I Jon still a bastard?

[Dragonfish]

Against my better judgment, I am responding to zalim one last time.

I also said " Because Robb legit him" now if you put them both together, rest should be obvious.

No it is not obvious. The statement "Jon is no longer a bastard because Robb legitimized him" makes it seems as if Jon's legitimate status is a fact that is not in dispute. There is no implication in this sentence that others, whether inside or outside the story, may disagree.

[zalim]

Yes, I think this was at the heart of it all.

I think it gets tricky when we are posting in a forum like this. We have to be careful when we say we know something for sure... Because we may be 'sure', and others may be sure of the opposite. And the actual truth is, no one knows.

but come one really those things are pretty obvious now but offcourse we have to wait for the books to come to make things official.

Thera are very solid theories lke R + L = J etc. but as long as its not official through books, they are just theories.

[kissdbyfire]

but come one really those things are pretty obvious now but offcourse we have to wait for the books to come to make things official.

Thera are very solid theories lke R + L = J etc. but as long as its not official through books, they are just theories.

Just so.

:-)

[zalim]

Against my better judgment, I am responding to zalim one last time.

come on you know you want to lol on one side you call them ramblings and on other side somehow you are still forced to reply.

No it is not obvious. The statement "Jon is no longer a bastard because Robb legitimized him" makes it seems as if Jon's legitimate status is a fact that is not in dispute. There is no implication in this sentence that others, whether inside or outside the story, may disagree.

It is obvious.

-We all know, Robb hated Lannisters

-We all know Robb wanted revenge for his father and that was the reason for him to go against the throne.

-We all know, Robb was accepted as a king by many major houses from north but not all the houses of the westeros.

-We all know, ppl controlling the throne saw Robb as a traitor and the enemy of the throne.

-We all know Robb was fighting a civil war.

So if we all know all these small facts, how hard it is for anyone to see that when i say: " Jon is no longer a bastard because Robb legitimized him"

Only those houses who are loyal to Starks or Robb would accept this decree and not others. If everyone starts to agree with their enemies decrees, there wont be a war will it? lol agaiin you missed the obvious.

[Jem]

One of the clever things that GRRM does is make us jump to conclusions. He provides some small pieces of information and then allows our minds to fill in the blanks.

For example, he will show us a conversation between Robb and Cat about Robb wanting to legitimise Jon and make him his heir. Later, GRRM shows us Robb's bannerman signing witness to Robb's decision about his heir. Our minds fill in the blanks. It is never revealed who Robb has chosen for his heir, but our minds make the conclusion that 1 + 1 = Jon. That may or may not be true. We are never told and if you think that we were definitively told, you will have to read it again because it is just GRRM and your brain is tricking you.

Because I mistrust GRRM so much, I am inclined to believe that we are being misled and Robb actually did not choose Jon.

[Jem]

come on you know you want to lol on one side you call them ramblings and on other side somehow you are still forced to reply.

It is obvious.

-We all know, Robb hated Lannisters

-We all know Robb wanted revenge for his father and that was the reason for him to go against the throne.

-We all know, Robb was accepted as a king by many major houses from north but not all the houses of the westeros.

-We all know, ppl controlling the throne saw Robb as a traitor and the enemy of the throne.

-We all know Robb was fighting a civil war.

So if we all know all these small facts, how hard it is for anyone to see that when i say: " Jon is no longer a bastard because Robb legitimized him"

Only those houses who are loyal to Starks or Robb would accept this decree and not others. If everyone starts to agree with their enemies decrees, there wont be a war will it? lol agaiin you missed the obvious.

Huh?

[zalim]

One of the clever things that GRRM does is make us jump to conclusions. He provides some small pieces of information and then allows our minds to fill in the blanks.

For example, he will show us a conversation between Robb and Cat about Robb wanting to legitimise Jon and make him his heir. Later, GRRM shows us Robb's bannerman signing witness to Robb's decision about his heir. Our minds fill in the blanks. It is never revealed who Robb has chosen for his heir, but our minds make the conclusion that 1 + 1 = Jon. That may or may not be true. We are never told and if you think that we were definitively told, you will have to read it again because it is just GRRM and your brain is tricking you.

Because I mistrust GRRM so much, I am inclined to believe that we are being misled and Robb actually did not choose Jon.

You are right to mistrust GRRM, so do I specially after what he did to Ned Stark and the ending of DWD.

You dont believe that he legit. Jon, now thats a opinion and very much possible but i believe he did but i guess we will have to see wont we.

[zalim]

Huh?

never mind that ! :P

[kissdbyfire]

One of the clever things that GRRM does is make us jump to conclusions. He provides some small pieces of information and then allows our minds to fill in the blanks.

For example, he will show us a conversation between Robb and Cat about Robb wanting to legitimise Jon and make him his heir. Later, GRRM shows us Robb's bannerman signing witness to Robb's decision about his heir. Our minds fill in the blanks. It is never revealed who Robb has chosen for his heir, but our minds make the conclusion that 1 + 1 = Jon. That may or may not be true. We are never told and if you think that we were definitively told, you will have to read it again because it is just GRRM and your brain is tricking you.

Because I mistrust GRRM so much, I am inclined to believe that we are being misled and Robb actually did not choose Jon.

Couldn't agree more on GRRM luring us exactly as you describe. But in regards to what Robb declares in this document, I do fully expect it to be Jon being legitimised, and maybe being named heir. And one of the reasons I believe this is Robb and Jon's relationship as brothers. Yes, maybe they were cousins. But they grew up as brothers, regarded each other as brothers, and yes, loved each other as brothers. If we learn that Robb ended up listening to Catelyn's advices and didn't go for Jon when the big reveal happens, I'm going to be so disappointed with Robb is not going to be funny. Not everything has to be a bait...

[Glyn Tarvoke]

If we accept that Robb legitimized Jon to make him Jon Stark, asked for Jon to be released from his vows, and named Jon heir (something strongly implied), does this change anything important really? Stannis already made Jon almost that same offer and Jon decided to keep his NW vows.

If the message gets out widely, seems to me the biggest change will be Jon referring to himself as Jon Stark.

[zalim]

If we accept that Robb legitimized Jon to make him Jon Stark, asked for Jon to be released from his vows, and named Jon heir (something strongly implied), does this change anything important really? Stannis already made Jon almost that same offer and Jon decided to keep his NW vows.

If the message gets out widely, seems to me the biggest change will be Jon referring to himself as Jon Stark.

Well he was tempted when he thought about it but he doesnt want to break his vows and maybe thats why he refused.

If he dies and come back alieve somehow i think his watch will end.

[mor2]

If we accept that Robb legitimized Jon to make him Jon Stark, asked for Jon to be released from his vows, and named Jon heir (something strongly implied), does this change anything important really? Stannis already made Jon almost that same offer and Jon decided to keep his NW vows.

If the message gets out widely, seems to me the biggest change will be Jon referring to himself as Jon Stark.

he cannot, he is the Lord commander, sworn to forsake all titles and connections, what message it would send if he changed his name, Bastard or no it shouldbt matter on the wall.

his only chance to become a stark is if some king makes him and another dont take his head for it. it will also mean he will leave the watch, you cant have both. I'd rather see him on the wall and some other stark at winterfell, but we will have to wait and see what GRRM is planning for us after the current cliffhanger.

[kissdbyfire]

If we accept that Robb legitimized Jon to make him Jon Stark, asked for Jon to be released from his vows, and named Jon heir (something strongly implied), does this change anything important really? Stannis already made Jon almost that same offer and Jon decided to keep his NW vows.

If the message gets out widely, seems to me the biggest change will be Jon referring to himself as Jon Stark.

I agree. To me it will change only how I regard Robb.

[Verboten]

If Robb legitimized Jon this does not mean that Jon has retroactively been born as the product of a married couple. Bastard is an unfortunately llifelong label.

[Jem]

If we accept that Robb legitimized Jon to make him Jon Stark, asked for Jon to be released from his vows, and named Jon heir (something strongly implied), does this change anything important really? Stannis already made Jon almost that same offer and Jon decided to keep his NW vows.

If the message gets out widely, seems to me the biggest change will be Jon referring to himself as Jon Stark.

I think it would mean a lot to Jon if Robb has legitimised him and made him heir. The main reason I think that Jon rejected Stannis's offer of legitimacy and Winterfell is because Jon knows that, being a bastard, he is not entitled to Winterfell. Remember Jon remembering himself and Robb as children playing sword fights? Jon once said in play "I'm the lord of Winterfell" and Robb, who was normally so nice to Jon, said to him "You can't be the lord of Winterfell, you're a bastard". I think that this was extremely painful to Jon, probably even more painful than anything that Cat ever said to him, and it left a huge scar on his psyche.

But if Robb, of all people, offered Winterfell to Jon I think that it would mean a lot to Jon, so much that he might be tempted to take it. Considering the events of ADWD, Jon might be in a position to legitimately leave the NW. If he receives Robb's declaration at that time, Jon will know that Robb feels that Jon is entitled to Winterfell, once and for all.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

I agree. To me it will change only how I regard Robb.

Would it make you love Robb more, or less? And why? Just curious.

[kissdbyfire]

Less. Soooooo much less. His decision - or his will, his idea, since the decision hadn't been made yet - to make Jon legitimate and name him his heir is, IMO, the soundest and most logical one. Catelyn, because she hates Jon so much, wants him to name someone else - she makes a few different suggestions, I just don't recall the names. But all the people she suggests are distant Stark relatives. If Robb goes against his own initial assessment - which was sound and, IMO, the best option - just because 'mummy told me to', then I can have no respect for him whatsoever. If he changes his mind because Catelyn hates Jon's guts, then he is not the King in the North, he's a pathetic 'mummy's boy'.

[David Selig]

No, actually making Jon heir was a bad decision politically, and it would reflect well on Robb if he had realised it. The oaths to the NW are a really big deal in Westeros and especially in the North - releasing someone from them when it's convenient would create a dangerous precedent, and it would make Robb like like he cared about helping his half-brother instead of the long term interest of the North and honoring the traditions which have helped the NW do its jobs for millenia.

I don't expect Robb to have done it though since he was completely clueless when it came to politics and thinking too much like a boy.

[Buried Treasure]

One of the clever things that GRRM does is make us jump to conclusions. He provides some small pieces of information and then allows our minds to fill in the blanks.

For example, he will show us a conversation between Robb and Cat about Robb wanting to legitimise Jon and make him his heir. Later, GRRM shows us Robb's bannerman signing witness to Robb's decision about his heir. Our minds fill in the blanks. It is never revealed who Robb has chosen for his heir, but our minds make the conclusion that 1 + 1 = Jon. That may or may not be true. We are never told and if you think that we were definitively told, you will have to read it again because it is just GRRM and your brain is tricking you.

Because I mistrust GRRM so much, I am inclined to believe that we are being misled and Robb actually did not choose Jon.

Jem, you are a person after my own heart. I absolutely agree with you here, and it is nice to know there are other boarders out there that don't believe Jon was named. Do you have a theory on who he did name?

I agree with what Dragonfish said upthread about us not knowing for definate what Robb put in his decree. From the scene itself all we know is: - Robb had a prepared document saying who would follow him in the event of his death & that he commanded his lords to sign it.

Things we don't know:

- what happened to the document and if copies were made. (I doubt Mormont and Glover were given copies as they had already been told all the documents they were taking would be fakes in case of capure).

- If Cately even got to read the document (she is not a Lord in her own right and would not have been required to give her signature as witness).

- What the document said (ie if it was Jon that was named).

Most boarders think Jon was named based on the earlier discussion with Catelyn. I disagree, in the first scene he is a boy arguing with his mother, several days later he is a king in full command, announcing a set of plans he has thoroughly thought through beforehand.

Which is not saying I think he caved in and did what mummy said, but that he thought up a third course (as Robb has a track record of). Leaving aside Jon's bastardy (which can be washed away) there are still several problems with him as heir:

- his being in the NW

- him being (in the eyes of the Northern army) another untried boy (Robb knew he would be capable but the rest of the army at best remember Jon as a sullen youth).

- he brings nothing in terms of supporters, swords or alliance to the kingdom, and Robb's main concern is strengthening the kingdom.

[lojzelote]

Maybe my memory deceives me, but wasn´t there - afterwards the matter of an heir was settled - that Catelyn didn´t look very happy? It would speak for the fact it was really Jon, whom Robb has chosen.

It´s possible I have got this wrong, it´s almost half a year since I´ve done my last re-read, and my books are lent to a friend.

P.S.: Sorry for my lousy English, it´s not my mother tongue.