The Black Library

[nickg]

I haven't read any of the HH series, but I have the first 3 at home now. I'll probably start them in the next week or two. I peeked inside the first book, and I liked what I read, but it's Abnett so I expected to. Other than him, I have only read Mitchell, Farrer, and Dembski-Bowden. I liked all of them though so hopefully I will feel the same about the others. Speaking of Farrer, I finished the Enforcer Omnibus today. As 40k goes, they were excellent. I would love to read more from him, especially stories following someone outside the Guard or Space Marines.

[Antonius Pius]

....Both are great but Know No Fear... its the best Heresy book. It beats out all the others. A must-read for any BL fan.

Can you expand a little, without spoilers? Why is this one so great?

Also, I know The Horus Heresy is about, well Horus, and his defection, but what can you tell me about the series itself? Do the different authors all follow their own characters? Is the time-line well-attuned? Or does, for instance, Abnett write about different aspects/part of the galaxy/heresy than McNeill does? Some insider perspective is greatly appreciated.

[Jon AS]

Also, I know The Horus Heresy is about, well Horus, and his defection, but what can you tell me about the series itself? Do the different authors all follow their own characters? Is the time-line well-attuned? Or does, for instance, Abnett write about different aspects/part of the galaxy/heresy than McNeill does?

The series is a mix of stand-alones and more closely connected books that try to portrait various aspects of the events leading up to the Heresy (and presumably culminating with the Emperor defeating Horus during the Siege of Terra).

BL has a group of HH writers (at least Abnett, McNeill and Dembski-Bowden being permanent members) who meet periodically to discuss the series and its progression to ensure some continuity (apparently they still manage to mess up sometimes, though).

Since everybody knows how the story is going to go, one can just pick and choose which books to read.

I've read The First Heretic, A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns which were all pretty good (TFH being the best). I had some issues with PB, but it's definitely better than any Gaunt's Ghosts I've read, but probably not as good as Ravenor. I think Abnett simply does better with stories focussing on small groups of characters, not big military operations.

I'm not getting around reading Fear to Tread, since it's going to be about Sanguinius and ever since reading a story about the Siege of Terra way back in WD 161 (okay, I had to look that up...) he's been my favourite Primarch. His breaking a Greater Daemon with his bare hands was too cool for my teenaged self to resist being impressed, I guess.

[Antonius Pius]

Ah, OK. Thanks.

I thought the Siege for Terra took place in one of the first books, that would be illogical since the SoT is the culmination of the HH, isn't it?

[Nukelavee]

The HH books, because they deal with so many different characters, aren't really sequential - overall, it's vaguely GRRM in its use of POV, showing differing views of events from different points in times.

Heh. tangent sorta: My close friend and I have worked together on a lot of projects in the wargames market, including games similar to 40k, including a lot of writing. We also played in a long kitchen sink rpg campaign, which died when gaming became a job. It came back as an excuse to write for fun, in teh form of a shared narrative that can border on fanfic, depending on inclination of whoever is writing (and how badly you want to screw over the other guy).

Yeah, Tommy-Bob threw a Changer of teh Ways at me a while back. So I killed it. WITH A FRAGMENT OF THE TRUE CROSS! Plus, a head fake with Judge Fear. Still trying to decide where on the badassitivityness scale an Archangel fits.

I'm also prepared to counter Tyranids with Vang Battlemasters.

[Jon AS]

I thought the Siege for Terra took place in one of the first books, that would be illogical since the SoT is the culmination of the HH, isn't it?

Yeah, the SoT is Horus' attempt to win the civil war by taking out the Emperor himself. It happens a few (7?) years after he originally openly rebels and hasn't been covered in any novel so far, I think. The overall narrative of the HH series starts several decades before the rebellion and most of the novels don't form a continuous sequence (for example The First Heretic covers events that take place well before and after those described in A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns).

[nickg]

Yeah, the SoT is Horus' attempt to win the civil war by taking out the Emperor himself. It happens a few (7?) years after he originally openly rebels and hasn't been covered in any novel so far, I think. The overall narrative of the HH series starts several decades before the rebellion and most of the novels don't form a continuous sequence (for example The First Heretic covers events that take place well before and after those described in A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns).

Am I right when I say the first three are basically a trilogy? I think I might start Horus Rising today.

[Lord of the Night]

Am I right when I say the first three are basically a trilogy? I think I might start Horus Rising today.

You are indeed correct. Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are the Luna Wolves trilogy and depict how Horus and his Legion fall to Chaos. All three are very good readers though the later books are better imo.

LotN

[Nukelavee]

Just picked up, umm, Blood Gorgons, by Henry Zou at a used bookstore today. This might derail my reading of the 3rd Instrumentalities and this very cool "historical fiction" telling of the "real" MacBeth.

Sometimes, I really want violent space opera. NOW!

[nickg]

Just picked up, umm, Blood Gorgons, by Henry Zou at a used bookstore today.  This might derail my reading of the 3rd Instrumentalities and this very cool "historical fiction" telling of the "real" MacBeth.

Sometimes, I really want violent space opera.  NOW!

Hah! I know the feeling. Interested in your thoughts on it once you have finished. I almost picked up Emperor's Mercy last week.

[Aximand]

Having played Warhammer 40K for as long as I can remember (not so much recently :frown5: ) I have always enjoyed some of the Black Library stories. I think my favorite one is still Storm of Iron by Graham McNeil. Honsou was one of the best characters I had ever read about. I also liked it because it was one of the first times when Chaos Space Marines were more than just faceless demon-worshipping bad guys, it started to give them some more depth (compared to what I felt GW had portrayed them as before).

I also enjoyed the Horus Heresy and some of the IA articles that were coming out at about the same time. It really changed the Horus Heresy from a vague event into this epic conflict. It also succeeded (for me at least) in making the Traitor Legions and Primarchs semi-sympathetic. They were either left with little choice but to turn to Chaos, like the Thousand Sons or Death Guard, or were unwittingly seduced/tricked, like the Luna Wolves or Emperor's Children. In particular Fulgrim really stood out to me, and has influenced my ideas about writing to a degree.

[Antonius Pius]

The HH books, because they deal with so many different characters, aren't really sequential - overall, it's vaguely GRRM in its use of POV, showing differing views of events from different points in times.

Yeah, the SoT is Horus' attempt to win the civil war by taking out the Emperor himself. It happens a few (7?) years after he originally openly rebels and hasn't been covered in any novel so far, I think. The overall narrative of the HH series starts several decades before the rebellion and most of the novels don't form a continuous sequence (for example The First Heretic covers events that take place well before and after those described in A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns).

You are indeed correct. Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are the Luna Wolves trilogy and depict how Horus and his Legion fall to Chaos. All three are very good readers though the later books are better imo.

Thanks. I'm moving Horus Rising up on my to-read-pile.

I also enjoyed the Horus Heresy and some of the IA articles that were coming out at about the same time. It really changed the Horus Heresy from a vague event into this epic conflict. It also succeeded (for me at least) in making the Traitor Legions and Primarchs semi-sympathetic. They were either left with little choice but to turn to Chaos, like the Thousand Sons or Death Guard, or were unwittingly seduced/tricked, like the Luna Wolves or Emperor's Children. In particular Fulgrim really stood out to me, and has influenced my ideas about writing to a degree.

This is what I was hoping. I'm relatively new to W40K, and most of what gets thrown around by the in-crowd goes right over my head. I know vaguely what a primarch is, and that some legions were seduced by Chaos or had nowhere else to go. Overall though, I'm a noob to the genre; I know Space Marines are super bad-ass and kewl and all, but it's easy to go full-on in cheese-mode with that, which I assume has happened a lot in the eighties/nineties. Which always had me a bit wary of the genre. Good to know GW has upped their game in this regard.

[nickg]

Thanks. I'm moving Horus Rising up on my to-read-pile.

This is what I was hoping. I'm relatively new to W40K, and most of what gets thrown around by the in-crowd goes right over my head. I know vaguely what a primarch is, and that some legions were seduced by Chaos or had nowhere else to go. Overall though, I'm a noob to the genre; I know Space Marines are super bad-ass and kewl and all, but it's easy to go full-on in cheese-mode with that, which I assume has happened a lot in the eighties/nineties. Which always had me a bit wary of the genre. Good to know GW has upped their game in this regard.

I'm pretty new to it myself, and what you just said is similar to how I feel as well. I haven't read much of anything about space Marines except the first two in the night lord trilogy ( which is good ). I almost wish I had started with the Heresy, because I literally knew nothing before I picked up Eisenhorn.

[Antonius Pius]

I almost wish I had started with the Heresy, because I literally knew nothing before I picked up Eisenhorn.

I'm sure there are still lots of hints/points that we'll miss, especially as HH is set up with a known outcome and mythology among the fans of W40K. Still, I started with Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, and I was nowhere near as lost as I thought I might be. I didn't know what Tyranids, and Kroot were for instance (still not overly sure - then again, it's a simple enough premiss that everything not-human is the enemy). All I knew was that I'd seen some Space Marines posters and stuff in the nineties.

Having said that, what I're read of at least Abnett and Mitchell is accessible enough, perhaps because they focus on the "normal" humans. For Reading Space Marines, with all the history along with it, some knowledge about what's what would have been helpful.

[Werthead]

Tyranids are basically the Zerg from StarCraft (but - and this must always be remembered - they came first) mixed in with the xenomorphs from the Aliens films and that's pretty much it. The Kroot are dog-soldiers who serve the Tau and tend to die a lot.

Mitchell has a new Ciaphas Cain novel out this month, The Last Ditch. Excellent news :)

[Antonius Pius]

Tyranids are basically the Zerg from StarCraft (but - and this must always be remembered - they came first) mixed in with the xenomorphs from the Aliens films and that's pretty much it. The Kroot are dog-soldiers who serve the Tau and tend to die a lot.

I pictured the Kroot more like less shaggy Chewbacca's with beaks. Now that I think of it, I don't even know if they have beaks. I do know Cain can't tell them apart. Or maybe those were Tau.

I know that when Tyranids are involved, the word "chitinous" gets a lot of use from Mitchell/Cain.

Mitchell has a new Ciaphas Cain novel out this month, The Last Ditch. Excellent news :)

Excellent indeed. How far does this go towards a new omnibus?

[Nukelavee]

It's a very dense history in many area's - keeping track of some things requires the wiki.

But - yeah, Tyranids, are bugs. Except when they aren't. They eat whole systems of biomass, adopt any "new" useful traits from that system's life, move on. Hive mind, with a hiarchy of "self-awareness" running down.

Primarchs are the "templates" for their Legion.

The HH books are good, because they show the variance between legions, and individuals. Th eAlpha Legion novel gives a look at what forces were like before marines, and you can see other human cultures with their own versions of posthuman troops.

[Jon AS]

I pictured the Kroot more like less shaggy Chewbacca's with beaks. Now that I think of it, I don't even know if they have beaks. I do know Cain can't tell them apart. Or maybe those were Tau.

I know that when Tyranids are involved, the word "chitinous" gets a lot of use from Mitchell/Cain.

You know you could just check the GW website to find out what they look like.;) And yes, Kroot have a sort of beaky mouth.

Excellent indeed. How far does this go towards a new omnibus?

I think they generally like to put three novels into one omnibus, so one more to go after this I'd say. Unless of course this is the last.

[Werthead]

Yeah, for the Cain books its three books per omnibus, so he'll need a third book (likely for 2013). The only problem is that previously BL has left it 2 years between the last book in a sequence coming out and the release of the omnibus, so the third Cain omnibus may not be released until 2015.

That's also the problem with Gaunt. The next omnibus, The Victory, will collect Blood Pact, Salvation Reach and the next two books in the series. But Abnett's workload is pretty intense, so I don't believe we're going to get the next Gaunt novel until early-to-mid 2013 and the one after that until some time in 2015, followed by an omnibus in 2016-17 or thereabouts.

I think I'm reaching the point where I'll have to start getting the books in these two series individually rather than waiting for the omnibus editions.

[nickg]

Yeah, for the Cain books its three books per omnibus, so he'll need a third book (likely for 2013). The only problem is that previously BL has left it 2 years between the last book in a sequence coming out and the release of the omnibus, so the third Cain omnibus may not be released until 2015.

That's also the problem with Gaunt. The next omnibus, The Victory, will collect Blood Pact, Salvation Reach and the next two books in the series. But Abnett's workload is pretty intense, so I don't believe we're going to get the next Gaunt novel until early-to-mid 2013 and the one after that until some time in 2015, followed by an omnibus in 2016-17 or thereabouts.

I think I'm reaching the point where I'll have to start getting the books in these two series individually rather than waiting for the omnibus editions.

Great news about the Cain novel. I dont think I own any of Abnetts novels outside of omnibus form ( the last two Gaunt omnibus editions have 4 books each. Kind of big, but that is an awesome deal ).