Defending Cat, again

[1234567]

Cat's fears regarding Jon usurping her children's rights was quite rational (although at the time a very unlikely fear) but her behaviour towards Jon is not. He is only a child and kindness costs nothing. Also she should want to foster good relations between Jon and his half-siblings to help prevent Jon growing up and try to claim Winterfell as his own.

I think the difficult with Cat's character is that she is a dutiful and kind person, but knows she is not at home in the North and never tried to fit in. In contrast look at how Dany and Viserys adapt to Dothraki culture: Dany succeeds in being happy because for a while she tries to be one.

Cat never tries to be Northern. Other than that her mistake was abducting Tyrion and trusting Littlefinger and letting Jaime go. Her other advice to Robb was good, but he ignored it.

[brashcandy]

It is very likely that Sansa, Rickon, and Jon will go to war against each other as a direct result of Robb's brilliant idea. Robb's political legacy has nearly ruined the North and the Starks and I expect nothing besides suffering for his family members as a result of this bit of political insight from the King Who Lost the North, too.

Also, that evil Lady Hornwood didn't want her husband's bastard to inherit his lands either -- and Maester Luwin and other characters discuss this as a completely rational and logical feeling on her part.

Yes, of course. Jon will go to war against his siblings to fight for a place that he refused to take when Stannis offered it to him. Sansa will move against her own baby brother and continue to carry out LF's plans, and Stannis will magically disappear from the North along with the threat of the Others, oh and the Boltons too! All these things will happen - Jon will let Robb's decree go to his head (didn't we always know he's a theiving SOB - all that tainted bastard's blood), Sansa won't give a shit anymore, she'll turn into Cersei 2 and mow down anyone who stands in her way, and poor Rickon- well anything can happen with him.

Might I suggest to you that had Robb followed Catelyn's wonderful advice - Winterfell would right now be in LF's control and he wouldn't even have to make a play for it through Sansa?

[ARYa_Nym]

Actually, none of them saw him as an equal. I won't fish for when Bran and Robb think about his bastardness (it exists), but I think this quote of Arya is enough:

If Sansa was gone too, there were no more Starks but her. Jon was on the Wall a thousand leagues away, but he was a Snow, and these different aunts and uncles the Hound wanted to sell her to, they weren't Starks either. They weren't wolves.

This must be true because in ASOS he compared himself to the hostage which says a lot to me.

"Arya...is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy."He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy."

Both Theon and Jon could have been treated worse but it doesn't mean that they had omg the best life ever there. They weren't equal to the rest and weren't Starks.

[oba]

Cat's fears regarding Jon usurping her children's rights was quite rational (although at the time a very unlikely fear) but her behaviour towards Jon is not. He is only a child and kindness costs nothing. Also she should want to foster good relations between Jon and his half-siblings to help prevent Jon growing up and try to claim Winterfell as his own.

Jon has/had good relations with his half-siblings, though. Cat's coolness towards him didn't really have much of an impact on this.

I think the difficult with Cat's character is that she is a dutiful and kind person, but knows she is not at home in the North and never tried to fit in. In contrast look at how Dany and Viserys adapt to Dothraki culture: Dany succeeds in being happy because for a while she tries to be one.

Cat never tries to be Northern.

I think any Viserys comparison is way off-base. The only thing Catelyn didn't do was convert to worshiping the Old Gods. Other than that, she seems to have adapted to the North quite well. Look at the advice she gave Jeyne after Robb executed Rickard Karstark:

When I first came to Winterfell, I was hurt whenever Ned went to the godswood to sit beneath his heart tree. Part of his soul was in that tree, I knew, a part I would never share. Yet without that part, I soon realized, he would not have been Ned. Jeyne, child, you have wed the north, as I did ... and in the north, the winters will come."

I'm also curious as to how trying to be more Northern would have made a difference. I doubt it would have impacted her treatment of Jon. Even in the North, it wasn't traditional for bastard children to be raised alongside trueborn ones.

Catelyn's not Viserys or Lynesse Hightower. Also, in fairness, Dany doesn't really adopt Dothraki culture as her own, as evidenced by her actions after Drogo's death. A traditional khaleesi would have gone to join the Dosh Khaleen not, you know, take bloodriders of her own and decide to lead her own khalasar.

[ARYa_Nym]

Jon had sworn a vow which there's not a single precedent of anyone being released of and accepted back in the Westeros society.

There could of been one that we know of. Aemon was asked to leave the wall as well to become king. He just said no.

[Alexia]

Might I suggest to you that had Robb followed Catelyn's wonderful advice - Winterfell would right now be in LF's control and he wouldn't even have to make a play for it through Sansa?

You do realize that: 1) LF is Lord Protector for Robert until he reaches the age of majority; 2) LF is not very well liked by the other Vale lords; 3) the Starks are not a banner house to the Arryns and not about to become one; and 4) LF is currently in possession of the true Stark heir.

[1234567]

Also, that evil Lady Hornwood didn't want her husband's bastard to inherit his lands either -- and Maester Luwin and other characters discuss this as a completely rational and logical feeling on her part.

I maybe remembering this wrongly but I thought that it was Ser Roderik and Maester Luwin who said she may not be happy about it because her own son has just died, but they did think the son was probably the best choice in discussion with Bran.

[oba]

There could of been one that we know of. Aemon was asked to leave the wall as well to become king. He just said no.

Aemon went to the Wall after he'd refused to become king.

From Book 4:

"When last I passed this way, I saw every rock and tree and whitecap, and watched the grey gulls flying in our wake. I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard theGolden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

[brashcandy]

You do realize that: 1) LF is Lord Protector for Robert until he reaches the age of majority; 2) LF is not very well liked by the other Vale lords; 3) the Starks are not a banner house to the Arryns and not about to become one; and 4) LF is currently in possession of the true Stark heir.

1. LF is the most powerful man in the Vale, and Sweetrobin is being slowly poisoned 2. LF has managed to bribe most of the Vale lords and has effectively bought himself time to do what needs to be done 3. The Starks are a broken House, ripe for the picking as the Boltons realised 4. LF has control over Sansa for now.

[oba]

I maybe remembering this wrongly but I thought that it was Ser Roderik and Maester Luwin who said she may not be happy about it because her own son has just died, but they did think the son was probably the best choice in discussion with Bran.

Bran suggests Lawrence Snow. He's actually thinking of Jon when he makes the suggestion. Ser Rodrik says:

"That would please the Glovers, and perhaps Lord Hornwood's shade as well, but I do not think Lady Hornwood would love us. The boy is not of her blood."

[ARYa_Nym]

Aemon went to the Wall after he'd refused to become king.

From Book 4:

Well, if not him then there must have been a reason why both Robb and Stannis had the same idea of releasing Jon from his vows. It doesn't even matter though because all the northern lords will soon know that Ned's trueborn sons still live.

[Alexia]

I maybe remembering this wrongly but I thought that it was Ser Roderik and Maester Luwin who said she may not be happy about it because her own son has just died, but they did think the son was probably the best choice in discussion with Bran.

You remember correctly and it was looking very likely that they were going to go with the bastard. But nonetheless, they act as though it is a perfectly logical thing that she would be upset by this without even talking to her about it. It is an assumption they make without ever casting any judgement on her for it.

[brashcandy]

I maybe remembering this wrongly but I thought that it was Ser Roderik and Maester Luwin who said she may not be happy about it because her own son has just died, but they did think the son was probably the best choice in discussion with Bran.

The example of Lady Hornwood simply illustrates the irrational views held towards some bastards. She ends up in Ramsay Bolton hands and quickly learns what it means to really be an evil bastard.

[David Selig]

Yes these Vale cousins whom Robb had never met and knew nothing about. Random vale cousins that Catelyn suggested in desperation over his half brother whom he knows is honourable, respects the ways of the North and would do a good job. Yeah this was "dumb" in your estimation. Littlefinger would have loved Robb to be dumb enough indeed to put the North in the Vale's hands (the same Vale that didn't come to help Robb), he would be jumping in glee right now.

BTW, the only time Robb really acted emotionally and irrationally was when he married Jeyne - this whole "Robb is an idiot" sensibility that some people hold is largely unmerited.

What about sending Theon to his father? That was a clear case of Robb doing something dumb politically because he liked someone personally. Just like in the case of making Jon his heir IMO.

Then we have Robb's refusal to even consider surrender because the Lannisters killed his father even when his situation became really desperate.

[Ser Tom]

Hey what happened to my post from earlier? the jist was, Never really thought of myself as a Cat hater. I never knew I was an sexist ignorant bile spitter with some crazy ideas on the treatment of children till I read this thread. If your going to quote someones post you should read it first, people mentioning this the most seem to be the main offenders. Being told to read more history is laughable, if you knew me you'd know that.

You might think you've countered someones argument but that doesn't mean they have to agree with you or that you're right. Just an opinion.

There might also have been mention of a soapbox and drivel.

And again nice work Brashcandy :bowdown: You've saved me a lot of time in this thread.

Oh, I'm off to spout cat hate in the unpopular opinions thread. Though I realize that's not the right place for it

[Alexia]

The example of Lady Hornwood simply illustrates the irrational views held towards some bastards. She ends up in Ramsay Bolton hands and quickly learns what it means to really be an evil bastard.

She sure got her comeuppance, didn't she?

[oba]

Well, if not him then there must have been a reason why both Robb and Stannis had the same idea of releasing Jon from his vows. It doesn't even matter though because all the northern lords will soon know that Ned's trueborn sons still live.

Robb thinks that with the right inducement (i.e., Robb sends the Watch a bunch of men), the Watch will release Jon from his vows. He even brings up the dismissal of Ser Barristan from the Kingsguard as an example of rules being bent/broken.

Stannis really doesn't seem to care that it would be a tremendous breach of tradition.

In neither instance is any sort of precedent cited.

As you say, though, it's ultimately a moot point.

[brashcandy]

She sure got her comeuppance, didn't she?

I'm sorry you see it that way Alexia. I, on the other hand, feel nothing but sorrow and sympathy for what that woman endured :(

[Ghost Rider]

Actually, none of them saw him as an equal. I won't fish for when Bran and Robb think about his bastardness (it exists), but I think this quote of Arya is enough:

If Sansa was gone too, there were no more Starks but her. Jon was on the Wall a thousand leagues away, but he was a Snow, and these different aunts and uncles the Hound wanted to sell her to, they weren't Starks either. They weren't wolves.

Yes, it's clear that while they liked him, they didn't see him as an equal and while he wasn't, the emphasize on it surely comes from Cat. We also know that from Jon's own POV, when he says that he Winterfell was never really his home, the Lady Catelyn had seen to that.

Jon being declared Robb's heir was a dumb idea for many reasons. The Vale cousins were a better option, but Robb as usual was a total halfwit when it came to politics.

You know, I had to outright laugh when I read your post, no offense. :) Why should some unknown Vale cousins (Southrons!) be a better option then the half-brother Robb knows and estimates? I'm not sure the Southron cousins could have mustered much support among the Northern lords, while it was very likely the Stark looking, "you have more North in you then your brothers" and highly competent Jon would certainly appeal to the Northerners. He is Ned Stark's son after all.

It is very likely that Sansa, Rickon, and Jon will go to war against each other as a direct result of Robb's brilliant idea. Robb's political legacy has nearly ruined the North and the Starks and I expect nothing besides suffering for his family members as a result of this bit of political insight from the King Who Lost the North, too.

I don't see anything very bad coming from Robb's idea. And when he made the decision he thought everybody was dead anyway.I very much doubt that the Vale knights will be able to lead a host north in winter. When Manderly will reveal Rickon, Jon won't challenge Rickon's right. There could be some powerplay about who will be protector of Rickon since the boy wouldn't be able to rule in his own right. Anyway - we don't know when Rickon will be found. I suspect that Jon will have moved on by then.

Also, that evil Lady Hornwood didn't want her husband's bastard to inherit his lands either -- and Maester Luwin and other characters discuss this as a completely rational and logical feeling on her part.

Lol, and look where that got her!

The one to blame for Jon's lack of mother figure is Ned. He could've fostered him somewhere, which is a common practice in Westeros. He didn't even though it was obvious this would cause problems for both Jon and Cat.

I agree it would have been the best solution. He could have provided Jon with a surrogate family. It was rather naive of Ned to believe that Jon and Robb could grow up as brothers. While they certainly liked and respected each other, there was always the matter of Jon's bastardy between them and the fact that Robb would get everything and Jon nothing. Very good brought out in the talks Jon-Tyrion and Jeor Mormont-Jon. Personally I am surprised that Jon didn't feel more of a resentment toward Robb.

It's absurd that Cat being cold to Jon (which, while not the right thing to do, is a really minor fault IMO and very far from psychological abuse or the other overreactions claimed earlier in this thread) causes such vitriolic reactions, when practically everyone in the series, including most good guys, have done much worse things time and time again. Tyrion for example murders a bunch of people, treats every woman in his life terribly and savagely mocks 90% of the persons he meets yet he's the most popular character. Go figure...

Well, it would certainly be psychologically damaging if your half-siblings mother deliberately overlooks you, throws accusing looks in your direction, whenever she interacts with her children and you are close. Imagine Robb being lauded for something and Jon getting a resentful look. And no, I wouldn't expect Cat to love Jon as her own, but to treat him decently like any other human being, child or adult. That doesn't include ignoring. Children especially are very sensitive to this kind of thing and they are natural attention cravers. Many children behave "bad" specially to get attention from their parents even if this behaviour results in them getting beaten or otherwise physically hurt.

I cannot even imagine how hard it must be for a child to grow up in an environment you know you don't belong in, without a place. And the (mostly much younger anyway) half-siblings cannot make up for it because they don't even understand the predicament (see Arya asking Jon whether she is also a bastard, that must have hurt!).

So while it may not be the worst thing the world, it's certainly bad and potentially damaging to the mental health of the person.

And no, I don't condone Tyrion's or any other character's bad actions either, neither do I think the majority of the posters here do so.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't see anything very bad coming from Robb's idea. And when he made the decision he thought everybody was dead anyway.I very much doubt that the Vale knights will be able to lead a host north in winter. When Manderly will reveal Rickon, Jon won't challenge Rickon's right. There could be some powerplay about who will be protector of Rickon since the boy wouldn't be able to rule in his own right. Anyway - we don't know when Rickon will be found. I suspect that Jon will have moved on by then.

The will also went to Howland Reed who could use this as an opportunity to finally come out of hiding and tell the truth.