Patterns and Parallels between certain characters

[FanTasy]

Parallels:

Ned and Robb: they both chose to act out of honor and these choices ruined them

Jon and Ramsay: both grew up as bastards, both made legitimate and heir by a king

Sam and Tyrion: both seen as and treated as misfits by their fathers

Randyll Tarly and Tywin Lannister: horrible, horrible fathers to at least one son

Catelyn and Cersei: both made bad, bad choices that made a lot of people suffer

[Eyron]

Miri Maz Duur we all know betrayed Dany, but if any of us was in her shoes, we'd probably do the same. She had just witnessed first hand what a Dothraki Khalasar does, she had just been raped numerous times and she devised a way to take out both Drogo and Rhaego, both a huge threat to people like her and their descendants. MMD was very justified in what she did I'll grant that.

Now there is Bowen Marsh, He watched his Lord Commander time after time commit acts he viewed as treasonous and stayed his hand mostly because of Stannis, he knew that if Stannis came back he would deal with them for killing Jon, but now a letter arrived that said Stannis had been defeated, and Jon is about to 1. Send Black brothers under the command of a wildling into almost certain death. and 2. Himself lead a band of wildlings into the realm. Now if Ramsay and Roose were to also defeat Jon, they would then march on the wall and that would be the end of them, So he was also completely justified in deciding to kill Jon. It really was for the sake and preservation of the watch, and they needed that preservation now more than ever.

So, If Jon comes back he would be just as justified in killing Bowen and Dany was in killing Miri Maz Duur even though they both can be argued to have not necessarily done something wrong. This is another reason I don't think Jon is dead because the similarities and parallels between him and Dany isn't completed until he comes back and deals with Bowen.

Thoughts?

There may be a difference in Danys and Jons approach to what happened to them. I think Jon probably can see Bowen Marsh point and agree with it. Maybe he will "cool down" heh and look more rationally on the matter after being dead-ish for a while. I kind of hope so, because he himself thought he was breaking his vow numerous times in ADWD. And he never really could convince himself that he didn't, he knew he could have withheld his advice for Stannis but he wanted to help him. He broke his vows, Bowen Marsh was right.

It was still a bad move on Bowens part, when you look at the situation at the wall, wildlings outnumbering the NW, a sorceress lurking in the castle, the war in the north and the only one holding it all together was Jon. Until recent events in Winterfell.

The NW thinks Stannis is dead and they still have Selyse and Shireen, so I guess they will be sent down to the Boltons if the NW is still standing when the assassination kerfuffle is over. Then Stannis who is NOT in fact dead will be very upset with the NW. It will go on and on.

[Old Gods Be Good]

Bran and Arya:

SIMILARITIES:

Both thought to be dead by pretty much everyone

Both are on very mystical paths, hidden away from the war and all the nonsense that surrounds it.

Both are studying under very mysterious teachers, to become what is still to be determined.

They're the only two Starks to have fully grasped warging as far as I can tell. Arya most recently with a cat.

They both had very strong relationships with Jon Snow and loved him like a brother

Both were a little against the grain and rebellious children. Arya always wanting to play with swords and get her hands dirty. Bran always climbing everything, much to his mother's dismay.

Both struggle desperately throughout the series to find out who they really are.

CONTRASTS:

I get the sense that Arya is a lot more fierce and vicious than Bran. She's become a cold-blooded killer at this point, whereas Bran has not shown a great liking for murder and violence. This could just be because of lack of opportunity.

Arya has become untrustworthy to everyone, and is completely capable of taking care of herself. Bran, luckily, has had people around him he can trust in Meera, Jojen and Hodor, even Summer, allowing him to not lose all faith in humanity the way it seems Arya has.

I think Arya's further along in excepting that the life she once knew is gone forever, and she's almost completely excepted it. Bran is coming to this realization a little slower, although, finally meeting Bloodraven should speed it up quite a bit.

[Cydal]

Both ignored women telling them to keep their direwolves close (Catelyn and Melisandre). Both were stabbed by a subordinate. Both were attacked after outlining a plan to retake Winterfell.

In addition to the many similarities, though, there are also very important instances here where Jon and Robb are polar opposites. If you look at Catelyn's POV conversations with Robb, it seems clear that Robb was inadvertently warging Grey Wind, but was afraid of that bond and pushed Grey Wind away because of it. Jon knows he's warging Ghost but has no problem with being a warg. Jon is assassinated in the North, Robb is assassinated in the South. Jon is surrounded by friends at his stabbing, and is stabbed at the center of his power base (Castle Black); Robb was surrounded by enemies, and was on their home turf (the Twins). The Freys got Robb's soldiers drunk at the Red Wedding and then slaughtered them; the wildling chiefs were calling for alcohol when Jon left the Shield Hall, but there wasn't time for them to get drunk before the stabbing, so there's a good chance they'll avoid the fate of Robb's soldiers. The Greatjon is attacked and taken prisoner; Wun Wun is attacked, and he dismembers his attacker. Robb alienates the Karstarks, Jon brings them back into the fold. Robb marries Jeyne, a girl from the Westerlands (the heart of his enemies' power); Jon "marries" Ygritte, a wildling, but where Jeyne provides Robb no advantages, Ygritte teaches Jon a lot about the wildlings. Robb worshiped the Old Gods and honored the Seven; Jon is purely an Old Gods worshiper.

Robb wanted to send 100 men to take the black to free Jon from his vows. Cersei wanted to send 100 men to take the black and assassinate Jon (ironically, also freeing him from his vows).

Robb "The Young Wolf" = Dareon "The Young Dragon": both achieved martial supremacy at the age of 14. Both won their battles but lost the war---Robb won every battle yet was destroyed, Dareon conquered Dorne but was unable to hold it and was killed in the Dornish insurgency. Bran Stark = Baelor the Blessed; Bran is a greenseer, a servant of the Old Gods, and due to his paralysis cannot fight; Baelor the Blessed was called the Septon King, and was so physically weak he ended up starving himself to death. Baelor never consummated his marriage to Daena, Bran is now wedded to the trees. Bran is Robb's younger brother, Baelor was Dareon's younger brother.

Tommen is like Dareon II: he's not as martial as King Robert's bastards, just like Dareon wasn't as martial as Bittersteel and Daemon Blackfyre. The story has gotten out that Tommen is really the bastard son of the queen and her brother the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, just as stories said Dareon was really the son of Queen Naerys and her brother, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard Aemon the Dragonknight. Robert's wenching is analogous to Aegon IV's many, many bastards. Myrcella is sent to marry a Dornish prince, Trystane, just like Dareon II's sister Daenerys was sent to marry a Dornish prince.

This hasn't been confirmed, but I think they're setting up Jon to be a Stark parallel of Daemon Blackfyre. If Robb's will legitimized him and named him heir, this could parallel how Aegon IV legitimized Daemon Blackfyre and gave him the sword ('naming' him heir, in the eyes of many). Jon is a warrior and a leader of men, his next oldest trueborn brother, Bran, is not. But because the Starks are the opposites of the Targs, Jon might succeed where Daemon failed: Robb's will will probably be unambiguous (giving a sword isn't as clear-cut) and the Stark kids will probably rally around Jon as the leader of the pack, where the Targ allegiances split vis a vis Daemon Blackfyre.

On that note, the Targs vs The Starks: fire and ice, the dragons and the direwolves. Dany notes that dragons do not plant trees, and what the Targaryens have built has either been destroyed (Summerhall, the Tower of the Hand, the unity of the Seven Kingdoms) or has been hinted will be destroyed in the future (the wildfire caches ready to incinerate King's Landing and the Red Keep, coupled with Cersei's love of burning things, etc.). The Starks descend from Brandon the Builder, and the structures Brandon built all remain after 8,000 years: Winterfell, the Wall, even Storm's End. Direwolves hunt in packs, dragons don't appear to do so; Dany's dragons didn't hunt together in the past and Drogon made no attempt to free Rhaegal or Viserion. As dragons don't hunt together, the Targs constantly fight one another: the Dance of the Dragons, the Blackfyre Rebellions, etc., and there are hints that Dany and Aegon will play out a Second Dance of the Dragons, possibly destroying each other in the process. Whereas the Starks seem to genuinely love each other far more than they love personal power, and will probably end up "running as a pack" rather than fighting each other for WInterfell.

Ghost was the albino runt of the litter. Bloodraven was the albino runt of his litter (the smallest and weakest of the Great Bastards and trueborn Targs), yet now Daemon Blackfyre and Dareon II are ashes in the wind, BIttersteel is a skull on a pole, and Bloodraven is still alive and in many ways more powerful than ever. Ghost is now the largest of the Stark direwolves and the ravens do so like calling Jon a King . . .

Dany/Jon: In practice, I thought a good portion of ADWD served to illustrate the similarities and differences between Jon's rulership skills and Dany's rulership skills. Jon goes to extreme lengths to learn everything he can about the wildlings and his fellow Watchmen; Dany never tries to learn anything about the Meereenese, and knows basically nothing about the people living in the surrounding pyramids. Dany suffers a devastating insurgency, Jon has the makings of an insurgency in the person of Janos Slynt, but a quick and strategic act of violence (Slynt's beheading) puts an end to open rebellion. Both suffered assassination attempts, but someone else took the damage for Dany (Belwas) while Jon took the damage on himself. Both had prophets constantly warning them about the future, and Dany became obsessed with sussing out the meaning of those prophecies where Jon ignores Melisandre. Dany refuses to ally with Cleon the Great against Yunkai, Jon allies with Stannis against the Boltons and Tormund against the Others. Both take child hostages, but Dany refuses to execute them where Jon makes it clear that he's willing to do so. Quentyn comes to Dany with no money or soldiers seeking her help against the Lannisters---she refuses him and tries to send him home, and sets off a chain of events culminating in the release of the dragons, the destruction of swathes of Meereen, and the possible deaths of the Yunkish hostages. Alys Karstark comes to Jon seeking his aid, with nothing but the clothes on her back, and Jon finds a way to help her, deal with the Magnar, and heal the breach between Stark and Karstark, all at the same time.

Jon/Ramsay: both are bastards, but both epitomize the unique qualities of their Houses; Ramsay is a murdering flaying psycho Bolton, Jon is an honorable warging winter-loving Stark. Both bear the sigil of their Houses: Ramsay has the "flayed man" in Theon, Jon has the direwolf Ghost. Ramsay was legitimized by Tommen, a bastard himself whose authority is recognized by the Southern lords but not by the Northern lords; Jon has probably been legitimized by Robb, a trueborn Stark whose authority is recognized in the north but not in the south. Ramsay's weaknesses are easy to read; Jon's weaknesses seem easy to read but in fact his true motivations (his family, his gods, his culture) are known to very few.

And on a random note: the Tyrells were once the stewards of House Gardener. The Pooles were stewards to House Stark. The Boltons try to use Jeyne Poole to usurp Winterfell after the other Starks are "dead", just as the Tyrells took Highgarden once the Gardeners were dead.

Wow! Simply Amazing

[kephv]

In addition to the many similarities, though, there are also very important instances here where Jon and Robb are polar opposites. If you look at Catelyn's POV conversations with Robb, it seems clear that Robb was inadvertently warging Grey Wind, but was afraid of that bond and pushed Grey Wind away because of it. Jon knows he's warging Ghost but has no problem with being a warg.

It's hard to say whether Robb was warging Grey Wind or not. If true, they both show the same discomfort with warging. Robb says something like "I'm not a wolf, no matter what they say" and Jon says "I'm a man, not a wolf." Add to what Varamyr says about him, he's clearly not too comfortable with being a warg, though he may be growing into it (Mel warns him he shouldn't try to push that away).

[tze]

It's hard to say whether Robb was warging Grey Wind or not. If true, they both show the same discomfort with warging. Robb says something like "I'm not a wolf, no matter what they say" and Jon says "I'm a man, not a wolf." Add to what Varamyr says about him, he's clearly not too comfortable with being a warg, though he may be growing into it (Mel warns him he shouldn't try to push that away).

GRRM has said that all of the Stark kids are wargs, so I think we can assume Robb was warging Grey Wind. But I'd disagree that Robb and Jon show the same discontent. Granted, we never see Robb's POV, but we do have things like this:

"A hall is no place for a wolf. He gets restless, you've seen. Growling and

snapping. I should never have taken him into battle with me. He's killed too

many men to fear them now. Jeyne's anxious around him, and he terrifies her

mother."

And there's the heart of it, Catelyn thought. "He is part of you, Robb. To

fear him is to fear you."

"I am not a wolf, no matter what they call me." Robb sounded cross. "Grey Wind

killed a man at the Crag, another at Ashemark, and six or seven at Oxcross. If

you had seen - "

Jon never expresses fear for his own sense of self when Ghost attacks his enemies, and by ADWD, his attitude is very "laid back". He knows he's a warg, and while he doesn't actively try to develop his powers, he doesn't think of those powers as something to be feared. (Arya's the same way.)

As to Varamyr's attitude toward Jon, we should remember that amassing warg power via multiple animals was Varamyr's entire raison d'etre. Jon isn't greedy for power like Varamyr was, and Varamyr saw that as an intentional fault, but we've seen Jon's POV and he doesn't express fear or discomfort over his skinchanging powers.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

Another example is In AGOT Back in Winterfell when the kids where fighting in the practice yard, Jon Snow tells Arya that "Bastards are not supposed to batter little princes. Which is Ironic if Jon turns out to be a Targ and we know Joffrey was a bastard.

haha brilliant!

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

Another example is In AGOT Back in Winterfell when the kids where fighting in the practice yard, Jon Snow tells Arya that "Bastards are not supposed to batter little princes. Which is Ironic if Jon turns out to be a Targ and we know Joffrey was a bastard.

haha brilliant!

[Wouter]

GRRM has said that all of the Stark kids are wargs, so I think we can assume Robb was warging Grey Wind. But I'd disagree that Robb and Jon show the same discontent. Granted, we never see Robb's POV, but we do have things like this:

Moroever, it was heavily implied that Robb warged Grey Wind to fight a passage around the castle "the Golden tooth", which was supposed to be unpassable without being being taken first. It allowed Robb to surprise and scatter the Lannister army training in the Westerlands.

[Hamster of Doom]

Damphair and the Hound:

- Both have abusive older brothers who leave them physically and/or mentally damaged.

- Both turn to fighting, drinking and whoring.

- Both find religion after a near-death experience.*

So, if GRRM takes this parallel any further, next time we see Sandor he's a raving Seven fundamentalist ... eek.

*(if SC = gravedigger)

[brashcandy]

Damphair and the Hound:

- Both have abusive older brothers who leave them physically and/or mentally damaged.

- Both turn to fighting, drinking and whoring.

- Both find religion after a near-death experience.*

So, if GRRM takes this parallel any further, next time we see Sandor he's a raving Seven fundamentalist ... eek.

*(if SC = gravedigger)

Well technically we don't know if Sandor has "found religion" in the traditional sense. He's on the Quiet Isle and receiving rest and counselling, but becoming a religious fanatic like Damphair would go against everything we've seen about Sandor's character.

[voodooqueen126]

How about parallels between Varamyr and Gregor.

both are serial rapists

both murdered their young siblings

they have a connection to dogs.

they are very powerful

[kephv]

but we've seen Jon's POV and he doesn't express fear or discomfort over his skinchanging powers.

He does. The quote I provided is from ADwD. He does seemingly lose a lot of that in the end, but there was that original uncertainty.

[tze]

He does. The quote I provided is from ADwD. He does seemingly lose a lot of that in the end, but there was that original uncertainty.

The full quote is this:

He was walking beneath the shell of the Lord Commander’s Tower, past the spot where Ygritte had died in his arms, when Ghost appeared beside him, his warm breath steaming in the cold. In the moonlight, his red eyes glowed like pools of fire. The taste of hot blood filled Jon’s mouth, and he knew that Ghost had killed that night. No, he thought. I am a man, not a wolf. He rubbed his mouth with the back of a gloved hand and spat

I didn't see that as Jon being uncertain whether or not he's a warg. Jon tastes blood and knows that Ghost has killed---Jon knows that he's a warg. But he doesn't seem afraid of that connection, certainly not as Robb seemed to be. Jon doesn't want to taste blood, but he doesn't try to distance himself from Ghost or put a halt to their connection. Ghost killed something and Jon tastes the blood, and Jon is reminding himself that he's a man, not a wolf, but he doesn't seem afraid of Ghost killing, as Robb feared Grey Wind killing.

Back on topic:

Dany and Cersei both encounter religious figures that they see as innocuous (the Green Grace and the High Septon), yet those figures are (potentially) great adversaries: the High Septon arrests Cersei and forces her to walk naked through the city, the Green Grace is almost certainly the Harpy.

Euron Crow's Eye wears a patch over his left eye, and his remaining eye is blue. Bloodraven has a single eye that is red. Euron calls himself the Crow's Eye, Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow. Euron's personal sigil is a red eye with a black pupil supported by two crows. Bloodraven has a single red eye, is a Brother of the Night's Watch (i.e., a "crow"), and is surrounded by ravens.

Quarth contains trees with black trunks and blue leaves, and the leaves are used in Shade-of-the-Evening, a drink of sorcerers. Westeros contains weirwood trees, trees with white trunks and red leaves, and weirwood paste is ingested by the greenseers.

[Eyron]

Euron Crow's Eye wears a patch over his left eye, and his remaining eye is blue. Bloodraven has a single eye that is red. Euron calls himself the Crow's Eye, Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow. Euron's personal sigil is a red eye with a black pupil supported by two crows. Bloodraven has a single red eye, is a Brother of the Night's Watch (i.e., a "crow"), and is surrounded by ravens.

Quarth contains trees with black trunks and blue leaves, and the leaves are used in Shade-of-the-Evening, a drink of sorcerers. Westeros contains weirwood trees, trees with white trunks and red leaves, and weirwood paste is ingested by the greenseers.

Holy crap! You are a genius!

Thematic crossovers or what. This goes straight into my bank of good ideas to put into the Big Questions theories.

[Cydal]

The full quote is this:

I didn't see that as Jon being uncertain whether or not he's a warg. Jon tastes blood and knows that Ghost has killed---Jon knows that he's a warg. But he doesn't seem afraid of that connection, certainly not as Robb seemed to be. Jon doesn't want to taste blood, but he doesn't try to distance himself from Ghost or put a halt to their connection. Ghost killed something and Jon tastes the blood, and Jon is reminding himself that he's a man, not a wolf, but he doesn't seem afraid of Ghost killing, as Robb feared Grey Wind killing.

Back on topic:

Dany and Cersei both encounter religious figures that they see as innocuous (the Green Grace and the High Septon), yet those figures are (potentially) great adversaries: the High Septon arrests Cersei and forces her to walk naked through the city, the Green Grace is almost certainly the Harpy.

Euron Crow's Eye wears a patch over his left eye, and his remaining eye is blue. Bloodraven has a single eye that is red. Euron calls himself the Crow's Eye, Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow. Euron's personal sigil is a red eye with a black pupil supported by two crows. Bloodraven has a single red eye, is a Brother of the Night's Watch (i.e., a "crow"), and is surrounded by ravens.

Quarth contains trees with black trunks and blue leaves, and the leaves are used in Shade-of-the-Evening, a drink of sorcerers. Westeros contains weirwood trees, trees with white trunks and red leaves, and weirwood paste is ingested by the greenseers.

Holy crap! You are a genius!

Thematic crossovers or what. This goes straight into my bank of good ideas to put into the Big Questions theories.

I know riiiiight, This Tze person never ceases to amaze me. Your theories always are almost as genius as .... well as mine :)

Also remember the similarities between shade of the evening and Weirwood paste as I pointed out in the Bran & Dany similarity. They first taste terribly and then taste good.

[Eyron]

Cydal, yes of course!

We can really make something out if this :)

I have to sleep on it though... My head is a blur from all theories and ideas right now.

[Stark@heart]

Here's something I just noticed. Hardly anyone has a mother.

Ned & Siblings, Jon Snow, Hodor, the direwolf pups

Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure & Littlefinger

Robert, Stannis & Renly

Cersei, Jamie & Tyrion

Gregor and Sandor

Sweet Robin

Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran & Rickon

There's probably more, these are just off the top of my head and the list covers most of the Major houses in some way.

How different things might have been if they all had mother's to answer to or a grandmotherly Queen of Thorns to scold them.

[FanTasy]

Here's something I just noticed. Hardly anyone has a mother.

Ned & Siblings, Jon Snow, Hodor, the direwolf pups

Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure & Littlefinger

Robert, Stannis & Renly

Cersei, Jamie & Tyrion

Gregor and Sandor

Sweet Robin

Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran & Rickon

There's probably more, these are just off the top of my head and the list covers most of the Major houses in some way.

Well, I guess the death rate of women was probably high, even if you are not pushed out of a moon door or killed at a wedding if you survived given birth. I like your list, but have to nag at one point ... we do not know that Jon Snow's mother is dead. I don't recall in the text that Ned or someone else said that the woman who was Jon's mother is dead. Of course if what many think Jon's mother is Lyanna we know she is dead. If it is Ashara or Wylla there is room for doubt.

[tze]

Ramsay Bolton nails up 63 Ironborn on wooden stakes. Dany nails up 163 Meereenese Grand Masters on wooden posts.

In the Great Pyramid, Dany chooses to sit on an ebony bench rather than the wooden Harpy throne. In the House of Black and White, Arya chooses to sit on a chair made of weirwood rather than a chair made of ebony.

Melisandre has a vision of Renly, in his green armor, defeating Stannis's army at the gates of King's Landing. The Green Grace of Astapor has a vision of Cleon the Great destroying the Yunish host at the gates of Astapor. Melisandre believes her vision has been altered by Renly's death. The Green Grace of Astapor has her vision after Cleon is already dead. Garlan Tyrell wears Renly's armor at the Blackwater, and people believe Renly was fighting from beyond the grave, thus fulfilling Melisandre's vision. The Astapori clap Cleon's corpse into his armor and send him after the Yunkish, but the charge fails and the Green Grace's vision does not come true.

Jon's ascension frustrates the ascension plans of Janos Slynt, a butcher's son. Dany's ascension indirectly facilitates the ascension of King Cleon, a former butcher.

Coldhands tells Bran that he is "your monster, Brandon Stark". Tyrion tells Connington that he will be "your little monster, if you like"