[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[FacelessGirl]

You are right, it is actually a mean statement. Sorry :blush: But in the ASOIAF universe, I think we can safely assume that almost no one would run the risk of bearing a dwarf child, since people seem to firmly believe that your looks define your personality. The only exceptions seems to be Pennys family and curiously enough Tywin (This fact is the only thing that reedems Tywin IMO, he must really have loved Joanna. A man so proud he wipes out entire families, but he still keeps his malformed son alive. I am certain Randall Tarly would have killed Tyrion in the cradle if he had been his son.). So the women Tyrion has been with are highly motivated to not become pregnant, whether by using Moon tea or aborting the fetus some other way. Not to mention that since they are prostitutes, they are experts at this. I don't think we have seen any examples of women taking advantage of having a rich mans bastard (women having the child of a rich man, and living of the child support money), at most the men will take the child and leave the woman nothing (think of Obara). I see no reason why Tyrion should not be fertile.

Btw, there must be some effective contraceptive/abortificant in the ASOIAF universe if King Robert managed to only father 16 children, despite all his efforts.....

Oh, you had no need to apologize, Maidens Fantasy. ;)

I was under the assumption that dwarfism was a rare deformity in this world much like ours. I have a friend whose mother is a little person and he is of normal stature. Tyrion may have fathered children with the many whores he slept with but I doubt all of them would be dwarfs. That seems a bit unrealistic and cruel to me. Yes, Randyll Tarly does seem the type to do such a thing, unfortunately. Personally, I've always felt that way deep down Tywin did care for Tyrion, just had one hell of a time admitting it to himself. Who will know at this point.

Also wouldn't it be more courteous if guys pulled a Lancel and ejaculated on the woman's belly? Would saves a lot of time (and perhaps money) on making moon tea and what not. :rolleyes:

[littlebird_]

I don't quite agree. Tyrion knows firsthand how Joffrey has treated her, and he knows how much she hates Lannisters. It's quite perplexing he can think for even one second that Sansa may want to be in Margaery's place.

Tyrion is very wrong in his estimation of Sansa at this point, though. He is completely fooled by Sansa when she tells him she doesn't want to be in the tower of the hand because of the "ghosts" of the Starks household (in reality because Cersei's guards are far more sloppy than Tyrion's and she wants to be able to move around) and when Sansa goes to the Godswood, he thinks it is excessive piety (in reality she is preparing her escape).

If anything, Sansa pulled the wool over his eyes and was very cynical about the whole relationship with Tyrion right from the start. She never forgot what her eventual goal was, and it wasn't to make Tyrion happy.

This again is part of the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic that surprises me but also somewhat amuses me because in her limited way Sansa does outplay the Lannisters. She spends all that time scheming to get out of King's Landing and lies to all of them and none of them actually suspect it. Tyrion's perceptions of the marriage probably play a large role in this, he sees it as something that can be worked on and wrongly believes that if he weren't a dwarf they wouldn't have these problems whereas for Sansa its all about escaping. Again an interesting situation because Sansa acts more practical and realistic about the situation than Tyrion ever does. She doesn't fool herself into thinking that because Tyrion is kind this marriage might work, she doesn't fool herself into thinking that because Tyrion is kind he might help her escape, she is very clear about what she wants and that is to get out of King's Landing and away from the Lannisters and she knows Tyrion won't help her with that.

Tyrion is very intelligent when it comes to politics but when it is his personal life he no longer is able to read people, he takes everything at face-value; when Sansa is praying all he thinks about is; is she also praying for me to die, there is no other possibility for Tyrion or anyone else for that matter. I assume it is because he doesn't have very genuine interactions with people to begin with, he has his books but the knowledge that comes from them can not be applied to interpersonal relations so he fails to understand them at times. Whereas with Sansa, her main knowledge comes from interacting with people in a way that charms them or fools them so as to make them believe in her. So they have very different approaches to events. Sansa is more about interpersonal relationships and how to get out of situations by using her courtesy whereas Tyrion is more about strategy and the bigger picture. In the end, Tyrion can not understand something as obvious as Sansa wanting to escape and Sansa can not see the bigger picture and realize that Dantos might be helping her for other reasons.

[Alexia]

I was under the assumption that dwarfism was a rare deformity in this world much like ours. I have a friend whose mother is a little person and he is of normal stature. Tyrion may have fathered children with the many whores he slept with but I doubt all of them would be dwarfs. That seems a bit unrealistic and cruel to me.

I looked this up at one point during a discussion on the board; there is a 50% chance of the child inheriting dwarfism if one parent has it and a 75% chance of inheriting it if both are.

[Maia]

I looked this up at one point during a discussion on the board; there is a 50% chance of the child inheriting dwarfism if one parent has it

There are different forms of dwarfism, IIRC, and Tyrion'd doesn't seem to be quite fitting the one you describe. He has relatively long and muscular arms, for one, which allow him to walk on his hands and do cartwheels, as well as use an axe and strangle people. Dinklage, who has the condition you describe, would be unable to do any of it. So, it is up in the air re: Tyrion's hypothetical kids, but certainly nothing any woman who has choice would be willing to risk.

Also, there would be a double whammy with Tyrion's bastards: if the child is normal, how do you prove, to Tyrion, that he is the father? And if it is a dwarf, Tyrion is unlikely to be pleased and reward you.

Speaking of women profiting from bearing noble bastards - we don't know, really. Nobles who publicly claim their children may also reward the women in some way. And those who don't, may still support the child and by extension the mother, like Roose Bolton. IIRC, Oberyn was angry at Obara's mother for not informing him that he had a child and intending to make Obara follow her own trade, so he just took her away.

[FacelessGirl]

There are different forms of dwarfism, IIRC, and Tyrion'd doesn't seem to be quite fitting the one you describe. He has relatively long and muscular arms, for one, which allow him to walk on his hands and do cartwheels, as well as use an axe and strangle people. Dinklage, who has the condition you describe, would be unable to do any of it. So, it is up in the air re: Tyrion's hypothetical kids, but certainly nothing any woman who has choice would be willing to risk.

Also, there would be a double whammy with Tyrion's bastards: if the child is normal, how do you prove, to Tyrion, that he is the father? And if it is a dwarf, Tyrion is unlikely to be pleased and reward you.

Speaking of women profiting from bearing noble bastards - we don't know, really. Nobles who publicly claim their children may also reward the women in some way. And those who don't, may still support the child and by extension the mother, like Roose Bolton. IIRC, Oberyn was angry at Obara's mother for not informing him that he had a child and intending to make Obara follow her own trade, so he just took her away.

I don't think many women would try to cash in with their bastard children from nobles. Its already enough dishonor having the child, now you're trying to get over with it? And as far as we know, Roose just sent the first Reek to help Ramsay's mother deal with him, and we can guess how well that turned out... also what do we know about the other Sand Snakes? One had a merchant mother, and I think a septa so its not like they have to resort to whoring to survive.

[Wouter]

Tyrion did propose to exchange Sansa for Jaime and Robb refused him. Suggesting that Tyrion should have just let her go is completely unrealistic, IMHO.

Remember that Edmure didn't back Cat's play - KL didn't get any word of her trying to exchange Jaime. Tyrion didn't even know that Jaime was freed until his brother turned up in KL, after Joff's death.

I am not suggesting he should have just let her go, like Catelyn did with Jaime. He could have done way more to get an acceptable exchange for her, though, he didn't try teribly hard in ACOK as he was focused more on winning the war (and exchanging captives on his terms, not terms midway between both camps).

Robb offered to exchange Sansa (and Arya, who the Lannisters didn't have) for Willem Lannister and Tion Frey. To be sure, this was part of terms that were overall very favorable to the Starks, but Cleos Frey asked if he would agree to this exchange at least and Tyrion said NO. Tyrion was more interested in keeping the negotiations, such as they were, going while the Lannisters gained time to raise more armies.

His counter proposal was this:

Tyrion glanced toward Sansa, and felt a stab of pity as he said, “Until such time as he frees my brother Jaime, unharmed, they shall remain here as hostages. How well they are treated depends on him.”

The part about "how well they are treated depends on him" is a rather biting addition, considering just how Sansa has been treated (and Arya is already believed likely to be dead by Tyrion at the time). Sansa heard him say this.

It's not unreasonable from his POV by any means, but it would hardly endear him to her. Tyrion and Sansa were most definitely on opposite sides and when it comes down to it, she was like a "salt wife" to him.

And yes, Tywin definitely would have threatened Tyrion/Sansa with just allowing Joff to have his way with her unless they consummated. And/or bribed her with allowing her to leave KL for the Rock once she was pregnant.

That would have been some bribe for Sansa. Tyrion already proposed her to make an extended visit to the Rock (I don't think he needed Tywin's explicit permission for that, surely he can visit his home with his well-guarded wife?), and her reaction wasn't enthusiastic. It's literally the lion's den.

I just noticed this part in Sansa's wedding ceremony:

“Here in the sight of gods and men,” he said, “I do solemnly proclaim Tyrion of House Lannister and Sansa of House Stark to be man and wife, one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever, and cursed be the one who comes between them.”

Martin chose to give the entire text for this part, which can be an indication this is somewhat important. "Cursed be the one who comes between them" - is Littlefinger now cursed? I hope so.

[FacelessGirl]

I just noticed this part in Sansa's wedding ceremony:

Martin chose to give the entire text for this part, which can be an indication this is somewhat important. "Cursed be the one who comes between them" - is Littlefinger now cursed? I hope so.

That would be delicious plot twist, but I'm not getting my hopes up. ;)

[the Scorpion Knight]

I just noticed this part in Sansa's wedding ceremony:

Martin chose to give the entire text for this part, which can be an indication this is somewhat important. "Cursed be the one who comes between them" - is Littlefinger now cursed? I hope so.

he's also lord of Harrenhall and without heirs.

so basicly IMO: yes his time on earth is running short.

[Alexia]

I don't think many women would try to cash in with their bastard children from nobles. Its already enough dishonor having the child, now you're trying to get over with it? And as far as we know, Roose just sent the first Reek to help Ramsay's mother deal with him, and we can guess how well that turned out... also what do we know about the other Sand Snakes? One had a merchant mother, and I think a septa so its not like they have to resort to whoring to survive.

I think that having a noble bastard would actually be something that would raise a woman's status in that society. I'm also not sure how negatively bearing a bastard is perceived by other commoners. It only makes sense that if a nobleman makes you pregnant, you'd want him to support the child and yourself to a better standard than you've lived so far, and eventually have your child be squired out if a boy or married to a knight if a girl. I would even think that some girls would actively want to become pregnant with a noble's bastard for the lifechanging potential that it should have.

[Alexia]

he's also lord of Harrenhall and without heirs.

so basicly IMO: yes his time on earth is running short.

Ha! Given the fates of the last few lords of Harrenhal, we can only hope.

[the Scorpion Knight]

which leads to the following question:

Who'll be the warden of the riverlands after his death?

Edmure again?

[Wouter]

This again is part of the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic that surprises me but also somewhat amuses me because in her limited way Sansa does outplay the Lannisters. She spends all that time scheming to get out of King's Landing and lies to all of them and none of them actually suspect it. Tyrion's perceptions of the marriage probably play a large role in this, he sees it as something that can be worked on and wrongly believes that if he weren't a dwarf they wouldn't have these problems whereas for Sansa its all about escaping. Again an interesting situation because Sansa acts more practical and realistic about the situation than Tyrion ever does. She doesn't fool herself into thinking that because Tyrion is kind this marriage might work, she doesn't fool herself into thinking that because Tyrion is kind he might help her escape, she is very clear about what she wants and that is to get out of King's Landing and away from the Lannisters and she knows Tyrion won't help her with that.

Exactly, if Sansa had no hope of escaping and felt she couldn't get out of this one she would have behaved differently. She would have attempted more, in a desperate way, to see the good in Tyrion just as she made herself see the upsides in marrying Willas. She would probably have accepted Tyrions proposal to go to Braavos - out of Joff's clutches at least.

But Sansa doesn't want this marriage (which is actually the final act of war by the Lannisters in the war between them and the Starks, to finish it by taking the north) and she has a credible alternative, so she is focused on that. Even Cersei, who knew she visited the Godswood in secret, never suspects she is working on her escape. Sansa realises Tyrion won't just let her go as he has made clear a number of times that he works in the interests of his family ("reasons of state" as he tells Sansa for the reason he didn't tell her about her marriage beforehand), and so she ignores him when possible and just waits for the day she can get away from KL and everybody in it.

It's interesting to note that Robb and Catelyn also take the marriage very darkly. Robb is convinced the Lannisters will kill Sansa as soon as she has given birth to her first child by Tyrion, and I don't blame him for thinking that (I'm not even sure Tywin wouldn't arrange for that to happen, maybe after a second kid instead). It's the way people expect the Lannisters to work, and Sansa as mother of a Lannister heir (for the north) probably wouldn't sit to well with Tywin; he wants the loyalty of those heirs to his family, not to Sansa's.

Maia, are you saying you think Tyrion and Sansa would not have a 50% chance of dwarf children because of Tyrion's particular form of dwarfism? What would the actual chance be, then?

[FacelessGirl]

I think that having a noble bastard would actually be something that would raise a woman's status in that society. I'm also not sure how negatively bearing a bastard is perceived by other commoners. It only makes sense that if a nobleman makes you pregnant, you'd want him to support the child and yourself to a better standard than you've lived so far, and eventually have your child be squired out if a boy or married to a knight if a girl. I would even think that some girls would actively want to become pregnant with a noble's bastard for the lifechanging potential that it should have.

This world seems to put a lot of stock in honor and reputation, including the smallfolk, and having a child out of wedlock with someone of a higher station than you seems like social pariah territory to me. And even if the noble were to acknowledge you and the child, its not like his family will accept you with open arms and might actively persuade him to give you nothing. Either way it seems quite isolating.

[Alexia]

This world seems to put a lot of stock in honor and reputation, including the smallfolk, and having a child out of wedlock with someone of a higher station than you seems like social pariah territory to me. And even if the noble were to acknowledge you and the child, its not like his family will accept you with open arms and might actively persuade him to give you nothing. Either way it seems quite isolating.

In what way the smallfolk? The woman Roose Bolton impregnated came to him with his child. Mya Stone's mother came to Robert with her child. Do you have an example of when smallfolk were focused on their own honor is such a way? Women have been maintained as mistresses since time immemorial, and their bastard children acknowledged and maintained. Even Samwell Tarly was sure that his family would give Gilly a job and take care of his bastard son's future. And it sounded like that fisherman's daughter was bragging around about sleeping with Ned Stark.

Maia, what kind of dwarfism do you think Tyrion has? IMO, the description doesn't fit any one exactly but seems closest to achondroplasia (what Dinklage has). I'm not sure that anything about achondroplasia prevents muscle from building in the arms but I also tend to think that Tyrion's warrior antics are not very realistic.

[FacelessGirl]

In what way the smallfolk? The woman Roose Bolton impregnated came to him with his child. Mya Stone's mother came to Robert with her child. Do you have an example of when smallfolk were focused on their own honor is such a way? Women have been maintained as mistresses since time immemorial, and their bastard children acknowledged and maintained. Even Samwell Tarly was sure that his family would give Gilly a job and take care of his bastard son's future. And it sounded like that fisherman's daughter was bragging around about sleeping with Ned Stark.

Maia, what kind of dwarfism do you think Tyrion has? IMO, the description doesn't fit any one exactly but seems closest to achondroplasia (what Dinklage has). I'm not sure that anything about achondroplasia prevents muscle from building in the arms.

Do any of Robert's bastards know they're his? Besides Edric and I think the whore in Stoney Sept. The fisherman's daughter was a rumor, wasn't it? Ramsay's mother went to Roose but all she got was Reek and told to never speak of Ramsay's "rights" if I recall correctly, which she did.

[Alexia]

Do any of Robert's bastards know they're his? Besides Edric and I think the whore in Stoney Sept. The fisherman's daughter was a rumor, wasn't it? Ramsay's mother went to Roose but all she got was Reek and told to never speak of Ramsay's "rights" if I recall correctly, which she did.

The whore (Bella) doesn't know for certain; she just pumps up the idea. Mya Stone knows, and Robert was providing support (if anonymously) to Gendry. I am pretty sure Ramsay's mother was also getting financial support.

I really need to reread the section, my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I had the impression that it was a rumor because the girl was bragging about sleeping with Ned (which may or may not be true). I did think that she encouraged the rumors at the very least.

[littlebird_]

Exactly, if Sansa had no hope of escaping and felt she couldn't get out of this one she would have behaved differently. She would have attempted more, in a desperate way, to see the good in Tyrion just as she made herself see the upsides in marrying Willas. She would probably have accepted Tyrions proposal to go to Braavos - out of Joff's clutches at least.

I agree, if Dantos was not in the equation Sansa would have adopted to the situation somehow, probably accepting proposal to go to Braavos or possibly trying to form a relationship with Tyrion or maybe trying to find another way to escape. She did prefer the Tyrell proposal to outright escaping but escaping was better than being married to a Lannister so she's able to prioritize and change her plans depending on the circumstances.

It's interesting to note that Robb and Catelyn also take the marriage very darkly. Robb is convinced the Lannisters will kill Sansa as soon as she has given birth to her first child by Tyrion, and I don't blame him for thinking that (I'm not even sure Tywin wouldn't arrange for that to happen, maybe after a second kid instead). It's the way people expect the Lannisters to work, and Sansa as mother of a Lannister heir (for the north) probably wouldn't sit to well with Tywin; he wants the loyalty of those heirs to his family, not to Sansa's.

I found it quite sad that her family considers her forever lost when the news of the marriage arrives and its probably a right reaction, Tywin would not let a Stark continue living and influencing his rule in the North though maybe he would Sansa since everyone seems to underestimate her.

[FacelessGirl]

The whore (Bella) doesn't know for certain; she just pumps up the idea. Mya Stone knows, and Robert was providing support (if anonymously) to Gendry. I am pretty sure Ramsay's mother was also getting financial support.

I really need to reread the section, my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I had the impression that it was a rumor because the girl was bragging about sleeping with Ned (which may or may not be true). I did think that she encouraged the rumors at the very least.

Yeah I read all the books in one big blur in anticipation for A Dance with Dragons. I was for certain in a Sansa pov it stated Mya didn't know her father, only that he was a big, jolly fat man. Which to be fair is Robert but she was never told the jolly man's name, and it didn't matter once he stopped visiting her. I remember Bella because I was weirded out that she almost slept with Gendry. :stunned: And my memory is also foggy on the sailor's daughter, too.

I'll have to reread for Ramsay's mother getting support, too. My impression was Roose didn't think she was a good screw and after she brought the kid to him he did what he could to keep them from sight, or something. Hmm.

[Alexia]

Yeah I read all the books in one big blur in anticipation for A Dance with Dragons. I was for certain in a Sansa pov it stated Mya didn't know her father, only that he was a big, jolly fat man. Which to be fair is Robert but she was never told the jolly man's name, and it didn't matter once he stopped visiting her.

But everyone else in the Vale knows, Sansa is told by her maid and looks closely at Mya afterwards to confirm it. She also thinks that Mya could have good marital prospects if Robert had acknowledged her (which he apparently neglected to formally do).

And Robert wasn't a fat man when Mya was born or in her memories.

[trio]

Trio, I am sorry that it offends you......I don't understand why someone would be outraged by people discussing an annulment as a story possibility, when the Lannisters clearly indicate at the beginning of the marriage that this is a concern for them. It is a perfectly legitimate possibility within the context of the world and story.

OK, relax on the righteous indignation. :P

Every. single. time. I have seen Tyrion & Sansa's name even in the same thread (any thread, not just this one) it's only about another coupla posts before someone starts feverishly talking about annulment. It's like, an annulment is almost expected at this stage. Almost a given. I was asking why?? Why all the excitement and anticipation about an annulment? What's the appeal?

Nobody's answered though.

And I don't understand it. Yeah, it's a possibility. But the level of discussion goes waaaay beyond a random possibility. It's like - nobody is even considering any other ending for Sansa. She'll get an annulment (somehow), and she'll either marry someone nice, or she'll be single forever in WF. But the annulment is the critical part.

And yeah, anything may happen. But Lysa never considered it. Littlefinger has never considered it. Sansa has never considered it. Tyrion has never considered it. None of the people who would benefit from it, in other words, has ever considered it!

So I ask what's the deal with the annulment obsession and I'm none the wiser.