[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[rue721]

The thing is, Sansa has no way of knowing from one day to the next what Tyrion will decide to do with her. He told her he wouldn't sleep with her, and that's great, but what if he changes his mind? What if he gets sick of the entire court laughing at them, or he comes to their bed drunk one night and takes her anyway? Tyrion holds 100% of the power in their relationship, so Sansa has no choice but to don her "ladies' armor" and push him away with everything she has.

In giving Sansa a tiny allusion of power by saying he'd wait for her consent before consummating their relationship, I think Tyrion actually offered Sansa the *only* opportunity to exert power that she had in her *entire* life at KL. So I actually think that by saying he'd wait for her to say yes, he made it nearly impossible for her to say yes -- after all, who could willingly give up on the single, tiny smidgen of control that she has, and especially in such a frightening, horrible world as the one Sansa lives in at KL? Also, I would think she'd get some satisfaction out of making Tyrion -- and especially *Tywin* -- squirm over the lack of consummation. Holding out was the only kind of revenge she can take on the Lannisters, so why wouldn't she take it?

I think Tyrion tends to take things fairly personally, so of course he assumed that the largest obstacle to Sansa's love was about him as an individual, but I think it was much more about Sansa reacting in horror to her life at KL, the loss of her family, and not wanting to become one with the Lannisters.

Though, even in a best-case scenario, I don't know how Tyrion could possibly give Sansa the life she'd want -- one in which, at the least, she's not part of a family of vipers who all thrive on court politics and require a certain amount of physical luxury for optimal health. After all, when she fantasizes about creating a family with another man, a key point is that she's *not* fantasizing about staying in KL but in a position of greater power, she fantasizes about being with someone who can help her create a pastoral life filled with children and dogs and barges, and which has nothing to do with money and politics or court life at all.

Sansa's state of mind in terms of marriage seems pretty clear to me, which is why it's so off-putting that Tyrion would make her rejection of him so much about him as an individual. But I guess something I personally need to remember about Tyrion is that he's maybe relatively naive about women. Reading his chapters in ADwD, I'm struck by how much he seems to miss Shae, and it makes me wonder -- was that the closest relationship he's had with a woman? The thing about whores is that I would think they're not all that emotionally available. Maybe he's actually too inexperienced to get a read on what's going on in a woman's head? Even a very young woman like Sansa? Not that a woman's thinking is necessarily *so* different from a man's, but a woman's social position is obviously going to be pretty different, and a young lady's social position is going to be very different from Tyrion's especially, which is going to lead to a very different way of thinking. Also it's not like Tyrion has a wealth of emotionally close and insightful male relationships to draw from, either. So I think there might be an unexpectedly large amount of naivete there that I tend to forget about.

This actually is not a bad idea, and I think she could get away with it. Lysa asked herself if Tyrion was incapable.

One reason I'd like to see this is because I wonder what Tyrion would do. I can't imagine just going along with it when your wife says that you're incapable of performing your duties as a man, but on the other hand, I don't know how he'd prove otherwise. And trying to publicly prove he's capable might be even more degrading than keeping quiet. Jeez, that man is so lucky Sansa isn't a huge bitch. It'd be kind of hilarious to see him go to Cersei about advice on that one, though. For some reason, I think she'd be able to come up with a pretty good scheme.

On the other hand...maybe Tyrion wouldn't even care? Or at least, he wouldn't care enough to really do anything about it? I honestly don't know. Ever since he rode that pig on the Stinky Steward, I have been completely confused about what he would find degrading.

[Alexia]

Maybe he's actually too inexperienced to get a read on what's going on in a woman's head? Even a very young woman like Sansa? Not that a woman's thinking is necessarily *so* different from a man's, but a woman's social position is obviously going to be pretty different, and a young lady's social position is going to be very different from Tyrion's especially, which is going to lead to a very different way of thinking. Also it's not like Tyrion has a wealth of emotionally close and insightful male relationships to draw from, either. So I think there might be an unexpectedly large amount of naivete there that I tend to forget about.

:lol:

Yeah, I think Tyrion is pretty damn naive himself when it comes to what Sansa is thinking. One moment that stands out for me in particular is after Joffrey's wedding at the wedding feast. Sansa is very nervous, thinking about her planned escape, and she has no appetite. Tyrion believes that she is wishing that she was in Margaery's place and thinks that even a child should have better sense. :shocked: He really has absolutely no idea of how Sansa feels about anything, at this point. And I like your take on it because I never thought of it as naivete but that might be a good description.

[Dio Forel]

:lol:

Yeah, I think Tyrion is pretty damn naive himself when it comes to what Sansa is thinking. One moment that stands out for me in particular is after Joffrey's wedding at the wedding feast. Sansa is very nervous, thinking about her planned escape, and she has no appetite. Tyrion believes that she is wishing that she was in Margaery's place and thinks that even a child should have better sense. :shocked: He really has absolutely no idea of how Sansa feels about anything, at this point. And I like your take on it because I never thought of it as naivete but that might be a good description.

That is something that makes their relationship very intriguing. Naivete on both parts. Even though Tyrion has had overwhelming amounts of experience with whores, his experiences with serious relationships are minimal and traumatic to boot.

But in Tyrion's defense I wouldn't think his gauge on Sansa's reaction at the Wedding Feast qualifies as naivete. Sansa has paraded herself around as a typical young girl in that respect, blushing about Joff when she first meets him as well as Loras when she sees him. It is more ignorance than naivete in that regard. Sansa has grown a lot internally since she has gone through so much internal struggle with basically having 2 completely traumatic and unorthodox interactions to deal with continuously as her experience with the opposite sex. Joff and Sandor. Relationships like that can drastically sober somebody and ground them to reality really quickly.

I feel like her life as the "Lady" is dead, just as her direwolf with the same name. Now she is on her own journey just like every other Stark. Only her's is more of the political scheming nature.

[inkasrain]

I actually would really like to see Sandor Clegane reintroduced into Sansa's life just to see how she reacts to him with her burgeoning crush, the memory of being kissed, and the way she associates him with sex. And to be honest, I feel a bit sad that her character is now so cynical about men and relationships. Naive Sansa was frustrating but also very sweet (see above quotes about Willas) and I miss her.

I agree, meeting up with the Hound again would offer some really interesting possibilities for Sansa. Would she have grown past him, or grown toward him? Would she feel prepared for a sexual encounter with him, or would he be a stranger in the flesh? Ideally, I could see the right combination of circumstances allowing Sansa to blend the best of the survive-and-thrive traits she has developed as Alayne with the gentle sweetness that she held on to for so long. There's a lot to mine with Sansa, period, and even more so where Clegane is concerned. Hopefully we'll get a generous portion of Sansa in TWOW; hers is a unique perspective, and I'm feeling a little starved for what she brings to the table.

In giving Sansa a tiny allusion of power by saying he'd wait for her consent before consummating their relationship, I think Tyrion actually offered Sansa the *only* opportunity to exert power that she had in her *entire* life at KL. So I actually think that by saying he'd wait for her to say yes, he made it nearly impossible for her to say yes -- after all, who could willingly give up on the single, tiny smidgen of control that she has, and especially in such a frightening, horrible world as the one Sansa lives in at KL? Also, I would think she'd get some satisfaction out of making Tyrion -- and especially *Tywin* -- squirm over the lack of consummation. Holding out was the only kind of revenge she can take on the Lannisters, so why wouldn't she take it?

Exactly-- and worse, it became a double-edged sword, as Sansa had no way to know whether Tyrion would keep his word, giving her motivation to be as politely "off-putting" as possible. I go back and forth on how culpable Tyrion was for framing the topic of sex as "not now, but probably some day" (for all either of them knew, this marriage was for the long haul) but for such a clever person, and one familiar with the way people with little power cling to what they are given, he was remarkably insensible to the consequences of his promise.

His best option, so far as I can see, would have been to go through with the ceremony and then move Sansa out to a manse somewhere and visit her as little as possible. For all of Tywin's strength, one thing he couldn't do was force them to consumate their marriage, and moving Sansa out of the city seems to me like a good way for Tyrion to manage the dueling demands of "she must be your wife" and "I refuse to sleep with her."

[Lord Damian]

I wrongly thought Tyrion was going to the Vale but he still might. His buddies in the mountain clans think highly of him and might come to support him should he arrive with forces to take the Vale. A Lannister always pays his debts and he is pissed at his treatment in the Vale. He might want to make sweetrobin fly.

[rue721]

His best option, so far as I can see, would have been to go through with the ceremony and then move Sansa out to a manse somewhere and visit her as little as possible. For all of Tywin's strength, one thing he couldn't do was force them to consumate their marriage, and moving Sansa out of the city seems to me like a good way for Tyrion to manage the dueling demands of "she must be your wife" and "I refuse to sleep with her."

Maybe I'm underestimating Tyrion's strength of character, but I think it would be a pretty tough thing for him to give up on all the dreams *he* has for love, marriage and a family life, just when it's close enough to touch. Sansa's not the only one wishing for a picturesque Lord & Lady life, or to be loved.

That's why I actually think it's impressive that when she strikes down the idea that she'll ever love or even want to sleep with him, he takes it pretty well and only tries to get a "maybe, one day" out of her. Yes, for Sansa, the fact that he won't take the idea of ever consummating off the table is a torment. But how can he? Maybe he's a better person than I am (entirely possible) but I would have a *very* hard time not trying to tell myself at that point that one day I won't be completely disgusting *to my spouse.* At that point, Tyrion was also at a very high position in court, doing a good job, and was getting along relatively well with everybody. To hear that you're still revolting at that point has got to be pretty tough, because it's like -- what else can you do? How much better can you be?

Just like Tyrion needed to get out of his head for a second and consider that Sansa's horror of him wasn't about him per se but about what he represented, Sansa needed to get out of her head for a second and consider what *she* represented to him. But they were sort of at an impasse, because they're fighting over the tiniest scrap of (sexual) power possible -- whether and when to consummate a marriage *that has already happened* and happened largely *against their will.*

In terms of Tywin, though, I would think that it's a little bit of revenge for Tyrion, too, to refuse to consummate. I mean, god, he's still fixated on what happened with Tysha. If there's one thing that I'm sure he'd have liked to prove to his father it's that he won't fall into that trap again, and that Tyrion is the one who controls who he sleeps with (not Tywin). If only Sansa hadn't been such a young kid when all that was going down, it would have been kind of funny to see them mock Tywin by making a show over not consummating. But maybe it's for the best they didn't, since knowing Tywin, he might have found some kind of way for Tyrion to rape Sansa just to show them both who's boss (and wow that would be horrifying).

(Thought then at least there would be absolutely no case for annulment).

[Raksha the Demon]

no i don't fault sansa for wanting one man over another. i merely point out that someone considering marriage doesn't usually use puppies as a factor.

Actually, puppies would be a factor for me at any age; I could never marry someone who disliked dogs, and I love puppies; and I think Sansa would have been especially drawn to the scenario of cute puppies and a gentle husband in Highgarden because she not only missed having a family, she missed Lady; and they did have dogs (probably puppies occasionally) at Winterfell when she was growing up. Not that I'd ever marry someone who kept a puppy mill, but a responsible breeder, or someone who was expecting a well-cared for litter, that would be the icing on the cake.

[Raksha the Demon]

Maybe I'm underestimating Tyrion's strength of character, but I think it would be a pretty tough thing for him to give up on all the dreams *he* has for love, marriage and a family life, just when it's close enough to touch. Sansa's not the only one wishing for a picturesque Lord & Lady life, or to be loved.

That's why I actually think it's impressive that when she strikes down the idea that she'll ever love or even want to sleep with him, he takes it pretty well and only tries to get a "maybe, one day" out of her. Yes, for Sansa, the fact that he won't take the idea of ever consummating off the table is a torment. But how can he? Maybe he's a better person than I am (entirely possible) but I would have a *very* hard time not trying to tell myself at that point that one day I won't be completely disgusting *to my spouse.* At that point, Tyrion was also at a very high position in court, doing a good job, and was getting along relatively well with everybody. To hear that you're still revolting at that point has got to be pretty tough, because it's like -- what else can you do? How much better can you be?

Just like Tyrion needed to get out of his head for a second and consider that Sansa's horror of him wasn't about him per se but about what he represented, Sansa needed to get out of her head for a second and consider what *she* represented to him. But they were sort of at an impasse, because they're fighting over the tiniest scrap of (sexual) power possible -- whether and when to consummate a marriage *that has already happened* and happened largely *against their will.*

In terms of Tywin, though, I would think that it's a little bit of revenge for Tyrion, too, to refuse to consummate. I mean, god, he's still fixated on what happened with Tysha. If there's one thing that I'm sure he'd have liked to prove to his father it's that he won't fall into that trap again, and that Tyrion is the one who controls who he sleeps with (not Tywin). If only Sansa hadn't been such a young kid when all that was going down, it would have been kind of funny to see them mock Tywin by making a show over not consummating. But maybe it's for the best they didn't, since knowing Tywin, he might have found some kind of way for Tyrion to rape Sansa just to show them both who's boss (and wow that would be horrifying).

(Thought then at least there would be absolutely no case for annulment).

Sansa was all of 12 years old at the time of her marriage to Tyrion; and very much a traumatized child. She has survived by keeping her innermost feelings to herself most of the time (except when the Tyrell women coerced her into talking - and wasn't that a masterful Good Cop, Bad Cop routine from the Queen of Thorns and Margaery); and expecting her to be able to see things from Tyrion's point of view might be a stretch, especially since she doesn't know the pressure he is under from Tywin.

If Sansa and Tyrion hadn't been suspected of Joffrey's murder and Sansa hadn't fled into Littlefinger's welcoming arms, I have no doubt that Tywin would have eventually run out of patience with Tyrion. Tyrion might have been able to put off the consummating of the marriage for a few more months, but I think that Tywin would have put his foot down within a year of the marriage. He could have said that either Tyrion would get Sansa pregnant, or he'd let Joffrey have his way with the girl; after all, I don't think Tywin cares that much which Lannister sired Sansa's child, as long as it's one of his line, so there can eventually be a Lannister son ruling Winterfell. Of course, they still had the fake Arya as a weapon held in reserve; but I'm sure that Tywin would have preferred that a descendant of his hold Winterfell rather than someone of the Bolton line. If Tyrion had told Sansa that the marriage must be consummated, I think she would have assented, regarding it as her marital duty; but the act itself, unless they were both incredibly lucky, could have inflicted some heavy emotional damage on Sansa (and not been particularly pleasurable for Tyrion, since he is not, or at least was not, a rapist by inclination).

Could it be possible that Tyrion is sterile? It's odd that with all the whores he's patronized, no one has ever presented him with a baby; unless they've all had access to moon tea or were scared of Tywin.

[voodooqueen126]

Sansa was all of 12 years old at the time of her marriage to Tyrion; and very much a traumatized child. She has survived by keeping her innermost feelings to herself most of the time (except when the Tyrell women coerced her into talking - and wasn't that a masterful Good Cop, Bad Cop routine from the Queen of Thorns and Margaery); and expecting her to be able to see things from Tyrion's point of view might be a stretch, especially since she doesn't know the pressure he is under from Tywin.

If Sansa and Tyrion hadn't been suspected of Joffrey's murder and Sansa hadn't fled into Littlefinger's welcoming arms, I have no doubt that Tywin would have eventually run out of patience with Tyrion. Tyrion might have been able to put off the consummating of the marriage for a few more months, but I think that Tywin would have put his foot down within a year of the marriage. He could have said that either Tyrion would get Sansa pregnant, or he'd let Joffrey have his way with the girl; after all, I don't think Tywin cares that much which Lannister sired Sansa's child, as long as it's one of his line, so there can eventually be a Lannister son ruling Winterfell. Of course, they still had the fake Arya as a weapon held in reserve; but I'm sure that Tywin would have preferred that a descendant of his hold Winterfell rather than someone of the Bolton line. If Tyrion had told Sansa that the marriage must be consummated, I think she would have assented, regarding it as her marital duty; but the act itself, unless they were both incredibly lucky, could have inflicted some heavy emotional damage on Sansa (and not been particularly pleasurable for Tyrion, since he is not, or at least was not, a rapist by inclination).

Could it be possible that Tyrion is sterile? It's odd that with all the whores he's patronized, no one has ever presented him with a baby; unless they've all had access to moon tea or were scared of Tywin.

If they had consumated the marriage, then this could have be good for the Starks in the long term.

I believe that Rickon will side with Stannis (for obvious reasons) just as the real Duke of Norfolk and Earl of Northumberland sided with Richard III. If Tyrion does end up being hand of Queen Daenerys of the great big war marchines, then Sansa could've used her position as "Wife of the Hand" to save Rickon at the very least. Then should Tyrion die, the Dowager Lady of Casterly Rock (and mother of the Lord of Casterly Rock) would not hesitate to use all the gold in the Westerlands to replenish her family... Of course the side affect of this would be that Sansa would be as sexually screwed up as Margaret Beaufort (atleast as Phillipa Gregory portrays her).

Thankfully this didn't happen as I would hate the thought of Sansa ending up with Tyrion (much as I love Tyrion).

[Wouter]

Honestly? Tyrion & Sansa have barely thought of each other in the year since they last met. At this stage I'd be staggered if they even met again.

I don't see how they can avoid meeting, unless one of them dies relatively early (which I very much doubt - Tyrion is well plot-armoured and like him, Sansa is one of the original POVs). If nothing else, Tyrion will want to find out what happened at the Purple Wedding and how Sansa managed to escape. And when he returns to Westeros, it will very probably be at the side of Dany and she'll want to meet Sansa at some point.

But guys, please - for the love of all that's holy - give up the annulment thing! What series are we reading where that's remotely likely!? All these legal hoops! IF the High Septon dies, IF Cersei dies, IF Sansa can prove she's a virgin (fun for her!), IF the marriage to Tysha is somehow still valid, IF Sansa can basically do it by post so stays hidden.....

Those legal hoops are mostly unnecessary, or no legal hoops but political hoops. The only things that are needed for annulment (as per Martin's own words) are non-consummation of the marriage (which would probably require Sansa getting the Margaery treatment, though her word may be accepted if a more pliable High Septon could be installed) and agreement from either the High Septon or a Council of Faith (not sure what that is, I guess a major meeting of top leaders from the faith). That's all. The marriage to Tysha isn't needed, nor does she have to prove Tyrion is impotent or anything like that; any non-consummated marriage can be put aside if there is a political/religious will to do so. Which means it will likely come down to what Dany wants in the end, as I expect her to be the power by then and what she wants will pretty much happen.

Sure, Cersei will need to be removed as a factor for this to happen but that's a given anyway. Anyone here think Cersei has even a snowballs chance in hell to still cling to power by the end?

actually tyrion is not very happy about his "reward".

even his private thoughts do not sound very excited about the prospect:

Sansa Stark. Soft spoken sweet smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of the boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet

.

why does tyrion go along with it? his father tells him (perhaps for the first time?) of the numerous houses he approached to broker a marriage on tyrion's behalf, all without success. and then his father tells him:

You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell

.

that hardly sounds like he was lusting after her or winterfell. i think he probably believed this might be his only chance to have what any highbord lord was groomed to expect to have.

Initially Tyrion has grave doubts about the idea, much like Sansa isn't terribly enthusiastic about Willas either. However, as Sansa convinces herself Willas will be good for her, Tyrion does get swayed by the sweetener presented to him by Tywin: "you might win Winterfell" - and get that pretty wife you always wanted in the process.

My point is, Tyrion eventually is happy about his reward, while he still thinks Sansa will go along with it and come to love him and admire him and they will have children. He is certainly not unhappy to marry such a pretty girl, and to get Winterfel (potentially) in the bargain as well. Tywin hardly had to force his hand for that.

according to tywin, this could not happen because she would have been matched to a blackwood or a mallister to shore up alliances against the lannisters. or she would have been married to a manderly or umber. let's not forget there is a war going on and tywin plays to win.

Tywin was not in KL when Tyrion had his chance to exchange Sansa; when he was the acting hand, he had the power to let her go. Hell, Catelyn had far less power when she decided to let Jaime go but she did it anyway.

But you're right, there is a war going on. An argument particularly unlikely to get Sansa to understand/admire/love Tyrion. Just imagine:

"Hey Sansa, I would have exchanged you for my brother but there is a war going on between our families and you might just have been used to help your own family instead of mine. So, couldn't do that, but now that my family has just about finished wiping out yours completely I am going to forcibly marry you so my family can also take the ancestral castle and land of yours - in the meantime, I'll keep you well guarded so you can't escape. No hard feelings, okay? We're at war, after all."

"Eh, can anyone explain why she doesn't love me!???" :dunno:

sansa is indeed still very immature at this stage of the story. just note her reaction to being told she was marrying tyrion:

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas. I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge and sons named Eddard, Bran and Rickard

.

considering all she's been through at this point of her story, her thoughts are still very much as they were when she wanted to marry joff and have beautiful blond babies. so yes, she is still very immature. i actually think it's littlefinger that is forcing her to grow up. she then remembers what ser dontos tells her: tyrells or lannisters, it makes no difference. its not me they want, only my claim, and agrees to marry tyrion with the hope of escaping king's landing completely.

I disagree completely. It's Tyrion who is being immature here, by failing to understand/predict Sansa's feelings and reactions, allthough he is more than intelligent enough and has sufficient info to do so. Tyrion was wildly unrealistic by genuinely expecting Sansa to love him or even accept him, and by blaming it on his looks rather than on the circumstances of the wedding. Sansa is only 12 at this time; she would be just out of primary school. For such a young girl, she actually reacts very mature already in her proposed marriage to Willas (whom she has never met and she knows he's a cripple, but she manages to convince herself it's for the best anyway) and in her marriage with Tyrion she shows dignity and iron self-control, given her age and circumstances. Her thought process is entirely different to when she was still taken with Joffrey; that she was looking forward to children with Willas is not a crime, surely? Isn't that much of the point for the proposed marriage in the first place!?

I think we can, in the same vein, call Jeyne Poole immature too for not being happy about her marriage to Ramsay; after all she has come up in the world, Ramsay is a healthy, powerful guy and a great lord and Theon assures her repeatedly that he is kind and good (unless you anger him, but she of course shouldn't do that).

About what Dontos told her: this seems very self-serving to me. Dontos was payed to get her out of KL in the way LF wanted, and the plans of the Tyrells were about to cross those of LF. No doubt the Tyrells were interested in her claim, but this marriage definitely also had advantages for Sansa, Willas genuinely needed a wife and it quite probably would have worked well enough, and this marriage wasn't forced upon her. The Tyrell women effectively negotiated it with Sansa herself, a very different proposition to what Tyrion and his family did.

[A Maidens Fantasy]

Could it be possible that Tyrion is sterile? It's odd that with all the whores he's patronized, no one has ever presented him with a baby; unless they've all had access to moon tea or were scared of Tywin.

In another thread someone said "When Tyrion rides into town, the price of Moon tea triples" :laugh:

So I think the only time he would have had a chance to find out would have been with Tysha. If the sailors wife theory is true, then he could have a daughter - Lanna. If she had been a dwarf, then I would say that was proof that he is fertile.

[FacelessGirl]

In another thread someone said "When Tyrion rides into town, the price of Moon tea triples" :laugh:

That is equally mean and hilarious at the same time. ^_^

Reminds of something an old teacher once told a male friend of mine: if a woman doesn't want your baby, you aren't a real man. Huh.

[Maia]

Tywin was not in KL when Tyrion had his chance to exchange Sansa; when he was the acting hand, he had the power to let her go.

Tyrion did propose to exchange Sansa for Jaime and Robb refused him. Suggesting that Tyrion should have just let her go is completely unrealistic, IMHO.

Remember that Edmure didn't back Cat's play - KL didn't get any word of her trying to exchange Jaime. Tyrion didn't even know that Jaime was freed until his brother turned up in KL, after Joff's death.

Anyway, re: Tyrion being starved for love and relationships in general, it seems to me that his uncles and aunt, not to mention Jaime, did love and support him. They couldn't completely shield him from Tywin, of course, but it isn't like Tyrion really had nobody.

I always thought that the terrible trio being so indifferent about their extended family, that actually had more to do with their upbringing and apparently was more loving and nurturing than their parents, was kind of sociopathic.

And yes, Tywin definitely would have threatened Tyrion/Sansa with just allowing Joff to have his way with her unless they consummated. And/or bribed her with allowing her to leave KL for the Rock once she was pregnant.

[Alexia]

And yes, Tywin definitely would have threatened Tyrion/Sansa with just allowing Joff to have his way with her unless they consummated. And/or bribed her with allowing her to leave KL for the Rock once she was pregnant.

I think it is more likely that Tywin would have taken her away from Tyrion himself, gotten the marriage annulled, and given her to another Lannister. There are a lot of them out there.

[Alexia]

In another thread someone said "When Tyrion rides into town, the price of Moon tea triples" :laugh:

I'm not sure how many women actually have access to moon tea. Jaime assumes that Pia is barren, not that she is using moon tea. It seems to be brewed only by maesters (and Asha Greyjoy), and whores and other common women don't have access to maesters.

[Wouter]

I genuinely think Sansa's idea of a happy ending would be to go home to Winterfell, never leave again, and be Lord Rickon's maiden sister all her life. Which is highly unlikely to happen.

I also think that's what Sansa would want to happen at this stage. Allthough this could still change, once she is a bit older and those traumatic events get distanced a bit by time.

In the Vale, Sansa is already half attempting to couple Mya and Ser Brune, which is actually quite endearing.

If I were Sansa, though, my argument for the annulment would be that Tyrion is physically incapable as a husband. Cruel, I know, and obviously it's not actually the case.

The downside is that it would ruin any chance of an alliance between Tyrion and Sansa afterward, so that's kind of a Plan Z as opposed to a Plan A, imo. But might be worth trying, if Sansa is truly desperate for an annulment.

Unnecessary I think. Sansa only needs to prove the marriage wasn't consummated, and it can be swept aside. I'm not sure Tyrion even needs to consent, as long as the non-consummation isn't disputed.

Interesting sidenote from the asoiaf Wiki for Tyrion:

Spouse Tysha (annulled), Sansa Stark (annulled)

That's premature I fear! Nobody told Sansa nor Tyrion, in any case...

Maybe this is what Sansa thought was happening, but it's not what Tyrion was doing. He didn't want to marry her either. He tells her before the marriage to just say a word and he'll have it called off (although he would have to give her to a different lannister, but still showing that he's willing to let her go himself).

If Tyrion really didn't want to marry, he only needed to say NO to Tywin. It was meant as a reward, if Tyrion really couldn't be convinced to do it (but Tywin and Kevan did manage to get him to see the benefits for himself) they would have used another Lannister instead. Kevan had Lancel and another son was in the process of being released by the Starks, and there is also Daven and co. It's a large family.

Tyrion indeed tells her, right before the marriage, that he will call off the marriage - if she wants to marry another Lannister instead of him. As I mentioned earlier, it's much like he tells her she will have to be infected with Greyscale, but if she doesn't want that she can get the bloody flux instead if that disease is more to her liking. Isn't that nice that she gets to choose? :ack:

And when Tyrion tells her that, the King and his entourage have already ordered her, in no uncertain terms, to marry Tyrion (which is also what she answers him - that she will do as the King commands, not that she accepts him or even that she chooses him over Lancel or random Lannister #4). Cersei has told her she will be dragged kicking and screaming to the wedding, if need be. When Tyrion talks to her and pretends to offer her a choice, Cersei had already chosen for her and she can't resist.

IMO Tyrion offered her this false choice only to make him feel better about himself - so he could say to himself he didn't force her to marry, she made the choice herself - and as a last-ditch attempt to make Sansa accept him, thinking she'd appreciate it. But why would she? Why did he wait until the very last moment, instead of going to talk with her as soon as he started thinking about going with the marriage? What kind of husband treats his prospective wife-to-be that way?

Did he know about Willis? I'm not under the impression that he did. The only starks presumed to be dead at this time are ned, bran, and rickon, maybe arya. Robb is still alive and fighting (not saying the lannisters havn't done anything wrong here, but just pointing out her family was not "wiped out"). I don't think he necessarily thought she would love him and be loyal, he just gets annoyed that she's constantly putting on her courtesy armor. The whole point of his character is that he wants a woman to want him even though he is what he is. That's why he's constantly paying whores, because they at least pretend to want him. He obviously is not forcing her to do anything :smug:

As Alexia said, he did know about Willas. And one of the most undesirable consequences of her forced marriage for Sansa was that she was thrown out of the Tyrell group right away - where before Sansa went out riding with Margaery and got lessons in playing the harp and so, I got the impression that once with Tyrion that all or most of that stopped instantly and she just sat there in the Red Keep.

At the point he marries her, the Lannisters are already directly responsible for the death of her father, the suspected death of Arya, the disappearance of Jeyne Poole and the death of the entire Stark household in KL, including septa Mordane, Vayon Poole and Rory Cassel. Indirectly, they brought the Starks in the vulnerable position that also got Bran, Rickon and everybody in Winterfell killed (as far as she knows, and Tyrion knows). Shortly after they are married, her last brother (but Jon) and her mother and much of the Stark levies join them. At that point, Sansa has lost everyone she ever cared for prior to KL, except for Jon who is way out of reach for her anyway.

As for her courtesy armor, Tyrion on the one hand thinks Sansa is still way too naive (as he indicates in his thoughts to Penny in ADWD, and for example also when he wonders if Sansa would want to marry Joff in place of Marge), but on the other hand he expects her to trust him. He knows Sansa went to Cersei, he knows she pleaded for mercy for her father, he knows how she was rewarded. Yet he expects her to trust him. Why would Sansa share her thoughts and feelings with those who are at war with her?

Wow, lots of great thoughts here - Fringe Theory: Is it possible that Sansa successfully learns guile and intrigues from LF and subsequently out plays him with Tyrion as an ally? At some point she may find out how his lies helped trigger the War of the 5 Kings...along with her family's ruin.

I do expect Sansa to find this out at some point. I hope she escapes LF or gets rid of him well before Tyrion returns though, since it doesn't look like Tyrion and Dany are going to arrive in Westeros any time soon. May not happen until the last book.

The thing is, Sansa has no way of knowing from one day to the next what Tyrion will decide to do with her. He told her he wouldn't sleep with her, and that's great, but what if he changes his mind? What if he gets sick of the entire court laughing at them, or he comes to their bed drunk one night and takes her anyway? Tyrion holds 100% of the power in their relationship, so Sansa has no choice but to don her "ladies' armor" and push him away with everything she has.

Good point, Tyrion could change his mind any day and Sansa just had to hope he wouldn't.

Allthough the "courtesy armour" was there mostly because she didn't trust him one yota, after learning her lessons regarding Lannisters (and regarding careless tongues). She wasn't planning to stay with him either, the plan was always to escape and she was holding out until that day. Maybe there was also an element of making sure he would come to regret the marriage as much as she did.

[Wouter]

I think Tyrion tends to take things fairly personally, so of course he assumed that the largest obstacle to Sansa's love was about him as an individual, but I think it was much more about Sansa reacting in horror to her life at KL, the loss of her family, and not wanting to become one with the Lannisters.

Good point, one of the most irritating things about this marriage is that they made her into a Lannister. Stannis calls her "lady Lannister", her family disinherits her, the Tyrells drop her for the most part, she has to eat and feast with the Lannister family and in a careless moment Tyrion expects her (for a split second) to be happy visiting Casterly Rock. This is a serious bit of humiliation for Sansa, to be made a member of the family who destroyed her own. And all this so those can claim the lands of her family as well.

Though, even in a best-case scenario, I don't know how Tyrion could possibly give Sansa the life she'd want -- one in which, at the least, she's not part of a family of vipers who all thrive on court politics and require a certain amount of physical luxury for optimal health. After all, when she fantasizes about creating a family with another man, a key point is that she's *not* fantasizing about staying in KL but in a position of greater power, she fantasizes about being with someone who can help her create a pastoral life filled with children and dogs and barges, and which has nothing to do with money and politics or court life at all.

To be fair, Highgarden is a court as well, as is the Gates of the Moon. Sansa does like court life very much, just not King's Landing or Casterly Rock, for obvious reasons (and I suppose Pyke and the Dreadfort and the Twins wouldn't be high on her list of places to visit, either).

On the other hand...maybe Tyrion wouldn't even care? Or at least, he wouldn't care enough to really do anything about it? I honestly don't know. Ever since he rode that pig on the Stinky Steward, I have been completely confused about what he would find degrading.

I think Tyrion would want to talk with Sansa about annulment, if she indicated she wanted that. If she was determined to get rid of it, I don't think he would resist that. Unless there were strong political reasons to maintain the marriage, in which case those behind said politics would make sure any attempt by Sansa to annul it would be blocked, regardless of whatever arguments she would use.

[littlebird_]

And when Tyrion tells her that, the King and his entourage have already ordered her, in no uncertain terms, to marry Tyrion (which is also what she answers him - that she will do as the King commands, not that she accepts him or even that she chooses him over Lancel or random Lannister #4). Cersei has told her she will be dragged kicking and screaming to the wedding, if need be. When Tyrion talks to her and pretends to offer her a choice, Cersei had already chosen for her and she can't resist.

This is something I always find interesting because Tyrion chooses to ignore what is implied here. Sansa's general stance here should tell him that she doesn't choose Lancel or any other Lannister rather than marrying him because to her they are all the same. So her stance against him is not because he is a dwarf but because he is a Lannister, if she wanted a better looking Lannister she could have said no to Tyrion and been forced to marry another, she just didn't want a Lannister and didn't differentiate between which one she was forced to marry.

rue721 has provided some interesting insight into Tyrion and I think it does come down to Tyrion's own insistence that everything bad that happens to him has to be because of his appearance. For a man who is as intelligent as him, he can not even with all the evidence in front of him realize that Sansa's position is not about him specifically but about his family.

As for her courtesy armor, Tyrion on the one hand thinks Sansa is still way too naive (as he indicates in his thoughts to Penny in ADWD, and for example also when he wonders if Sansa would want to marry Joff in place of Marge), but on the other hand he expects her to trust him.

I think his thoughts about women demonstrate how naive he is still about women and love and relationships. He just refuses to see that there might be other factors involved in their approach towards him than his appearance, in that sense he is more obsessed with how he looks than anyone else interacting with him. Especially with respect to Sansa, he has so many conflicting opinions, he still thinks she was naive but then he knows she escaped and he believes she killed Joffrey yet there is no real attempt to make sense of that duality.

Interesting sidenote from the asoiaf Wiki for Tyrion:

Spouse Tysha (annulled), Sansa Stark (annulled)

Maybe the marriage did get annulled but we just didn't see it yet because there was no POV from the Vale :D

The thing is, Sansa has no way of knowing from one day to the next what Tyrion will decide to do with her. He told her he wouldn't sleep with her, and that's great, but what if he changes his mind? What if he gets sick of the entire court laughing at them, or he comes to their bed drunk one night and takes her anyway? Tyrion holds 100% of the power in their relationship, so Sansa has no choice but to don her "ladies' armor" and push him away with everything she has.

Very true, he might be kind one day but another day he could come home angry and drunk and force himself on her, there is no guarantee that he won't. Tyrion is the one with all the power in that relationship, as much as Tyrion does think of himself as being disadvantaged and he is in many ways in his life, in that particular relationship he is not. He has all the power and Sansa knows and fears that.

Good point, one of the most irritating things about this marriage is that they made her into a Lannister. Stannis calls her "lady Lannister", her family disinherits her, the Tyrells drop her for the most part, she has to eat and feast with the Lannister family and in a careless moment Tyrion expects her (for a split second) to be happy visiting Casterly Rock. This is a serious bit of humiliation for Sansa, to be made a member of the family who destroyed her own. And all this so those can claim the lands of her family as well.

If I remember correctly, she does think of that at one moment: 'they've made me a Lannister', to her that is the worst thing one can become and it does actually result in her family disinheriting her and her Tyrell circle abandoning her. I don't think she knows her family disinherited her though but it would be interesting to see her reaction if she ever finds out.

[Wouter]

But in Tyrion's defense I wouldn't think his gauge on Sansa's reaction at the Wedding Feast qualifies as naivete. Sansa has paraded herself around as a typical young girl in that respect, blushing about Joff when she first meets him as well as Loras when she sees him. It is more ignorance than naivete in that regard.

I don't quite agree. Tyrion knows firsthand how Joffrey has treated her, and he knows how much she hates Lannisters. It's quite perplexing he can think for even one second that Sansa may want to be in Margaery's place.

Tyrion is very wrong in his estimation of Sansa at this point, though. He is completely fooled by Sansa when she tells him she doesn't want to be in the tower of the hand because of the "ghosts" of the Starks household (in reality because Cersei's guards are far more sloppy than Tyrion's and she wants to be able to move around) and when Sansa goes to the Godswood, he thinks it is excessive piety (in reality she is preparing her escape).

If anything, Sansa pulled the wool over his eyes and was very cynical about the whole relationship with Tyrion right from the start. She never forgot what her eventual goal was, and it wasn't to make Tyrion happy.

His best option, so far as I can see, would have been to go through with the ceremony and then move Sansa out to a manse somewhere and visit her as little as possible. For all of Tywin's strength, one thing he couldn't do was force them to consumate their marriage, and moving Sansa out of the city seems to me like a good way for Tyrion to manage the dueling demands of "she must be your wife" and "I refuse to sleep with her."

Well, as other said Tywin would probably have put down his foot at some point and forced Tyrion to quit fooling around. He did offer Sansa to visit Braavos, but by that time Sansa was already on the verge of escaping (if she saw no chance to escape she might have accepted that, I suppose) so she did her icy courtesy thing instead.

I don't think moving her out to some manse would have been acceptable to the Lannisters as a whole either (probably including Tyrion himself). While theoretically married, in practice Sansa was still a captive of the Lannisters and moving her out of the well guarded and strong Red Keep (as far as the Lannisters know, anyway) presumably would have made it much easier for Sansa to escape. They would also want her visible at the side of Tyrion and to bow before king and queen, to leave no doubt to the court that she was in their power.

I wrongly thought Tyrion was going to the Vale but he still might. His buddies in the mountain clans think highly of him and might come to support him should he arrive with forces to take the Vale. A Lannister always pays his debts and he is pissed at his treatment in the Vale. He might want to make sweetrobin fly.

That would put him on a total collision course with Sansa though. Sweetrobin is family and now defacto her charge, and she loves the Vale and knows many of the Vale lords personally. An attack by Tyrions barbarians, style Gregor Clegane presumably, is hardly going to endear him to her.

The one Tyrion should be pissed about is Lysa Arryn, and she already went for a flight anyway. I would hope Tyrion wise and mature enough not to want the Vale ruined (like the riverlands and the north are) just to take revenge for Lysa's murderous tendencies.

Just like Tyrion needed to get out of his head for a second and consider that Sansa's horror of him wasn't about him per se but about what he represented, Sansa needed to get out of her head for a second and consider what *she* represented to him.

The problem is, Sansa did think about what she represented to him and she concluded that was Winterfell and the north, to be put in the pockets of the Lannisters (and ultimately, that was the main reason the marriage took place). Sure, Tyrion tried to tell her he wanted to be a good husband to her, that he bore her or her family no ill will, but she knows that "Lannisters lie". You can't really expect Sansa to go beyond that, not in those circumstances, not at that time.

If they had consumated the marriage, then this could have be good for the Starks in the long term.

I believe that Rickon will side with Stannis (for obvious reasons) just as the real Duke of Norfolk and Earl of Northumberland sided with Richard III. If Tyrion does end up being hand of Queen Daenerys of the great big war marchines, then Sansa could've used her position as "Wife of the Hand" to save Rickon at the very least. Then should Tyrion die, the Dowager Lady of Casterly Rock (and mother of the Lord of Casterly Rock) would not hesitate to use all the gold in the Westerlands to replenish her family... Of course the side affect of this would be that Sansa would be as sexually screwed up as Margaret Beaufort (atleast as Phillipa Gregory portrays her).

Thankfully this didn't happen as I would hate the thought of Sansa ending up with Tyrion (much as I love Tyrion).

It might still be what happens in the end though; Rickon/Manderly likely will side with Stannis, as did Jon already, and if Sansa remains in the south she may well end up in the position of attempting to talk Dany (and Tyrion and whoever else is with Dany) out of going on a rampage in the north.

[A Maidens Fantasy]

In another thread someone said "When Tyrion rides into town, the price of Moon tea triples" :laugh:

That is equally mean and hilarious at the same time. ^_^

You are right, it is actually a mean statement. Sorry :blush: But in the ASOIAF universe, I think we can safely assume that almost no one would run the risk of bearing a dwarf child, since people seem to firmly believe that your looks define your personality. The only exceptions seems to be Pennys family and curiously enough Tywin (This fact is the only thing that reedems Tywin IMO, he must really have loved Joanna. A man so proud he wipes out entire families, but he still keeps his malformed son alive. I am certain Randall Tarly would have killed Tyrion in the cradle if he had been his son.). So the women Tyrion has been with are highly motivated to not become pregnant, whether by using Moon tea or aborting the fetus some other way. Not to mention that since they are prostitutes, they are experts at this. I don't think we have seen any examples of women taking advantage of having a rich mans bastard (women having the child of a rich man, and living of the child support money), at most the men will take the child and leave the woman nothing (think of Obara). I see no reason why Tyrion should not be fertile.

Btw, there must be some effective contraceptive/abortificant in the ASOIAF universe if King Robert managed to only father 16 children, despite all his efforts.....