I Jon still a bastard?

[Azhole Ahai]

Hey guys help me shed some light on this matter: It´s been some time since I read the books (ever since the end of the 1st season on HBO and read the five books in less than a month), and I don´t know if this is going to matter at all as the story developes. So here it goes:

1) Should Jon Snow still be considered to be Baseborn or is he a legitimate Stark now?

2) If he were Jon Stark. Does it afect anything at all?

I hope you guys help me sort this out and also share some theories of your own regarding this topic and how it relates to the main story.

[Stannis the Great]

At the moment Jon Snow is considered base-born however a King could legitimise him as a Stark. Stannis offered to do so in ADWD but Jon refused because of his oaths to the Night's Watch. It is speculated that Robb Stark legitimised Jon before the Red Wedding and sent some of his bannermen with letters declaring Jon as Jon Stark and the heir to Winterfell.

However it would make no difference if he were Jon Stark because Jon values his oath to the Night's Watch. Although if he died and was reborn by Melisandre then he may be technically free of his vows.

There's also the theory that Jon Snow is not the son of Ned Stark and is actually the child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Robb may or may not have legitimized Jon in his will and named him his heir. I think most readers assume that he did, but it's not a certainty and has yet to be fully revealed. Jon also turned down Stannis' offer of legitimization and release from his vows.

So as of now, Jon is still legally a bastard. He can't inherit Winterfell, and is still bound to the Night's Watch.

Now, Jon may in actuality be the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but even if he is, very few people know about it, and as of now it has zero effect on his legal status. So he's still a Snow, not a Stark or a Targaryen ... yet.

[daenerys snow]

i agree with apple martini

but i will pointe out one little thing. jon snow, as a high born bastard, is bastard born not base born if i understood that correctly.

[Stannis the Great]

We don't know if he's high-born or not so he could be base-born or bastard-born.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

If he's really Rhaegar and Lyanna's maybe Rhaegar legitimized him before he died and that's why the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy till the very end. But well, that's just speculation, Jon is still a bastard so far.

[Brandon Baratheon.]

If he's really Rhaegar and Lyanna's maybe Rhaegar legitimized him before he died and that's why the Kingsguard was at the Tower of Joy till the very end. But well, that's just speculation, Jon is still a bastard so far.

I would very much like to hear more about this :D

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I would very much like to hear more about this :D

As I said, just speculation but I'm among the people who believe that Rhaegar married Lyanna and that Jon is their legitimate son. See, with Rhaegar and his heir Aegon dead, why would the Kingsguard be there watching over Lyanna if their duty is to protect the king or in this case, with the king dead, his heir? Shouldn't they be protecting the heir that it was supossed to be Viserys then? That could only mean that they were in fact protecting the real heir=Jon :D I'm sorry, my english is terrible :blushing:

[Brandon Baratheon.]

As I said, just speculation but I'm among the people who believe that Rhaegar married Lyanna and that Jon is their legitimate son. See, with Rhaegar and his heir Aegon dead, why would the Kingsguard be there watching over Lyanna if their duty is to protect the king or in this case, with the king dead, his heir? Shouldn't they be protecting the heir that it was supossed to be Viserys then? That could only mean that they were in fact protecting the real heir=Jon :D I'm sorry, my english is terrible :blushing:

Your english is fine. :)

I agree with Jon being Rhaegar & Lyannas son, such an awesome awesome theory.

Where in the books did it say the kingsguard were with Lyanna.

I've never heard that before and it's got me so so excited haha. :fencing:

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Where in the books did it say the kingsguard were with Lyanna.

In Ned's Tower of Joy dream in AGOT, he and his companions fight three of the Kingsguard before he goes inside to find Lyanna.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Your english is fine. :)

I agree with Jon being Rhaegar & Lyannas son, such an awesome awesome theory.

Where in the books did it say the kingsguard were with Lyanna.

I've never heard that before and it's got me so so excited haha. :fencing:

Uhm I think in AGOT? Ned went with other 6 men to rescue Lyanna from the Tower of Joy and there, guarding her, there were 3 members of the Kingsguard, one of them being Ser Arthur Dayne, the sword of the morning. Only Ned and one of the men who went with him survived and that man is Howland Reed, I think he has the key to all this mess but we haven't met him in the books yet ;)

Oops, Howlin' Holand Reed was faster xD

[Zar Lannister]

Hey guys help me shed some light on this matter: It´s been some time since I read the books (ever since the end of the 1st season on HBO and read the five books in less than a month), and I don´t know if this is going to matter at all as the story developes. So here it goes:

1) Should Jon Snow still be considered to be Baseborn or is he a legitimate Stark now?

2) If he were Jon Stark. Does it afect anything at all?

1) Jon Snow is still a bastard and should be continuing to be considered so until we get the official legitimization. Even if Robb could have written that letter, you know what happens to pieces of paper falling in the wrong hands (like when Cersei broke the paper with the King's seal).

2) If Jon were Jon Stark, he would trample Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya out of the line of heirs for Winterfell.

Just a small note: baseborn and bastard born aren't the same concepts: If someone is baseborn it means that none of his parents are noble. Bastard born means born of (a) noble parent(s), but in the wrong side of the sheets ;). I think I read the correction in a Dunk Story, there's a character always correcting Egg.

[Brandon Baratheon.]

In Ned's Tower of Joy dream in AGOT, he and his companions fight three of the Kingsguard before he goes inside to find Lyanna.

Uhm I think in AGOT? Ned went with other 6 men to rescue Lyanna from the Tower of Joy and there, guarding her, there were 3 members of the Kingsguard, one of them being Ser Arthur Dayne, the sword of the morning. Only Ned and one of the men who went with him survived and that man is Howland Reed, I think he has the key to all this mess but we haven't met him in the books yet ;)

Oops, Howlin' Holand Reed was faster xD

Awesome, i'm gonna listen to that asap as i can't even remember it haha

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Awesome, i'm gonna listen to that asap as i can't even remember it haha

That's like the most awesomest chapter ever!! :uhoh:

Just to clarify: It isn't really, but it's pretty neat!

[Greywolf2375]

2) If Jon were Jon Stark, he would trample Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya out of the line of heirs for Winterfell.

If he hadn't taken the Black he would be the heir, but at this point he is still out of that line since he is still LC.

[kissdbyfire]

Your english is fine. :)

I agree with Jon being Rhaegar & Lyannas son, such an awesome awesome theory.

Where in the books did it say the kingsguard were with Lyanna.

I've never heard that before and it's got me so so excited haha. :fencing:

AGoT, chapter 39, Eddard.

[Azhole Ahai]

First of all thank you guys for replying to my post. Now as I read your replies it came to my mind: Isn´t Jon closer to be letimized as a Stark (if he isn´t a Stark already) than a Targaryen?, I´m totalli IN for the Rhaegar-Lyanna theory , but how is he ever gonna be legitimezed as their child? just with Howland Reed´s word?, also there was someone else at tho Tower of Joy with Reed & Ned. Who do you think is that person/character? and can people believe in his/her word if that character were to stand in Jon´s favor as a Targaryen heir?

If Jon is now Jon Stark he wouldn´t really be heir to winterfell would he?, I mean Bran´alive (although nobody south of the wall knows but Sam). And that also messes up Ramsay Bolton´s plans right ?, cuz he married (fake) Arya to be the lord of winterfell but with Jon legitimezed that deal isn´t valid.

[Whatever]

First of all thank you guys for replying to my post. Now as I read your replies it came to my mind: Isn´t Jon closer to be letimized as a Stark (if he isn´t a Stark already) than a Targaryen?, I´m totalli IN for the Rhaegar-Lyanna theory , but how is he ever gonna be legitimezed as their child? just with Howland Reed´s word?,

and with a big army. A big army can get him pretty much everything

[Hound's She-wolf]

2) If Jon were Jon Stark, he would trample Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya out of the line of heirs for Winterfell.

If he was legitimized, he would rank ahead of the girls (so everybody after Sansa for her claim would be outta luck) but he would still be behind the true born sons Bran and Rickon.

And Wouter is right to a certain point, a big army can get him almost anything, but I think dragons can trump a big army.

[headtrip_honey]

i agree with apple martini

but i will pointe out one little thing. jon snow, as a high born bastard, is bastard born not base born if i understood that correctly.

We don't know if he's high-born or not so he could be base-born or bastard-born.

Just for clarification, "base-born" is a polite way to say "bastard-born." It has nothing to do with the nobility of the parents.

The MOST polite way to say it would be "natural son/daughter".