thought she would be eternally grateful for that one time he saved her from a savage beating and did not consider he was also holding her captive the whole time. Nor did he consider she might hate Lannisters with a passion. Or at least, he seemed to think that such feelings would quickly go away due to his irresistible charms or something?

I think the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion will be of importance later in the books, when Tyrion takes the impregnable Eyrie from dragon back. Tyrion does have a problem with the Eyrie, we know the Eyrie is impregnable from the ground, and you just know that the Eyrie will become involved in Westeros' problems sooner or later.

That can only happen if this conflict between LF and Tyrion is not resolved until spring, as the Eyrie is, in Sansa's words, only a cold white and deserted prison in winter. The Eyrie is uninhabited and will remain so until winter retreats. Sansa is at the castle called the Gates of the Moon now, with Nestor and Myranda Royce, at the foot of the mountain.

I think that the other side of this is that Sansa also occasionally thinks of Tyrion. And irrc she seems fond of him. Maybe she's not longing for the guy but there is a "wouldn't it be nice if Tyrion were here" wistfulness. And she seemed slightly concerned he was taking the fall for Joffry's death.

I also don't know how much she considers him a true Lannister (even though he probably is). Especially after he's killed Tywin. Unfortunately he doesn't really fit the part of Sansa's dream knight so I dunno.

Sansa doesn't believe in "dream knights" anymore by AFFC, if anything the closest thing approaching that for her by then is gruff, hard, unchivalrous and ugly Sandor Clegane. And for the time being, she seems to have a bellyful of marriage in general - she doesn't seem to be thrilled at all by the notion of marrying Harry the Heir, not at first at least.

Sansa thinks a few times of Tyrion in AFFC, and she was concerned he was taking the fall, but I didn't get the vibe she would want him to be there with her. She merely reflected he had helped her occasionally and she didn't want him to die; she spared similar thoughts for Dontos.

[inkasrain]

This is where I feel their story might be leading or maybe where I hope it might be leading. Tyrion's journey is focused on his guilt and anger towards the women in his life and once and if he does figure out his issues, I think he will figure out that Sansa did not frame him. Sansa is already thinking of him more kindly. So in the end I think/hope that if they ever cross paths again they might be able to trust each other and form an alliance of some sorts.

I agree that Sansa and Tyrion could theoretically make an interesting and quite potent political couple, if the fates aline that way. On a recent reread, I was really impressed by how cognizant Sansa is of Tyrion's kindness towards her once she's with Littlefinger, which makes me think that if their marriage were annulled (and the problem of Sansa's complete lack of power in their sexual relationship thereby remedied) that Sansa would be quite capable of seeing and working well with Tyrion's personal strengths.

[Wouter]

I agree that relative to an ideal person or even a real-life, modern person, Tyrion could have acted more noble than he did. For example, he could have reassured Sansa more thoroughly. But in comparison with the vast majority of the male characters in Ice&Fire, I think he went above and beyond in terms of his kindness to Sansa on their wedding night. He could have forced her to do basically anything, he could have threatened or beaten her, he could have humiliated her -- all those things have actually happened on the majority of wedding nights that we've actually "seen" in the books, seems to me. But he didn't.

That's a fair point, especially after a book where we see such joyful weddings as Jeyne and Ramsay - even Joffrey seems like a sweet, good natured husband compared to him. On the other hand, there are also decent marriages like Catelyn and Eddard (allthough it was arranged, they made it work very well indeed) or Garlan and his Fossoway wife.

Also who wouldn't feel a lot of anger and despair if, on your wedding night, your new spouse stands there shuddering and saying she doesn't think she'll ever be able to even have sex with you, let alone love you? That's a pretty devastating thing to hear.

But something Tyrion should have anticipated. Normally one first looks if the girl in question is actually interested in the marriage, or at least willing to go along for the sake of "family, duty, honor". Under the circumstances he took Sansa, a very intelligent man like Tyrion must have been blinded by the price he thought to see, to not notice just what a risk he was taking if he wanted a wife who would actually come to love him. He knew well enough what her circumstances were.

In general, Sansa's MO seems to be: decide everything is going to be fantastic, be convinced over a string of horrible events that it really won't be, try to escape to a place where everything will be fantastic.***

I think that for Sansa, once a place or situation has proven bad, it's soured forever for her, because she still fantasizes about a place or person that won't be proven bad. So I think she wouldn't want to *ever* see Tyrion again if possible, and seeing him would be painful for her.

***ETA:

though I think Sansa's current definition of "fantastic" is simply "safe."

Fair enough description of Sansa I think, allthough she does manage to make the Vale work for her and she probably would have managed the same for Highgarden (both of which seem to be pretty fabulous places anyway). So, up to a point she makes things fantastic for her by connecting quickly to people and places whenever possible, and she doesn't limit herself to "dreamsisters" like Margaery.

I think though, that if Sansa doesn't manage to escape up north (to a Bolton and Frey free Winterfell), she will end up back at KL one way or another. The king or queen who ends up taking power (temporary or permanently) will always be interested in Sansa and the annulment of her marriage also probably lies down there. I expect her to be confronted with that city and the Red Keep and even Baelor's sept sooner or later again.

[rue721]

But something Tyrion should have anticipated. Normally one first looks if the girl in question is actually interested in the marriage, or at least willing to go along for the sake of "family, duty, honor". Under the circumstances he took Sansa, a very intelligent man like Tyrion must have been blinded by the price he thought to see, to not notice just what a risk he was taking if he wanted a wife who would actually come to love him. He knew well enough what her circumstances were.

I agree that it was no shock that Sansa wasn't interested in consummating things with Tyrion, and of course she thought a loveless marriage was a sure outcome of their union. I think she had completely valid and understandable reasons for that, and they were all known to Tyrion.

But the idea of standing there naked and hearing your new spouse say anything like: "Not now. Not ever"...that's a pretty horrible rejection. I have to admit, I'd be really angry/humiliated hearing that, and I don't have near the hang-ups about my looks that Tyrion does. I think it speaks to Tyrion's strength of character that he didn't force her right then and there, just to take back control over the situation and to try and invalidate her revulsion toward him. Not that that would be *at all* acceptable in any kind of modern context, but within the context of the world they're in and the other male characters in the series, I think that's what actually would have been expected of him. That's certainly how Tywin tried to train him to behave.

I think Sansa had already lost hope that she would be treated well or would ever have a happy home-life at King's Landing -- she was at her lowest point, or nearly -- but meanwhile, Tyrion was on his way up. He had a great job that he was doing well at, and his father was marrying him very well. He was at the highpoint of his life so far and it was already more than he'd hoped for. I don't think it's crazy that he would be very optimistic about having a happy marriage, and meanwhile Sansa would be very pessimistic about it, even besides the way all the power and benefits were so heavily weighted on Tyrion/the Lannister's side in the marriage.

I guess that's another reason why I think that, if they were to meet now (and I'm not entirely done with ADwD, so please forgive me if this is already obsolete) Sansa would find Tyrion to be a painful blast from the past threatening to taint the safety of her current life, and Tyrion would feel ashamed to take up his reigns as Sansa's husband after falling so far (both in terms of his integrity and in terms of his position/accomplishments/hopes) since their marriage night.

And if either of them can get over it enough to be friends or allies, I would say that the likelier party would be Sansa. She's already beginning to have crushes again, which makes me think she hasn't given up on love or people being trustworthy or good. Since she knows Tyrion is *relatively* honorable, I think it would make sense for her to try to strike a deal with him, given that he's in the right place to make the kind of deal she needs at the time. Meanwhile, Tyrion has not only become more cynical and distrustful, he also has fallen to new depths in terms of what he knows about his own capacity for destruction. I think he'd feel ashamed and humiliated of what he's become, and wouldn't want to see his reflection in the mirror of Sansa's eyes. I also think it would be painful for him to remember his previous optimism toward her (and his life/himself in general).

And, in terms of them being more than distant allies, after his murder of Shae, I find it hard to believe Tyrion would ever want to give himself over to a real romantic relationship again, let alone to someone who is younger and more vulnerable than he is. I also find it hard to believe that out of all the men in the world, one who is closely tied to a horrific period in her young life is the one Sansa would ultimately choose.