[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Wouter]

Wouter, don't you think the last two referred to Shae as well? I thought it was also partially Tyrion's dawning realization that his father was right and even his whores didn't want him in their beds. So it was, IMO, bitterness that no woman would ever sexually desire him and he is constantly reminding himself of that.

I don't think any of the 3 quotes is about Shae;

The first "I don't seem to be able to keep wives for very long" - Shae was far, far longer with him than Sansa and especially Tysha were, and I suppose he is thinking about the last 2 (as wives is plural).

The second "all the girls cry when I kiss them" - seems a very specific reference to Sansa, Shae liked well enough to be kissed (and more) by Tyrion, and so did Tysha presumably, until the gang rape (and I doubt he kissed her then)

The third "most women prefer to be done with me as quickly as they can" - well, Shae stayed with him for a long time and had plenty of opportunity to bolt from him if she had wanted to. Sansa, OTOH, really had no choice to stay with him as she was a guarded prisoner (though sloppily so compared to poor Jeyne, admittedly), but she took her very first opportunity to get away from him. Can't really refer to Tysha either, given what happened to her.

That he calls Sansa "false" in his thoughts indicates, I think, that he hasn't come to terms with her running off just yet. He still seems to be stuck on "she said the vows, but wasted no time in showing what those vows meant to her" while not reflecting that she said those vows only because he and his family effectively forced her to say them at swordpoint. Tyrion is no Ramsay who treats his wives in the most disgusting way possibly, but he is very naive when he expects gratitude and even love to come from Sansa. He seems to totally ignore the difference between vows said (more or less) willingly, even in a political match like Eddard and Catelyn, and vows in the way Sansa, Jeyne and lady Hornwood were forced to say them.

I think Tyrion has managed to convince himself that talking with Sansa 30 seconds before the wedding and effectively offering her a choice between the bloody flux or greyscale (after Cersei had already chosen the disease of choice anyway) somehow meant she consented. He can be every bit as naive and self-delusional as Sansa and Penny can be at times.

[Alexia]

The second "all the girls cry when I kiss them" - seems a very specific reference to Sansa, Shae liked well enough to be kissed (and more) by Tyrion, and so did Tysha presumably, until the gang rape (and I doubt he kissed her then)

The third "most women prefer to be done with me as quickly as they can" - well, Shae stayed with him for a long time and had plenty of opportunity to bolt from him is she had wanted to.

Yes, but in the end he says to Shae "did you ever truly like my touch?" He finally realized that Shae is just as disgusted by the ugly dwarf as every one else is, that she "sees" ugly (which he previously questioned), and that she only was with him for monetary reasons. Which is why I saw those remarks as a sort of self-flagellation with regards to how all women see him, and bitterness with respect to those three.

That he calls Sansa "false" in his thoughts indicates, I think, that he hasn't come to terms with her running off just yet. He still seems to be stuck on "she said the vows, but wasted no time in showing what those vows meant to her" while not reflecting that she said those vows only because he and his family effectively forced her to say them at swordpoint. Tyrion is no Ramsay who treats his wives in the most disgusting way possibly, but he is very naive when he expects gratitude and even love to come from Sansa. He seems to totally ignore the difference between vows said (more or less) willingly, even in a political match like Eddard and Catelyn, and vows in the way Sansa, Jeyne and lady Hornwood were forced to say them.

I do agree with this; those vows were a complete joke. And doesn't Jaime say that an oath taken at swordpoint is invalid, and wonders what the High Septon would make of it?

I think Tyrion has managed to convince himself that talking with Sansa 30 seconds before the wedding and effectively offering her a choice between the bloody flux or greyscale (after Cersei had already chosen the disease of choice anyway) somehow meant she consented.

Not only that, but Sansa refused to make a choice between the two. What she said was that it was her duty to marry as the king commands. But I did begin to get the feeling that Tyrion knows that he did her wrong to a certain extent -- he still calls her his child-bride, for example. I could find it believable if he decided to get back at her in later books, but for now I think I'm leaning towards the idea that he will let her go without a fight.

[Son of Thunder]

Sansa was as distant to him as possibly one can be. If he misses that treatment he must be quite pathetic.

I'd say "sad" rather than "pathetic." Consider Tyrion's family. He grew up starved of love. Mother dead, father disgusted by him, sister hates him. He's so starved that the occasional scrap of brotherly affection that Jaimie tossed him was the most powerful relationship in his life. With that background, he is a textbook case of what psychologists call a "preoccupied attachment style." Poor self-concept (which he uses humor to unsuccessfully try to mask), high anxiety surrounding relationships, but can't stop himself from wanting love. Poor Tyrion can't stop himself from falling in love, even with a whore whom he knows for a fact wants nothing from him but money. It's no surprise that he would emotionally latch on to Sansa, based on the slimmest of tiny chances that she might eventually come to like him a little bit. If some woman out there were to genuinely love Tyrion, it wouldn't be a perfect relationship (he'd still have the self-concept and anxiety problems), but she would find him to be a husband whose devotion is stronger than Valyrian steel.

[Wouter]

Yes, but in the end he says to Shae "did you ever truly like my touch?" He finally realized that Shae is just as disgusted by the ugly dwarf as every one else is, that she "sees" ugly (which he previously questioned), and that she only was with him for monetary reasons. Which is why I saw those remarks as a sort of self-flagellation with regards to how all women see him, and bitterness with respect to those three.

There are more Tyrion quotes in ADWD to be found with more general bitterness about wives, but those specific 2 sentences are really aimed at Sansa IMO. Shae may have never truly liked his touch (allthough she didn't seem disgusted by him either, unlike the poor girl in Selhorys or Sansa, and we don't know for sure either way), but if so she certainly pretended to like it for a long time, and effectively enough to make Tyrion believe it. She didn't cry when he kissed her, in any case, while Sansa literally cried at her own wedding IIRC ("tears of joy", wasn't it?).

And Shae stayed way to long with him to say she preferred to be done with him as soon as possible. In one of the Sansa chapters, I remember she pointed out specifically that "mayhaps the king's hand has need of his [Tyrions] council" as if she was proud of him. I didn't get the impression she ever wanted to leave him as soon as possible, and was quite taken with the idea of eventually marrying him for real.

I do agree with this; those vows were a complete joke. And doesn't Jaime say that an oath taken at swordpoint is invalid, and wonders what the High Septon would make of it?

Jaime is right in a moral way I suppose (but Catelyn was way too good for him if he was never intending to keep that oath at all), but unfortunately officially Sansa wasn't forced to say anything (Cersei's threat isn't on record). Moreover, she was ordered to marry by the King and I doubt consent from the woman or even her family is at all needed then. Certainly, Sansa and LF don't go lightly over the vows, they are a serious obstacle (or protection possibly, depending on what Sansa wants re:LF's schemes).

Not only that, but Sansa refused to make a choice between the two. What she said was that it was her duty to marry as the king commands. But I did begin to get the feeling that Tyrion knows that he did her wrong to a certain extent -- he still calls her his child-bride, for example. I could find it believable if he decided to get back at her in later books, but for now I think I'm leaning towards the idea that he will let her go without a fight.

I think that left to his own devices, Tyrion would confront Sansa if possible about Joffrey's murder and he would probably complain about her leaving him like that too, but I don't think he would insist on continuing the wedding.

Dany may well have something to say about Sansa's marital status though; given her own experiences with being sold or marrying for purely political reasons, Dany could have very mixed feelings about forcing (or not) a politically convenient (for Dany, that is) match on Sansa (not necessarily with Tyrion, mind). On the one hand, she clearly resents this kind of practice (which isn't that far from slavery) but on the other hand she accepted it twice herself, the second time she even took the decision to go ahead herself.

[Alexia]

Moreover, she was ordered to marry by the King and I doubt consent from the woman or even her family is at all needed then.

The King is a minor child and doesn't even have the right to give or withhold consent to his own marriage. I still think there is potential to annul based on that, if we learn more about grounds for annulment.

It is an obstacle because it has to be undone before they can move ahead, which is a bit difficult with Sansa in hiding and wanted for crimes.

It would definitely be interesting to see Daenerys and Sansa meet.

[Silverin]

The King is a minor child and doesn't even have the right to give or withhold consent to his own marriage. I still think there is potential to annul based on that, if we learn more about grounds for annulment.

It is an obstacle because it has to be undone before they can move ahead, which is a bit difficult with Sansa in hiding and wanted for crimes.

It would definitely be interesting to see Daenerys and Sansa meet.

AQnd dont forget that everyone knows that they never consumated the marriage. So that alone is perfectly good and a legal cause for annuling it, especielly if Sansa doesn't like horsback riding as much as Margarey.

[jack merridew]

Sansa will end up with Edric Storm, who will cheat and drink and Sansa will begin a relationship with Bran and the whole cycle will start again

[Selmy]

I can see them meeting up again, but I doubt it would be a serious thing.

Tyrion seemed to legitimately like and pity Sansa. I don't think he'd try to make trouble for her.

Also, I think most people in the world would accept that she was forced into the marriage and as it was never consummated, it doesn't mean that much.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

What she said was that it was her duty to marry as the king commands.

At the wedding, Joffrey said "I'm your father now," because, as King, had the right and power to give her away in marriage. But Joff really wasn't King because he wasn't Robert's trueborn son. If Cersei's children are ever declared illegitimate, Sansa may have additional grounds for an annulment.

I also wonder if Tyrion retains any rights or property (including his wife) under Westerosi law after he was found guilty of Joff's murder in a trial by combat. Perhaps his marriage could be considered dissolved?

[Wouter]

The King is a minor child and doesn't even have the right to give or withhold consent to his own marriage. I still think there is potential to annul based on that, if we learn more about grounds for annulment.

The King's order was approved/prepared by the King's Hand and King's regent though. There is no doubt this is legally OK, outside switching kings that is. Yet, even Stannis accepts the marriage effectively as valid as he calls Sansa "lady Lannister" to Jon.

No doubt Dany (or Aegon, should he take KL) could set this matter straight easily enough, but either Targaryen may have (and probably will have) their own plans for Sansa and Starks have good reason to be afraid of that family. Sansa will probably try to avoid any more contact with kings and queens for as long as she can (unless maybe the situation in the north takes a turn for the good and she may want to go kneel to Stannis then - though even Stannis promised Jon in his letter that he would make a match for "Arya").

Annulment is possible but as we know, it requires consent from the religious authorities, and the High Septon is another guy I wouldn't want Sansa to come near to.

[Wouter]

I also wonder if Tyrion retains any rights or property (including his wife) under Westerosi law after he was found guilty of Joff's murder in a trial by combat. Perhaps his marriage could be considered dissolved?

It obviously isn't considered dissolved by Sansa herself, nor by Littlefinger, nor by Stannis (of all people!), apparently not by Jon either as he doesn't press Stannis on the issue, nor by Robb when he disinherited Sansa, and Tyrion himself also seems to consider himself married still (allthough admittedly it is convenient for him).

Sansa herself also stands accused of the same crimes Tyrion was convicted off, so this angle wouldn't really work anyway.

[Alexia]

The King's order was approved/prepared by the King's Hand and King's regent though. There is no doubt this is legally OK, outside switching kings that is. Yet, even Stannis accepts the marriage effectively as valid as he calls Sansa "lady Lannister" to Jon.

And for right now it is. But I think there might be grounds for annulment on that basis by the appropriate religious authorities providing the Lannisters are no longer in power. Also, you get into the whole Joffrey illegitimate, Robert Usurper conversation here. I am also not sure that what they did was legally okay, but more a matter of there was nobody who could or would stop them.

The current High Septon does present a real problem but I sort of expect him to die after making some more trouble. Actually, I wonder what will happen if Aegon takes KL (or if he will).

[Zaida]

I think Sansa could do a lot worse than to end up back with Tyrion. Marrying Edric Strom would be a prime example of doing worse. Considering the time period these people are supposed to be living in, Tyrion has been downright gallant and sweet toward Sansa. He could have demanded his rights as her husband and forced her to consumate. He didn't. He tried to treat her with dignity and respect - which is more than she'd get from a lot of other men. I think the reason he is thinking of Sansa as false is because he might think she really did poison Joff, and let him take the blame for it.

Sansa is a smart girl. I think she might be exposed to enough reality that she might start to appreciate the fact that she could do a lot worse than staying married to Tyrion Lannister. I would like to see them reunited, and grow to be at least fond of one another. In the world they live in that's about the best that one can hope for.

[LordManderBlee]

I think Stannis' opinion can be discounted because he is an a**hole who would, in Sansa's place, have died rather than cooperate in any way. Anyway, there's a lot of talk about specific annulment loopholes and stuff but in the end what it comes down to is who is in power, because they're going to do whatever they want anyway and ignore the fine print. if it's lannisters Sansa's screwed, if it's stark's or littlefingers she gets annulled, and if it's anyone else it's more up in the air

[Silverin]

Why does everyone assume the current High Septon would mean problem? If they inspect Sansa and see that she is still a virgin it is proof that the marriage was never consumated. He is a relifious fanatic but I dont see why he wouldnt annule the marriage. Since there is proof they never consumated it, and that is the key factor. Not the thing how legal Joff was or not.

About the she could do worse than tyrion.

Edric Storm is a horrible example, he would actually be way better than Tyrion. He is a sweet kid, who does not judge others by appearance that is why he becomes such good friends with Shirreen.

Which cant be said about Tyrion. As much as he whines that others cant see through his appearance and cant accept him he cant do that either when it comes to others.

[littlebird_]

Anyway, there's a lot of talk about specific annulment loopholes and stuff but in the end what it comes down to is who is in power, because they're going to do whatever they want anyway and ignore the fine print. if it's lannisters Sansa's screwed, if it's stark's or littlefingers she gets annulled, and if it's anyone else it's more up in the air

I agree, the legality of annulment is not as central as who is in power. Whoever is in power will interpret legal issues based on their interests. Sansa is in serious danger right now because the Lannisters are still in power, if by TWOW Aegon does take the Iron Throne I am sure an arrangement can be made. Since its pretty certain that by the end of the series the Lannisters won't be in power than there is going to be a way out of the marriage.

Right now the marriage is necessary for the plot because firstly it enables Sansa if she wants to to get out of marrying someone else and secondly it creates a problem in Littlefinger's plans. So at the moment it is something that works in her favor. Littlefinger probably assumed that Tyrion would be dead by now so even if he intends to marry Sansa to Harry that plan can not work as it is. With the arrival of Aegon perhaps he will be more willing to establish an alliance with them because through a change of power he can get Sansa freed from the charges against her and the marriage.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Why does everyone assume the current High Septon would mean problem? If they inspect Sansa and see that she is still a virgin it is proof that the marriage was never consumated. He is a relifious fanatic but I dont see why he wouldnt annule the marriage. Since there is proof they never consumated it, and that is the key factor. Not the thing how legal Joff was or not.

there also the rumours flying around that she's a warg ( funnily that one is true true), a sorceress and a poisoneress (this one will come true) .

not to mention that the she is "tree-worshipper" and that he is not fond of women

[Salander]

As for this having slightly more cultural/historical precedent than "Days of Our Lives"... Richard III (still Richard of Gloucester and regent at the time) had his late brother Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Wydville declared invalid on the grounds that one of them (can't remember which!) was married before. Edward and Elizabeth already had kids at this point, and the boys were declared illegitimate. This post-mortem annulment of Edward's marriage had major political and historical implications. Of course, Richard's claim should be seen as suspect, since the illegitimacy of the boys conveniently paved his way to the throne, but even so.*

(*It's also been pointed out on these boards that Ned was a kind of failed Richard III figure; I tend to agree with this idea, especially because Martin has said that Robert himself was based on Edward IV.)

Elizabeth Woodville was married before and widowed. Richard III claimed that Edward IV was betrothed before he married Elizabeth Woodville and in those days, the betrothal was almost as binding as the marriage itself. This would have made, if proven, Edward and Elizabeth's marriage invalid. There were also claims that Edward IV was, himself, illegitimate. There is some speculation about that, because his father was overseas and some say the numbers don't add up. Edward's father, however, never questioned his mother on Edward's birth and most put it down to Richard Plantagent having to get out of the country quickly and there being some secrecy around his departure.

I agree with you, I think there are certain shared characteristics between Ned and Richard III as well. There are certain elements in Stannis that remind me of Richard III too.

As for Sansa and Tyrion: since annulment is allowed in Westeros, I don't see their marriage as insurmountable. LF will need some of the High Septons on board (as other posters have pointed out), but it could be done. The major fly in the ointment is Sansa being a fugitive.

[Wouter]

I think Sansa could do a lot worse than to end up back with Tyrion. Marrying Edric Strom would be a prime example of doing worse.

Why? Seemed a sweet enough boy in the little we saw of him. And AFAIK he isn't accused of fathering bastards yet, unlike Harry the Heir.

I think the reason he is thinking of Sansa as false is because he might think she really did poison Joff, and let him take the blame for it.

Probably, Tyrion really did suspect Sansa. Allthough I wonder how he thinks she arranged for all that to happen, including the dwarfs and everything. But I guess he may have an inkling about LF being involved somehow.

I certainly agree Tyrion will want to find out the truth about Joffrey's murder and I would be very surprised if he and Sansa never have a confrontation about this.

Sansa is a smart girl. I think she might be exposed to enough reality that she might start to appreciate the fact that she could do a lot worse than staying married to Tyrion Lannister.

In some ways yes, as Tyrion is personally kind to her (well, with those 2 big exceptions about not exchanging her as a hostage and marrying her) and very intelligent as well. But, as long as Tyrion is associated with Lannisters that's an impossible thing to swallow for Sansa (if he fights on Dany's side against his family that might help I suppose). There is the physical revulsion to consider; an honest reaction from Sansa's side which she may not be able to "get over it" even if she should stop associating him with everything that is wrong in her life.

And while Tyrion obviously did appreciate Sansa in some ways, he never thought much of her intelligence and that will have to change as she isn't near as dumb as he thinks she is (actually she fooled him easily enough when she didn't want to be guarded by Tyrion's men, and again with her visits to the Godswood - Tyrion never had a clue she was plotting to escape all the time). And likewise, Sansa couldn't really appreciate how clever Tyrion is as he never told her anything about the things he did and why he did them. They were living completely separate from each other (except in the physical sense).

there also the rumours flying around that she's a warg ( funnily that one is true true), a sorceress and a poisoneress (this one will come true) .

not to mention that the she is "tree-worshipper" and that he is not fond of women

Just so.

In addition, she is accused of regicide. One could expect the High Septon to arrange a trial for her to determine her guilt in all of those issues. OK, maybe he would see political gain in embracing a northern girl to win her to the Seven (it is also known that Sansa did her fair share of praying in septs, besides her treeworshipper reputation), but taking a gamble with this guy is dangerous. Look at what he did with Cersei for sleeping around (not for her other offences, which are much more serious) or what he did to Margaery based on a few false accusations. I don't expect him to love Starks on principle; northmen are not very dear to the faith in general.

[Alexia]

Though he has shown himself to be willing to negotiate (Tommen's blessing) and if Sansa agrees to renounce the old gods in favor of the Seven, this might be something the HS would be willing to take her up on. Especially with Stannis up North promoting Red God-ism.

In ASOS Tyrion indicated that he did not believe Sansa planned everything on her own. He knew that someone was in league with her, but he just didn't know who.