Defending Cat, again

[lyvyathan]

Very well said, Lemoncake. I'm so tired of seeing these arguments that somehow it's right and understandable and justifiable for Cat to behave in this manner to someone for 14 yrs. If she was directing such feelings to an adult, it would have been ridiculous, but to do it towards a child is especially outrageous.

As you well know, we have ALWAYS said that Cat was justified in being upset, angry, depressed, all those things. No one is denying Cat a right to her resentment but the point is that the kind of sustained resentment that she displayed (in the face of it not being deserved) is unnatural and spiteful.

For some reason I'd feel some sympathy towards Catelyn if she had stood on the Battlements of Winterfell as the party left for Kings Landing, and screamed abuses at Ned for fathering a bastard child 14 years ago.

[brashcandy]

For some reason I'd feel some sympathy towards Catelyn if she had stood on the Battlements of Winterfell as the party left for Kings Landing, and screamed abuses at Ned for fathering a bastard child 14 years ago.

Now now, Lyvyathan, she would be forgetting her lady's armour!

[lyvyathan]

Very well said, Lemoncake. I'm so tired of seeing these arguments that somehow it's right and understandable and justifiable for Cat to behave in this manner to someone for 14 yrs. If she was directing such feelings to an adult, it would have been ridiculous, but to do it towards a child is especially outrageous.

As you well know, we have ALWAYS said that Cat was justified in being upset, angry, depressed, all those things. No one is denying Cat a right to her resentment but the point is that the kind of sustained resentment that she displayed (in the face of it not being deserved) is unnatural and spiteful.

But oh no, the wonderful Cat dare not be criticized. If you do, you're sexist - you want her to stay in the kitchen and look lovingly over her babies or you're naive for expecting that a woman could be kind to a child that is not hers. Long live me being naive then! And oh yes, if you dare to criticize Cat, it means that somehow you condone all the other injustices done to people throughout the book!

As tiring as it is sometimes to see the sexist argument trotted out every time you critique a woman, in Cat's case with Jon it is particularly inapplicable. How is expecting a woman to be nice to a kid who doesn't ask to be born sexist? As you said, we would have expected the same thing from a man. One of the reasons Ned even refuses to tell Robert that Cersei's kids aren't his own is to prevent Robert from going batshit crazy and killing them, but it's too much ask for Cat to feel some sympathy for Jon's situation and treat him decently?

And let's not forget her reaction to Robb's suggestion that he become heir. A suggestion that some posters believe confirmed Cat's suspicions in the first place! Yes, so now that all of her children are dead or missing, Robb is left with the best choice in naming Jon and Cat, understandable, realistic human that she is, still holds a grudge in this dire situation (because you know the mere fact of Jon Snow being born means that there's a bastard able to inherit Winterfell) Normal? Rational? Logical? Emotional doesn't even cover her reaction here. Gone were the days for being emotional - her children were either dead, presumed dead, or at serious risk of dying, and Cat is hardpressed to leave Winterfell to Jon. In fact nothing covers Cat's feelings here except mean spite. A long held determination that so long as she walked the earth Jon Snow would get nothing to do with Winterfell. Yeah, Cat isn't on the level of some villains in Westeros, but those kinds of feelings right there are why the woman doesn't merit much admiration to me.

I think one reason why some posters dislike Catelyn intensely is because in the real world most people do not encounter mass murderers, rapists, people who flay women for fun, psychopaths, slave traders who butcher small children as a warning, etc...

But they do frequently encounter people who claim to hold the values of House Tully and yet do really mean spirited things as well as impulsive rash acts that get other people into all sorts of trouble. Most readers would know what its like to be in a situation where we are made to feel unwelcome or unwanted by such people. So Cat is a bit of a magnet for all that reader resentment.

[Kuther2000]

I understand why Catelyn acted cool toward Jon. She thought that he was treated equal to her children and he kind of was, but the only thing that he didn't have going for him was the Stark name. Catelyn really never had anything to worry about. Everyone keeps bringing up the Blackfyre pretenders, but they only sought the crown after they were legitimized by the King. So Ned would have had to get Robert to legitimize Jon for him to be a threat, we all obviously know that that would never have happened. No I do not think that Catelyn had to be a mother to Jon, but she could have at least acknowledged his existence. She obviously believes that fostering creates ties, friendship, and loyalty to people. Jon would have been a great person to have alongside Robb. I think that she has an irrational fear of bastards not just Jon. She didn't seem to happy when she realized Mya Stone was a bastard when she was helping her at the Vale.Why wouldn't Jon be the obvious choice after all her children as Robb's heir? He is Ned Stark's son. He was raised in Winterfell. He is a Northerner. He carries Northern ideals. The North wouldn't want Stark cousin's ruling them. They want a son of Ned Stark and True Northman.

[brashcandy]

The thing is people claim that Robb was a fool for trusting Theon - and maybe he was - but in that case, Catelyn is just as big a fool for trusting LF - a man she hadn't seen in all those years, and when she last did, he had been humiliated after fighting for her hand.

And I agree with what you said above Lyvyathan- we don't (if we're lucky) encounter mass murderers in our daily life, but we all know small minded people that can be vicious and petty, especially to those that don't deserve it. Cersei's killing of Robert's bastards is spectacularly evil, but Catelyn's mean spiting of Jon for all those years is pretty terrible too.

[oba]

I think that she has an irrational fear of bastards not just Jon. She didn't seem to happy when she realized Mya Stone was a bastard when she was helping her at the Vale.

I've posted this 3 times in this thread already. When Catelyn meets Mya, we know from her internal monologue that the only reason she's troubled to hear that the girl is a bastard is because she's reminded of Jon, a thought that makes her feel angry and guilty at the same time.

"Mya Stone, if it please you, my lady," the girl said.

It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply.

We get Catelyn POV chapters for 3 books, and nowhere is it indicated that she has an irrational fear, hatred, or anything else for bastards.

[Alexia]

I've posted this 3 times in this thread already. When Catelyn meets Mya, we know from her internal monologue that the only reason she's troubled to hear that the girl is a bastard is because she's reminded of Jon, a thought that makes her feel angry and guilty at the same time.

She then goes on to think of how much Mya reminds her of Sansa.

[oba]

And I agree with what you said above Lyvyathan- we don't (if we're lucky) encounter mass murderers in our daily life, but we all know small minded people that can be vicious and petty, especially to those that don't deserve it. Cersei's killing of Robert's bastards is spectacularly evil, but Catelyn's mean spiting of Jon for all those years is pretty terrible too.

How can you even compare Catelyn being cold towards Jon with Cersei having Robert's bastards killed? Seriously.

[David Selig]

You know, I had to outright laugh when I read your post, no offense. :) Why should some unknown Vale cousins (Southrons!) be a better option then the half-brother Robb knows and estimates? I'm not sure the Southron cousins could have mustered much support among the Northern lords, while it was very likely the Stark looking, "you have more North in you then your brothers" and highly competent Jon would certainly appeal to the Northerners. He is Ned Stark's son after all.

Reread the passage in ASOS where Cat and Robb discuss it, the reasons it was a dumb idea are clearly shown there. And don't forget that the Starks don't rule only the North at this point, they also claim the Riverlands, and the Riverlords would prefer a Southerner as their King. Robb has no idea Jon is competent leader, commander or politician, last time he saw him Jon was a 14 year old kid.

Jon was so "competent" as a leader in ADWD that he ended up assassinated by his own men

Plus take a look at all of Robb's political decisions. Pretty much all of them ended up in disaster. When it came to politics, he was hopeless.

[ARYa_Nym]

Everyone keeps bringing up the Blackfyre pretenders, but they only sought the crown after they were legitimized by the King.

Exactly. & if anyone should be upset it should be Jon imo. He was lied to. Ned allowed him to go to the wall before telling him the truth. I believe him to be legitimate so Ned, as a Baratheon loyalist and Usurper, was perfectly fine with allowing Jon to be weaseled out of his birthright.

Plus, Ned praised Robert often while they were growing up. So Jon will realize after the fact that the man who he thought was his father loved his father's murderer dearly. & Rhaenys and Aegon are his real brother and sister. They were butchered in an effort to please Robert.

[The hairy bear]

I don't think that people criticizing Cat for seizing Tyrion at the inn is aware that she actually prevented very bad thinks from happening by doing this, even if she was mistaken when accusing him of Bran's murder attempt.

Because, if she had left Tyrion go when he had identified her at the inn, thinks would have developed as follows:

1) When at KL Tyrion would have commented, at least with his dear brother Jaime, the unusual encounter he had had on his way south.

2) Jaime would have started wondering why Cat would travel incognito to KL. With what Jaime knew at the moment, THE ONLY explanation he could come with was that Bran had woken up, and that he remembered everything. So Jaime (and now Cersei) would have to deal with the fact that now Eddard knew of the incest.

3) That would force them to move fast, before Eddard acted. And the only way thei can save their skins is by murdering Robert.

4) So, we have basically the same situation as in the books (Robert dying), but much earlier. Without Renly having the opportunity to flee, or Eddard being able to at least make public accusations of Joffrey's bastardy.

5) Moreover, without Gregor and Lorch having sacked the riverlands and Jaime besieging Riverrun, the riverlords would neher have turned against Joffrey. So Robb's trip to the South would have been cut short.

So, all in all, I don't see why Cat's decision can be considered to be the undoing of the Starks when doing the opposite would bring the same results, if not worse.

Anyway. What does she have to arrest Tyrion with? On what charge? She has:

1. the Assassin's Dagger.

2. the claim by Little Finger that the Dagger belonged to Tyrion which he won at a Tourney.

3. the letter from her long distant sister - so distant that she doesn't realize is barking mad.

I can't see why you would not consider the direct accusations of two of the most influential nobles of the realms as enough to warrant an arrest. Even nowadays with the current law system, I can't think of a country where you would not be detained if accused by the minister of finances and the wife of the late vice president.

[Shaggydog Stark]

The thing is people claim that Robb was a fool for trusting Theon - and maybe he was - but in that case, Catelyn is just as big a fool for trusting LF - a man she hadn't seen in all those years, and when she last did, he had been humiliated after fighting for her hand.

And I agree with what you said above Lyvyathan- we don't (if we're lucky) encounter mass murderers in our daily life, but we all know small minded people that can be vicious and petty, especially to those that don't deserve it. Cersei's killing of Robert's bastards is spectacularly evil, but Catelyn's mean spiting of Jon for all those years is pretty terrible too.

I agree with this. I thought it mean spirited to lash out at Jon over Bran's sickbed, especially since he was trying to console her. I don't like bullies because they are all cowards deep down. Instead of lashing out at Ned she lashes out at Jon because she is too afraid to confront Ned. Jon is an easy target. This is the one aspect of Cat I do not like, however on a whole I like her.

On a different note I don't understand all this laying the blame of the downfall of the Stark family at the doors of any one person. I thought GRRM was trying to show us how the family failed together as a unit because of several bad decisions by different members of the family. Also I thought he was trying to show us how an honorable family was doomed to fail in a dishonorable society. Personally, I think the next generation of Starks when they put in an appearance will not be so honorable or merciful, having learned the lesson well from their predecessors. Anyway, that's how I read it, it's more about families and how they work together instead of sexism, maybe I am wrong.

[Kuther2000]

I've posted this 3 times in this thread already. When Catelyn meets Mya, we know from her internal monologue that the only reason she's troubled to hear that the girl is a bastard is because she's reminded of Jon, a thought that makes her feel angry and guilty at the same time.

We get Catelyn POV chapters for 3 books, and nowhere is it indicated that she has an irrational fear, hatred, or anything else for bastards.

I did not read what you posted. I don't believe everyone is going to read every single post that is on the thread.

[lyvyathan]

The thing is people claim that Robb was a fool for trusting Theon - and maybe he was - but in that case, Catelyn is just as big a fool for trusting LF - a man she hadn't seen in all those years, and when she last did, he had been humiliated after fighting for her hand.

And I agree with what you said above Lyvyathan- we don't (if we're lucky) encounter mass murderers in our daily life, but we all know small minded people that can be vicious and petty, especially to those that don't deserve it. Cersei's killing of Robert's bastards is spectacularly evil, but Catelyn's mean spiting of Jon for all those years is pretty terrible too.

Well yeah, thankfully I have not met a woman like Cersei who go around murdering babies - and hopefully I'll never meet someone like Jamie or smart alec dwarfs either - but I've had to endure women like Catelyn who say the most cruelest things and reckon they know it all and screw up spectacularly, then expect me to clean it up.

So Cat does get that negative attention because well, she's so normal. And again, people seek to justify her actions, behavior because its also normal to them.

[oba]

I did not read what you posted. I don't believe everyone is going to read every single post that is on the thread.

I know. That's why I posted the passage again. ;)

[brashcandy]

How can you even compare Catelyn being cold towards Jon with Cersei having Robert's bastards killed? Seriously.

If you had read closely, I never compared them. I'm stating that Cersei's is bad on a grand scale and Cat's was bad on a small scale. In terms of comparing them though, yes, both were designed to inflict harm on a child IMO and imagine if Cat had 16 bastards to deal with, she may have lost her mind!

[ARYa_Nym]

As for real life situations, Cat reminds me of women irl who have misplaced anger when a man cheats. The other woman is called the homewrecker but not the man who made his vows. They often try to stay with the man after that too. Misplaced anger is stupid to me really.

[David Selig]

I think one reason why some posters dislike Catelyn intensely is because in the real world most people do not encounter mass murderers, rapists, people who flay women for fun, psychopaths, slave traders who butcher small children as a warning, etc...

But they do frequently encounter people who claim to hold the values of House Tully and yet do really mean spirited things as well as impulsive rash acts that get other people into all sorts of trouble. Most readers would know what its like to be in a situation where we are made to feel unwelcome or unwanted by such people. So Cat is a bit of a magnet for all that reader resentment.

I don't think that's an important reason, except for a few readers. People like Tyrion, who mock everyone yet get really mad when someone makes a joke about them, and treat women terribly and are massive hypocrites, are quite common in real life too, yet he's a big fan favourite.

Cat mostly has 3 things going against her in terms of fandom popularity - she's a woman of the non-tomboy variety (which is a big problem for many fantasy readers), she dared antagonise the cliched hero Jon, and she doesn't have many witty lines (as we see with Jaime and Tyrion, you can be as much of a jerk as you want, you'd still be popular if you have that).

[oba]

If you had read closely, I never compared them. I'm stating that Cersei's is bad on a grand scale and Cat's was bad on a small scale. In terms of comparing them though, yes, both were designed to inflict harm on a child IMO and imagine if Cat had 16 bastards to deal with, she may have lost her mind!

I did read closely. You said: "Cersei's killing of Robert's bastards is spectacularly evil, but Catelyn's mean spiting of Jon for all those years is pretty terrible too."

Thank you for clarifying what you actually meant. Although I still disagree, as I don't think it's simply a matter of grand scale vs. small scale. Murdering children is, IMO, a whole other category. Mr. X is emotionally distant towards his wife. That makes him a bad husband. Mister Y has his wife killed. That makes him a murderer. Neither is a good action, but I don't think the difference could or should be described as just a difference of scale.

[lyvyathan]

I don't think that people criticizing Cat for seizing Tyrion at the inn is aware that she actually prevented very bad thinks from happening by doing this, even if she was mistaken when accusing him of Bran's murder attempt.

Because, if she had left Tyrion go when he had identified her at the inn, thinks would have developed as follows:

1) When at KL Tyrion would have commented, at least with his dear brother Jaime, the unusual encounter he had had on his way south.

2) Jaime would have started wondering why Cat would travel incognito to KL. With what Jaime knew at the moment, THE ONLY explanation he could come with was that Bran had woken up, and that he remembered everything. So Jaime (and now Cersei) would have to deal with the fact that now Eddard knew of the incest.

3) That would force them to move fast, before Eddard acted. And the only way thei can save their skins is by murdering Robert.

4) So, we have basically the same situation as in the books (Robert dying), but much earlier. Without Renly having the opportunity to flee, or Eddard being able to at least make public accusations of Joffrey's bastardy.

5) Moreover, without Gregor and Lorch having sacked the riverlands and Jaime besieging Riverrun, the riverlords would neher have turned against Joffrey. So Robb's trip to the South would have been cut short.

So, all in all, I don't see why Cat's decision can be considered to be the undoing of the Starks when doing the opposite would bring the same results, if not worse.

I can't see why you would not consider the direct accusations of two of the most influential nobles of the realms as enough to warrant an arrest. Even nowadays with the current law system, I can't think of a country where you would not be detained if accused by the minister of finances and the wife of the late vice president.

Mayhaps I remember incorrectly but didn't Jamie and Cersei do precisely nothing when they learnt that Bran had woken from his coma?

As for your last statement - they didn't make direct accusations - it was statements made behind closed doors. A direct accusation is when you accuse someone out in the open in public.

Just in passing, what was the reason why Catelyn didn't approach King Robert with the dagger and Little Finger's accusation and get the King to issue an arrest warrant for Tyrion?