Defending Cat, again

[corbon]

Well there you have it. So she kidnapped the son of Tywin Lannister based on a spur-of the moment decision. What does that show about her character?

Decisiveness?

It shows when she has to make a decision she doesn't waffle.

It shows she can think on her feet.

Making a quick decision under unexpected circumstances does not prevent the decision being based on logic, nor does it make the decision emotional or irrational.

That's my problem with Catelyn. She doesn't think. She just acts based upon emotion and poor logic.

So apparently if weren't physically inside someone's head (and we are frequently, even mostly, not, even during a POV) then they aren't capable of thought while we aren't there?

Where is the evidence she didn't think about her actions (there is plenty she did).

And if you are the one insisting she must make decisions based on things she doesn't know (see below), I'd have to say, your judgment of someone elses logic isn't looking very weighty.

2. Please stop trying to use the perspective of Catelyn - using the thinking of a naive emotional character doesn't make your arguments any better.

Are you serious here?

Are you actually saying her decision making should be judged on the basis on information she doesn't have? Surely I am missing something?

The only rational way to judge the decision making capability of someone, and whether their decision was the best they could make at the time, is by the facts that they know at the time. You can't judge them fairly based on things they don't know!

You can judge the results of their decisions by outside information perhaps, but not the person making them, which is what we are discussing here.

Can we agree of this much?

[Nausicaä]

Why did she have to be nice to him? She wasn’t abusive to him; she simply ignored him. Is Jon her son, grandchild, nephew, cousin, friend, what? She wasn’t obliged to be nice to him and Jon won’t have some life traumas for not being loved by one person.

MTE. And let's not forget that Jon isn't just a kid that isn't hers, he's someone who lives in her home against her will, eats at the same table as her, etc. When you're forced to share your life with someone (who is there against all cultural norms, benefits greatly from the situation and a possible threat to your children's inheritance, no less) and can't get out of that situation, ignoring them is one of the nicer things you can do.

A Lannister or not, Sansa still has more rights on Winterfell than Jon.

<3

[lyvyathan]

Decisiveness?

It shows when she has to make a decision she doesn't waffle.

It shows she can think on her feet.

Making a quick decision under unexpected circumstances does not prevent the decision being based on logic, nor does it make the decision emotional or irrational.

So apparently if weren't physically inside someone's head (and we are frequently, even mostly, not, even during a POV) then they aren't capable of thought while we aren't there?

Where is the evidence she didn't think about her actions (there is plenty she did).

And if you are the one insisting she must make decisions based on things she doesn't know (see below), I'd have to say, your judgment of someone elses logic isn't looking very weighty.

Are you serious here?

Are you actually saying her decision making should be judged on the basis on information she doesn't have? Surely I am missing something?

The only rational way to judge the decision making capability of someone, and whether their decision was the best they could make at the time, is by the facts that they know at the time. You can't judge them fairly based on things they don't know!

You can judge the results of their decisions by outside information perhaps, but not the person making them, which is what we are discussing here.

Can we agree of this much?

There's a fine line between foolish behavior and decisive action.

If you're going to justify her by saying that she acted decisively and "on her feet" - you might as well justify Jamie for pushing out Bran through the window.

That probably had more justification going for it The boy had seen that their crime. He had to die or risk House Lannister and Barratheon going to war, and Cersei's children put to the sword.

(And no, I don't think Jamie was justified in pushing the boy out. Its Bran for God sake- everyone loves Bran even Catelyn :D What if he had been seen pushing him out? What if Bran had screamed Jamie's name out so loudly the whole castle had heard and came running and caught the two lovers running down from the tower.)

Are you actually saying her decision making should be judged on the basis on information she doesn't have? Surely I am missing something?

No. I'm questioning her logic pattern based upon her ill-founded decisions set within the context of the world of Westeros. I expect her to show some modesty when Maester Luwin brings Lysa's letter. Hey, you don't have clothes on, hello? Are you a Lady of House Stark or a tavern wench?

If Littlefinger had told her he had a couple of prime real estate castles to sell in Valyria, wouldn't you think that she was more than slightly foolish to buy them? Or are you going to trot out the excuse that she trusted LF like a kid brother and she was correct to trust him?

(In the same way, I'd condemn Ned's ill-fated decision to arrest Cersei and Joffrey straight after the death of the King. Again, you didn't need Crone-like powers to see the danger. Renly saw it and ran why didn't Ned? Run away you stupid moron. Run back to the North as fast as you can with your brave men and loyal soldiers. Rally Stennis and the other houses to the cause before you do the Palace coup. Oh wait, you're a bigger fool than your wife to trust Little Finger the man who boasted to half the court that he f@#ked your wife.)

I'm not expecting her to have Crone-like powers but

1. since the Night Watch recruiter Yoren had the brains to realize that her decision was more than highly dangerous and

2. since it took just a few sentences from Tyrion to put doubt into her case.

Tyrion: "How many times must I swear to that? Lady Stark whatever you may believe of me, I am not a stupid man. Only a fool would arm a common footpad with his own blade?"

(Hey even Lysa, who was a few cards short of a full deck, objected to her new found hobby of kidnapping dwarfs)

then surely what Catelyn did could not be justified.

I'd be very very much more sympathetic to Cat's case if she had waited until the moment had passed, laughed with Tyrion, thought about it for awhile, gone to see the bannermen sleeping in that Inn - and then arrange to have Tyrion kidnapped COVERTLY the next day when he left the inn- when there weren't like a dozen witnesses to her mad scheme.

"Oh wow, those thieves and robbers and sellswords. The King's Road is dangerous these days."

Actually if you think about it - did Cat know whether Tyrion didn't have Gregor and a dozen Lannister men marching 5 minutes down the roadside?

No, she just acted without thinking.

It was like ah bugger it - I'm going to grab this freak of Tywin Lannister because of the suspect evidence given by the unqualified testimony of my childhood friend whom I haven't seen in 15 years. I'm going to rally a bunch of strangers who barely know me to kidnap this dwarf then take him to see my sister across territory controlled by murderous mountain clans.

Yeah, brilliant plan. Sheer genius. Totally justifiable.

You can say that Catelyn acted boldly, mayhaps decisively, but was she justified?

[ARYa_Nym]

Robb is a lord choosing his heir. Jon is a bastard. One has a right to dismiss Sansa's claim, the other does not.

Robb was trying to give him the right to as was Stannis. Ultimately, he told Stannis no.

[David Selig]

I'd probably be able to forgive Catelyn for her coldness and outburst at Jon - if she didn't run off and do a whole bunch of emotionally driven idiotic actions that got a whole bunch of people killed.

I actually liked Catelyn in the book and show... but she really jumped the shark for me when in Clash of Kings

she let Jamie escape with Brienne on a plan that probably even Jingle Bell would have found wanting.

.

You keep saying that Cat made bad decisions because of emotions,but that's really not how I see it. Sure, she made mistakes, but they had very little to do with being overly emotional.

Take releasing Jaime for example - the emotional short sighted thing to do would've been to order Brienne to kill him after he admit pushing bran. But she didn't do that. She released a man who she loathed and would've loved to execute right now, because that was her only chance to get her daughters back. It wasn't such a bad plan either given what she knew at the time - Stannis was advancing on KL, so she had to act no or Sansa would never survive what looked like an inevitable taking over the city by the Stannis forces. Robb needed t have a heir, and Jaime has been totally useless as a hostage - his captivity hasn't restrained Tywin's forces from committing countless atrocities in the Riverlands.

Take Tyrion's capture too - she didn't get him because she hated him for the alleged attempt to murder Bran. She tried to hide from him, then arrested because she thought it would be too dangerous to leave him go after he had saw her. Not the right decision, but emotions had very little to do with it.

She was the one who repeatedly asked Robb and the other lords to make peace with the Lannisters even though her husband was executed by them, but the men were too emotional and caught up in their vengeance to listen to her. She acts purely on emotions much less often than most other characters in the series.If she was a man and did the same things, I really doubt many people would call her "too emotional" and use that to explain her mistakes.

[brashcandy]

It is only because we have the benefit of all the POVs that we know Littlefinger likely should not be trusted. We also know that Robert has become, while on the Iron Throne, a shadow of the man he once was, but that doesn't stop Ned from trusting him, childhood friends and all.

So, given that Littlefinger risked his life for Catelyn as a young man, why, as an adult, should she wonder whether to trust him, or not? Both Robert and Ned risked their lives for one another during the rebellion...is this so very different?

Moreover, if her main role was to provide a 'good role model' for her children, as some have suggested, then I would call her quite successful as it is obvious that despite how she may or may not have made her resentments regarding Jon obvious, she managed to raise children who loved him regardless--strong, independent, honorable children.

Actually, Ned wasn't foolish to trust Robert, he was foolish to trust Cersei... but onto Cat. Here's the thing:

LF didn't "risk" his life for Cat all those years ago. He got into a foolish duel because of his pride and obsession over a woman and was humiliated. After 15 yrs, yes, it's unreasonable to expect Cat to assume LF was holding a grudge, but it's not unreasonable to assume that she shouldn't have been willing to risk the safety of her family's life based on the evidence of a man she has not seen in 15 yrs alone.

Now, what boggles me is that those defending Cat over the Tyrion kidnapping claim that she was trying to avoid the worst happening, i.e. Tyrion going back to KL and telling everyone that he's seen her. Ummm, so how does kidnapping/arresting him make things any better? If Cat had thought logically, she would have realised that it was way too risky and dangerous to attempt any move on Tyrion. She could have gone to him, made up some lie (even if he didn't believe it) and be on her way. Tyrion might have told people he had seen her, but the Lannisters would have been foolhardy to act in any way without more concrete evidence.

However, when she kidnaps Tyrion she automatically forces their hand and brings the whole conflict that took place at Winterfell into Tywin's crazy ass focus. What can the Lannisters do now but retaliate? And who are the people left in KL at their mercy: Ned, Sansa and Arya.

Now Ned has his part to blame in the game for how he informed Cersei (about her incest) before making sure his children were safe etc etc, but it was Cat's kidnapping of Tyrion that began the open hostilities between them and blew the cover the Starks needed. There are two issues occurring at the same time here: Cersei's incest/bastard children, and Bran's attempted murder and both are handled extremely irresponsibly by Ned and Catelyn. If Cat could not even see her girls in KL because it might raise suspicions, how the hell does kidnapping Tyrion not raise suspicions? We can argue all the day is long that her hand was forced at this point, but based on the flimsy evidence she had, she would have better trying to mitigate the consequences of being caught than trying to boldly arrest a member of the most powerful House in the realm.

As for Cat's role as a mother, yeah, she did manage to raise honourable, good children, however she most definitely did not set a good example for them with her treatment of Jon. That Sansa is the only one who seems to hold slightly snobby attitudes to Jon is a miracle, but I think all the Stark kids took a lot of their inspiration on how to act and behave justly from Ned.

[The only son]

Simply put Cat is selfish in many of her actions. She ignores logic when dealing with the Imp. In dealing with Jamie she completely messes things up because of her concern for her children.. I get so tired of her whining "oh my poor Ned, oh my poor children". When it was HER actions that spelled doom for the Stark Family. Could she not see the possible consequences to her actions? I have no sympathy for her. I understand the reasons behind what she did, however she never considered the consequences of her actions to the ruin of her family.

[The only son]

This thread in order not to derail another thread,

Arrest, not kidnap. Although she was taking on authority she perhaps didn't quite own (but her absent husband did, and she pretty much had that at home, so its a case of geography more than anything else), she clearly tried to do everything legally and by due process.

Note that she actually released Tyrion because he won the trial - a trial that she knew was a biased joke and tried to stop, but could not. She wanted a fair trial in front of the King, so that she could get both justice for Bran and 'save' the realm from the grasping, treacherous, murderous Lannisters.

IMO she cares nothing for the realm or protecting it from the Lannisters not once in all the books does it mention Cat is for the protection of the realm, but in here private thoughts she is constantly thinking of her Ned and her Children. She cares about her family and that is it.

[oba]

There's a fine line between foolish behavior and decisive action.

I don't think the line's all that fine, and I don't think Catelyn was, in this instance, engaging in foolish behavior.

No. I'm questioning her logic pattern based upon her ill-founded decisions set within the context of the world of Westeros. I expect her to show some modesty when Maester Luwin brings Lysa's letter. Hey, you don't have clothes on, hello? Are you a Lady of House Stark or a tavern wench?

Hmm. It seems like you're using 20/20 hindsight (and, ironically, a highly emotional response. Damn that Catelyn, her actions caused harms to the Starks!!)

If Littlefinger had told her he had a couple of prime real estate castles to sell in Valyria, wouldn't you think that she was more than slightly foolish to buy them? Or are you going to trot out the excuse that she trusted LF like a kid brother and she was correct to trust him?

Does the (poor) sarcasm really help anything? Littlefinger had, from Catelyn's perspective, no reason to lie about the dagger. Littlefinger's a guy we've seen hoodwink just about everyone, even characters who have far more reason to distrust him than Catelyn did at that point in the story.

(In the same way, I'd condemn Ned's ill-fated decision to arrest Cersei and Joffrey straight after the death of the King. Again, you didn't need Crone-like powers to see the danger. Renly saw it and ran why didn't Ned? Run away you stupid moron. Run back to the North as fast as you can with your brave men and loyal soldiers. Rally Stennis and the other houses to the cause before you do the Palace coup. Oh wait, you're a bigger fool than your wife to trust Little Finger the man who boasted to half the court that he f@#ked your wife.)

Not to get side-tracked here, but Ned did see the danger. His reason for opposing Renly's plan, as he clearly states (and thinks), is because he objects to it on moral grounds. He's also not going to "run back to the North" when he feels duty and honor-bound to stay, despite knowing the risks involved. You're asking Ned to suddenly become a completely different character. We're also privy to his thoughts before he meets with Littlefinger regarding the gold cloaks. He thinks that Littlefinger is the best of a group of bad options (Pycelle is in the Lannisters' pocket, Barristan is too rigid, etc.) Decisions that turn out badly don't make characters dunces.

1. since the Night Watch recruiter Yoren had the brains to realize that her decision was more than highly dangerous

Catelyn knew her decision was highly dangerous. That's expressed clearly from her POV.

I'd be very very much more sympathetic to Cat's case if she had waited until the moment had passed, laughed with Tyrion, thought about it for awhile, gone to see the bannermen sleeping in that Inn - and then arrange to have Tyrion kidnapped COVERTLY the next day when he left the inn- when there weren't like a dozen witnesses to her mad scheme.

Hmm. I think the idea that Catelyn can go door-to-door in the middle of the night and then coverly abduct Tyrion without anyone noticing strikes me as extremely naive.

Actually if you think about it - did Cat know whether Tyrion didn't have Gregor and a dozen Lannister men marching 5 minutes down the roadside?

She knows he didn't have Gregor and a dozen guardsmen with him when he went to the Wall with Benjen, Jon, et al. Highly unlikely that he's met up with them somewhere between there and the crossroads. Catelyn doesn't know what Tyrion's intentions are or what might be coming after he's recognized her. That's sort of the point.

It was like ah bugger it - I'm going to grab this freak of Tywin Lannister because of the suspect evidence given by the unqualified testimony of my childhood friend whom I haven't seen in 15 years. I'm going to rally a bunch of strangers who barely know me to kidnap this dwarf then take him to see my sister across territory controlled by murderous mountain clans.

It's pretty clear why Catelyn takes Tyrion to the Eyrie, and Tyrion, the one who's being abducted, doesn't seem to think Catelyn's acting like a dunce in doing so.

"This is the high road," he gasped, looking at Lady Stark with accusation. "The eastem road. You said we were riding for Winterfell!"

Catelyn Stark favored him with the faintest of smiles. "Often and loudly," she agreed. "No doubt your friends will ride that way when they come after us. I wish them good speed."

Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned shewolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction.

[Alexia]

Littlefinger's a guy we've seen hoodwink just about everyone, even characters who have far more reason to distrust him than Catelyn did at that point in the story.

LF hoodwinked Ned Stark, Tywin and Kevan Lannister, Jaime, Tyrion, and Cersei, among many more.

Tywin sure bought himself some prime real estate in Valyria!

[ARYa_Nym]

When Ned and Cat are talking to LF in KL I found him to be extremely condescending. & he told Ned not to trust him.

They both misjudged him. I'm not sure why though. I didn't find him to be very respectful towards Ned.

[Lemon Cake]

-jelena-, on 13 October 2011 - 06:25 PM, said:

Why did she have to be nice to him? She wasn’t abusive to him; she simply ignored him. Is Jon her son, grandchild, nephew, cousin, friend, what?

I've seen statements like this so many times on this thread, and to be honest, I don't even know how to respond to them. I mean, if you don't already understand why one should be kind, or at least not cold and unfeeling, toward an innocent child... then I can't help you.

[David Selig]

When Ned and Cat are talking to LF in KL I found him to be extremely condescending. & he told Ned not to trust him.

They both misjudged him. I'm not sure why though. I didn't find him to be very respectful towards Ned.

Ned himself thought a few times that he doesn't trust Littlefinger, which makes his actions when he sent him to bribe Slynt all the more baffling. Littlefinger kept mocking Ned every time they met to the extend that I find it a somewhat implausible given Ned's rank.

[Cotter_Pyke]

And the facts are: Jon was not abused and Cat simply ignored him.

For 14 years?? Well, that sounds like abuse to me, emotional abuse that is.

[brashcandy]

I've seen statements like this so many times on this thread, and to be honest, I don't even know how to respond to them. I mean, if you don't already understand why one should be kind, or at least not cold and unfeeling, toward an innocent child... then I can't help you.

Yup, it's truly astounding. To argue that Catelyn did not have to be nice/kind/decent to Jon because he's not hers, or because she's legitimately mad, or because of anything, is shocking. In this day and age when we know the harm children suffer in homes where one parent is neglectful, rude, condescending, or just plain ignores them, and to STILL persist that it's fine and dandy what Catelyn did.... well as you said, no sense going further if people can't see the basic problem.

And FYI to all those claiming that ALL she did was ignore him, that's abusive.

[lyvyathan]

You keep saying that Cat made bad decisions because of emotions,but that's really not how I see it. Sure, she made mistakes, but they had very little to do with being overly emotional.

Take releasing Jaime for example - the emotional short sighted thing to do would've been to order Brienne to kill him after he admit pushing bran. But she didn't do that. She released a man who she loathed and would've loved to execute right now, because that was her only chance to get her daughters back. It wasn't such a bad plan either given what she knew at the time - Stannis was advancing on KL, so she had to act no or Sansa would never survive what looked like an inevitable taking over the city by the Stannis forces. Robb needed t have a heir, and Jaime has been totally useless as a hostage - his captivity hasn't restrained Tywin's forces from committing countless atrocities in the Riverlands.

Take Tyrion's capture too - she didn't get him because she hated him for the alleged attempt to murder Bran. She tried to hide from him, then arrested because she thought it would be too dangerous to leave him go after he had saw her. Not the right decision, but emotions had very little to do with it.

She was the one who repeatedly asked Robb and the other lords to make peace with the Lannisters even though her husband was executed by them, but the men were too emotional and caught up in their vengeance to listen to her. She acts purely on emotions much less often than most other characters in the series.If she was a man and did the same things, I really doubt many people would call her "too emotional" and use that to explain her mistakes.

OK, what did Catelyn know at that time when she released Jamie?

1. Her son would not have allowed the release of a major key hostage.

2. The Karstarks and many other Stark allies wanted him dead

3. Her son's hold on the leadership was fairly tenuous. He's what? 15? 16? years old at the time. And there were rumblings about his leadership from the get go.

How is helping Jamie Lannister to escape going to make her son look anything other than an incompetent child.

Of course you could say she couldn't have predicted that the Karstarks would have reacted so violently. Yeah, if she had the brain of Sansa. I mean, it doesn't take (prescience) or Crone-like intelligence to be able to see that her decision was going to harm Robb's prestige in the eyes of his followers, some of whom had their sons killed by Jamie Lannister himself.

What else does she know?

1. The roads are not safe these days. She herself experienced some of that "road rage" when she traveled to the Vale. Now, there's a war on. Its not just House Lannister that's on the warpath, there are brigands, broken men, sell swords - people like Bron whom she met at the Inn which was filled with such "scum" before the war.

2. What sort of plan is sending Jamie to Tyrion without any notification, formal or otherwise, together with a single female knight and and an old man along such roads? Cat herself had been nearly killed on the way to the Vale with a much bigger escort during peace time. Does she really think that now during a major war the roads are going to be any more safer?

Based upon what she knew - there was practically very little chance that Brienne could make it through safely to Tyrion and deliver Jamie and Uncle Frey safely. That is if they didn't encounter Lannister outriders like Gregor or Vargo who would have probably killed her because she even had a chance to wave a white flag.

However, she knew that there was a 100% chance that her actions would damage Robb's leadership. How bad? It doesn't take a person with prescience to realize that it would be pretty bad.

And all for what? Even if Brienne managed by some miracle to make it to King's Landing to meet Tyrion -

(And mayhaps Tyrion would have released Sansa from K.L)

(And that in itself was by no means certain because he) would still have to content with Cersei, her crazy son Joffrey and even if Tyrion did release Sansa to Brienne and she went back - (great, a beautiful maiden on the highway to hell with only one knight as her guard) dodging mentioned cut-throats, sell swords, Gregor etc.. and delivered Sansa back to mummy's arms, what then?

Yes, she gets back Sansa. But in terms of the geopoltical stakes - what's Sansa's worth? Robb could use her as a marriage bargaining chip. But is she really more valuable than holding Jamie Lannister hostage? (Well only to her mom of course) Once war had commenced, as a Lady of a Major House she should have realized that all thoughts of personal attachments should have been put aside.

(Sorry, this part went missing - You say that Robb needed an heir - but he had already married and iirc his new wife was with child - but if that wasn't correct - we have Sansa, true. I'm not even going to mention the bastard's name because that seems to offend some people. Now if you wish to claim that Sansa Robb's heir - an extremely important cornerstone block to his shaky kingdom - his heir no less - then why in the name of Stranger would you have her tramping down King's Road with only one knight as her sole means of escort? Any number of mishaps could have happened to her - and in face knowing of the treachery of Jamie/ Cersei and their evil father, not to mention the duplicity of that cunning dwarf - and this is information Catelyn is FULLY AWARE OF - she could only have been a total moron to expect that Sansa would arrive back safely.

Sansa and her knight would then have to brave the road back - and to avoid the mentioned brigands, outlaws etc.. iirc EVERY mentioned character in the world of ASOIAF who traveled along the roads without a substantial military escort met with some dreadful violence or mishap.)

So what does that speak to you about her emotional state of mind? Does it strike you as someone who has carefully thought things through, or as someone who is so emotionally driven that she commits a series of rash and stupid blunders?

I'm not saying that Catelyn is wicked. But you yourself can see that she is an utter moron for embarking for not one but a series of blunders. And, by criticizing Catelyn I'm in no way condoning the actions of the other characters.

You mentioned Tyrion's Abduction, I've already talked about what I thought about that in other posts, well kidnapping Tyrion on the King's Road actually isn't my gripe about her - its that she does it in full public view! Unlike the assassination attempt on her son, this one was being conducted in open public - with dozens of witnesses whom she could not hope to silence. Even Yoren and Crazy Lysa realize what a disastrous mistake she made - ie. the witnesses went to Casterly Rock and King's Landing to tell the news. And Tywin being Tywin - quickly mobilized his forces before even Cat reached Lysa's castle. Doing rash and stupid decisions is not the same as making bold and justifiable decisions. I hope you can see that distinction.

By the way, this doesn't excuse Robb for ditching his crucial marriage to the Frey woman and marrying the daughter of an enemy bannerman over a one night stand. That was also beyond stupid. But both negatives do not excuse the other.

Catelyn's mistakes stand out because she makes big ones throughout the series - she's consistent about that. And it forms a pattern which speaks extremely poorly of her behavior.

Anyhow, I'm done for the day.

If you would be so kind can you also please give me the page reference for the part where she begs her side to make peace with the Lannisters?

[Shaggydog Stark]

I've seen statements like this so many times on this thread, and to be honest, I don't even know how to respond to them. I mean, if you don't already understand why one should be kind, or at least not cold and unfeeling, toward an innocent child... then I can't help you.

This!

I just wanted to say this post sums it all up. I get Cat was resentful, I get she felt humiliated. I even empathize with her, but she should have had the courage to face Ned and confront him. Mistreating Jon is a cop out and it was WRONG!

It doesn't mean I hate her, but despite the fact that I like her, I recognize that she has faults. Liking her does not make her a saint and does not place her above reproach or criticism.

[Alexia]

I don't think a woman is obligated to treat someone forced into her life with warmth. With politeness, to be sure, but no more than that is required. Catelyn wasn't his mother and had none of the obligations of a mother to him.

[brashcandy]

I don't think a woman is obligated to treat someone forced into her life with warmth. With politeness, to be sure, but no more than that is required. Catelyn wasn't his mother and had none of the obligations of a mother to him.

Alexia,

Jon was not "forced" into her life. Ned's "mistake" was the problem here, not Jon. If she could get over Ned sleeping with a woman, she should be able to get over Jon - who did not ask to be born, therefore he does deserve to be treated with as much warmth as possible. That Catelyn is not able to muster even some geniality towards the boy, speaks to the kind of woman she is. And I can tell you, it's not very flattering.

[Alexia]

Jon was forced into her life against her will. She didn't want him raised in her household against all societal norms. She could have gotten over him just fine, had he not been in her household against all norms. She is not obligated to treat him with anything beyond standard courtesy and even Ned did not ask or expect warmth from her.

Ned's mistake was in bringing Jon into the household while refusing Catelyn even an explanation. The problem was never Jon's existence, the problem was his presence.